Your Mt.Rushmore of OVERRATED and Mt.Rushmore of UNDERRATED ... all time

[Overrated]

Most of the claim for Firsov being ranked so high really hinges on around 5 international tournaments against really weak teams and being in a great system.

The thing is that in his last best player award in 71 he was 17th in Soviet league scoring and the award is kind of doubling counting the WC's IMO.

Elite Prospects - Soviet Stats 1970-1971

1970-1971 regular season player stats for Soviet, including top goal scorers, most games played, PPG leaders and more.

www.eliteprospects.com

Those stats are a bit faulty though. Secondary assists were not counted at all, rebounded assists weren't counted either and even primary assists were counted sporadically. For example his assist numbers for 68/69 and 69/70 are missing all together. In 72/73 (his last season) he scored 25 goals in 32 games. I am not sure how much of a weight should we put onto these stats. Even Kharlamov (pre-injury) has many seasons where his domestic stats took a big dip but internationally he always shinned. Stat padding is also a thing especially when we're talking about some of the bottom tier teams.

I'm too young to have seen him play live and I was a huge fan of the russian system in the 70s and love total hockey but there are too many red flags in the resume of firsov to really place him top 70 all time if we are being fair here and comparing players equally across time and eras.

You're not too young to see his replays though. Plenty of high quality games from 69 to 72 are available on youtube.

 

[wetcoast]

Those stats are a bit faulty though. Secondary assists were not counted at all, rebounded assists weren't counted either and even primary assists were counted sporadically. For example his assist numbers for 68/69 and 69/70 are missing all together. In 72/73 (his last season) he scored 25 goals in 32 games. I am not sure how much of a weight should we put onto these stats. Even Kharlamov (pre-injury) has many seasons where his domestic stats took a big dip but internationally he always shinned. Stat padding is also a thing especially when we're talking about some of the bottom tier teams.

Sure that's a fair point but even in domestic league scoring his goal totals didn't stand out as outstanding either, sure they were top tier and his PK does add to his resume but still.

Let' take his 69 soviet player of the year award regular season he had 28 goals and quite a gap from the Big 4 in goals that year that included a 21 year old Kharlamov who had 37 goals to Firsov's 28 in 4 more games.

In the wC that year here are there lines.

Firsov 10-10-4-14
Kharlamov 10-6-7-13


Watching videos of these 2 guys and other Russian players I feel pretty confident that others would have done better had the Iron curtain come down in the mid 60s in an integrated NHL.

You're not too young to see his replays though. Plenty of high quality games from 69 to 72 are available on youtube.

No I have watched videos of him and guys like suchy and know about about some of the competition, ie a young Fran Huck and then factor in the soviet System and supporting players and ages of each guy Firsov just doesn't look all that impressive as some of his supporters would have us believe.

 

[JackSlater]

This forum had him 14th all time ahead of guy like Lidstrom/Potvin who have better resumes IMO and a lot of that is based on the 4 Harts and just doesn't really pass the smell test for me.

Like I said in my post the 30s isn't exactly known as the golden age of hockey of that of the best Dmen of all time either and the playoff results with such a HHOF laden roster just isn't that impressive is it?

I also think the lazy bullet points works both ways 4 Harts and essentially 7 Norris trophies can be seen just as lazy right?

For me the biggest thing I find in the HOH section on all time lists how much a player is elevated by winning the SC and the number of SC's and then guys like Dionne/Thornton and Ovi before his and McDavid to a lesser extent get blasted for not winning, just seems a bit inconsistent to me.

I have no idea what you are arguing against. It's fine if you think that Potvin or Lidstrom should be higher, I assume that there is a very marginal difference. I don't know what resume components you seem to be valuing, but the very same 4 Harts that don't pass your smell test are massive if you're just looking at resumes, to use the term you keep using. This would also be a section more attuned to the reality of Hart voting, the Norris, and defencemen than most places so that should be less of a factor than in general.

I clearly indicated that it's lazy to jut check off trophies, but what else are you basing it off? Shore has pretty much the equivalent of 7 or 8 Norris trophies and has the 4 Harts. None of us, I'm pretty confident, have seen Shore play a significant amount of time. His resume, the part that is easily accessible anyway, looks pretty much in keeping with his legacy.

This section is less likely than others to just take a binary view of Stanley Cups, so I don't know why that is a point you are trying to make. Shore has two Stanley Cups, he isn't Park or something. Is Shore the reason his team lost? I've seen some places that blame him for some losses, others indicate that he was the best player but tasked with too much.

It seems very strange to single Shore out as someone whose legacy doesn't match his impact when we can't see him play and contemporary opinion of his play indicates that he had massive impact.

 

[Overrated]

Sure that's a fair point but even in domestic league scoring his goal totals didn't stand out as outstanding either, sure they were top tier and his PK does add to his resume but still.

Let' take his 69 soviet player of the year award regular season he had 28 goals and quite a gap from the Big 4 in goals that year that included a 21 year old Kharlamov who had 37 goals to Firsov's 28 in 4 more games.

In the wC that year here are there lines.

Firsov 10-10-4-14
Kharlamov 10-6-7-13


Watching videos of these 2 guys and other Russian players I feel pretty confident that others would have done better had the Iron curtain come down in the mid 60s in an integrated NHL.

No I have watched videos of him and guys like suchy and know about about some of the competition, ie a young Fran Huck and then factor in the soviet System and supporting players and ages of each guy Firsov just doesn't look all that impressive as some of his supporters would have us believe.

Numbers for WC69 WC70 WC71 OG72

Vs top3 teams (written by @Batis)

Anatoli Firsov
Total vs other top 3 teams: 13 gp, 10 g, 7 a, 17 pts (1.308)
Versus Czechoslovakia: 6 gp, 4 g, 1 a, 5 pts (0.833)
Versus Sweden: 7 gp, 6 g, 6 a, 12 pts (1.714)

Valeri Kharlamov
Total vs other top 3 teams: 14 gp, 7 g, 6 a, 13 pts (0.929)
Versus Czechoslovakia: 7 gp, 2 g, 1 a, 3 pts (0.429)
Versus Sweden: 7 gp, 5 g, 5 a, 10 pts (1.429)

Boris Mikhailov
Total vs other top 3 teams: 13 gp, 7 g, 3 a, 10 pts (0.769)
Versus Czechoslovakia: 7 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts (0.286)
Versus Sweden: 6 gp, 6 g, 2 a, 8 pts (1.333)

Vladimir Petrov
Total vs other top 3 teams: 14 gp, 6 g, 4 a, 10 pts (0.714)
Versus Czechoslovakia: 7 gp, 2 g, 2 a, 4 pts (0.571)
Versus Sweden: 7 gp, 4 g, 2 a, 6 pts (0.857)

Alexander Maltsev
Total vs other top 3 teams: 14 gp, 4 g, 5 a, 9 pts (0.643)
Versus Czechoslovakia: 7 gp, 2 g, 3 a, 5 pts (0.714)
Versus Sweden: 7 gp, 2 g, 2 a, 4 pts (0.571)

I would say Firsov Petrov and Yakushev would have done the best since they didn't mind physical play as much as some of the more frail players. Even as late as in 71 I found Firsov the most impressive out of the team:

 

[wetcoast]

Numbers for WC69 WC70 WC71 OG72

Vs top3 teams (written by @Batis)

Anatoli Firsov
Total vs other top 3 teams: 13 gp, 10 g, 7 a, 17 pts (1.308)
Versus Czechoslovakia: 6 gp, 4 g, 1 a, 5 pts (0.833)
Versus Sweden: 7 gp, 6 g, 6 a, 12 pts (1.714)

Valeri Kharlamov
Total vs other top 3 teams: 14 gp, 7 g, 6 a, 13 pts (0.929)
Versus Czechoslovakia: 7 gp, 2 g, 1 a, 3 pts (0.429)
Versus Sweden: 7 gp, 5 g, 5 a, 10 pts (1.429)

Boris Mikhailov
Total vs other top 3 teams: 13 gp, 7 g, 3 a, 10 pts (0.769)
Versus Czechoslovakia: 7 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts (0.286)
Versus Sweden: 6 gp, 6 g, 2 a, 8 pts (1.333)

Vladimir Petrov
Total vs other top 3 teams: 14 gp, 6 g, 4 a, 10 pts (0.714)
Versus Czechoslovakia: 7 gp, 2 g, 2 a, 4 pts (0.571)
Versus Sweden: 7 gp, 4 g, 2 a, 6 pts (0.857)

Alexander Maltsev
Total vs other top 3 teams: 14 gp, 4 g, 5 a, 9 pts (0.643)
Versus Czechoslovakia: 7 gp, 2 g, 3 a, 5 pts (0.714)
Versus Sweden: 7 gp, 2 g, 2 a, 4 pts (0.571)

I would say Firsov Petrov and Yakushev would have done the best since they didn't mind physical play as much as some of the more frail players. Even as late as in 71 I found Firsov the most impressive out of the team:

Sure that's all great but Firsov was also 154 lbs and I really have my doubts about his ability to be an impact player even in the late 60s expansion NHL.

That to me isn't a top 80 player of all time at all.

 

[Overrated]

Sure that's all great but Firsov was also 154 lbs and I really have my doubts about his ability to be an impact player even in the late 60s expansion NHL.

That to me isn't a top 80 player of all time at all.

Not sure to what degree I can trust the numbers. Kharlamov was supposedly 168 pounds according to wikipedia. Firsov actually looked stocky:

and his face screamed big boned

and he did play the body:

 

[wetcoast]

Not sure to what degree I can trust the numbers. Kharlamov was supposedly 168 pounds according to wikipedia. Firsov actually looked stocky:

and his face screamed big boned

and he did play the body:

View attachment 893718

I haven't seen any listing of his weight saying otherwise and that guy he checked didn't actually make what I would call a power move.

The quality of players in late 60s WC simply wasn't all that great to be honest.

 

[Overrated]

I haven't seen any listing of his weight saying otherwise and that guy he checked didn't actually make what I would call a power move.

The quality of players in late 60s WC simply wasn't all that great to be honest.

1971 CSSR was a very strong team. Drew Canada in SS72, beat Canada in SS74 and won a game off Canada in CC76. I would not say the strength of the CSSR team changed much during those years. Clean checked two guys in the matter of 5 seconds. Never seen Kharlamov or Maltsev eager to play the body like that.

 

[Tuna99]

You do realize he played with Mario for only 2 1/2 seasons right? Not sure how that invalidates the rest of his career.

(Thats not including 2005-2006, I can't remember if he played with Lemieux that year but even then, Lemieux only played 26 games.)

Mark Recchi isn’t a HOF a player, good player, not HOF. If Mogilby and Tkachuk aren’t in the HOF why the hell is Recchi?

Because he played in the right markets to get the votes - with Mario and in Montreal

 

[wetcoast]

1971 CSSR was a very strong team. Drew Canada in SS72, beat Canada in SS74 and won a game off Canada in CC76. I would not say the strength of the CSSR team changed much during those years. Clean checked two guys in the matter of 5 seconds. Never seen Kharlamov or Maltsev eager to play the body like that.

Sure they were a strong team because of the supporting cast and like I mentioned upthread Firsov was 15th in scoring in the Soviet league that year and fourth for his club team.

That 71 tournament had the immortal Gary Gambucci as the highest scoring non soviet player.

Henry Boucha was arguably the best North american player at the tournament....

 

[Tuna99]

If Palffy had anywhere near the health/durability of Recchi he'd rightfully be in the Hall of Fame. He finished with almost 1000 less games than Recchi.

And as others have pointed out the connection you've made between Mario's career and Recchi's is delusional. In Recchi's first 2 years he barely plays with Lemieux. Recchi's big year in Pittsburgh was one where Lemieux played 26 games. The next year he was traded part way through the season. He went on to put up great numbers in Philly, good numbers in Montreal and then went back to Philly to put up great numbers again before becoming an old man who was still able to contribute. Lemieux was involved in less than 50 of Recchi's regular season points, and that's including 7 from the 05-06 season. It's negligible.

Yeah, hanging around and being just good but for a long time isn’t HOF - and his 34 points in 24 playoff games and a Stanley Cup - Mario was really just an after thought that season because Recchi was doing it all for Pitt and their Cup.

It only took Recchi 10 more seasons to reach 34 playoff points - thats HOF

 

[MadLuke]

Yeah, hanging around and being just good but for a long time isn’t HOF

It tend to very much be, but Recchi here in 2 ways is a strange one to pick on.

577 goals, 1533 points, 147 playoff points, that just too much for the voters to pass on, that not your 500goals-1200 pts type.
3-4-5-10 top 10 points finish (3 of those Mario not involved at all, Lemieux for 26 games for one of them being a stretch)

Add, really nice to have:
3 cups, and a really big deal in one of them.

Nice trivia to have:
Was he the Iron Man at some point, in a rough era and not playing the easiest way.

 

[buffalowing88]

Mark Recchi isn’t a HOF a player, good player, not HOF. If Mogilby and Tkachuk aren’t in the HOF why the hell is Recchi?

Because he played in the right markets to get the votes - with Mario and in Montreal

I am anti-Recchi being in the HOF but I really don't think the Montreal tenure is the reason he's in. Those were some above-average seasons but nothing that made him a media darling at the time.

 

[Tuna99]

It tend to very much be, but Recchi here in 2 ways is a strange one to pick on.

577 goals, 1533 points, 147 playoff points, that just too much for the voters to pass on, that not your 500goals-1200 pts type.
3-4-5-10 top 10 points finish (3 of those Mario not involved at all, Lemieux for 26 games for one of them being a stretch)

Add, really nice to have:
3 cups, and a really big deal in one of them.

Nice trivia to have:
Was he the Iron Man at some point, in a rough era and not playing the easiest way.

I guess, but he’s still overrated. I probably saw him play 300 games in Montreal (I watch all the games) and was rarely impressed with him. Good player, played hard, IMO not a special player just good for a long time which to me isn’t HOFa

Tech hi was in the right places at the right time for those Cups.

You’re right he has the numbers - just not a guy anyone ever thinks about or can maybe even remember a single play he made in all that time

 

[The Panther]

By the way, Recchi's 34 points in his first playoff appearance must be by far the most by anybody in their first playoff season, right...?

 

[crashthenet]

Underrated -

Kopitar- So good and so often left out of the discussion around best active players. 3 straight conference finals and two cups. Terrific 200 foot player.

Potvin- Should have had a fourth Norris. PPG defense who could play the body all day.

Crosby- The injuries and pandemic robbed him of stats. The injuries and the misdiagnosis in particular. At a minimum he should crack the top 15 goal scorers, but he could easily have been in line for over 700.

Belfour- 5th all time in wins and a terrific win percentage. He was better than a lot of folks remember.

 

[Michael Farkas]

By the way, Recchi's 34 points in his first playoff appearance must be by far the most by anybody in their first playoff season, right...?

Best I could do was Eric Staal's 28 in 2006. I can't imagine anything out there beats 34...at least, nothing out there that you wouldn't already know about as a fan of the 80's Oilers haha

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

That's great but how do we square that circle with Dickie Moore being 68th all time on our list despite being 6th and 8th in Hart voting the 2 seasons he won the Art Ross?

I know that you value peak more than others but he only has 2 other seasons in the top 10 (both 8th and 4 Habs top 10 both years) and a really short prime then nothing relevant really.

Sure his playoff resume helps but was he ever really driving the bus or even sitting in the first row on those Habs teams?

Just not a very impressive resume for 68th all time IMO.

And for the record i like Clarke but his playoff resume doesn't really stand out and the 70s were really watered down and the Broad street bullies really amplified Clarke's resume quite a bit.

Not sure what my post has to do with Dickie Moore and his ranking. Pretty sure I didn't mention him.

Bobby Clarke's playoff record is probably the only reason he isn't ranked higher by most posters here.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

just angry zetterberg fans.ignore them

 

[MadLuke]

You’re right he has the numbers - just not a guy anyone ever thinks about

He is the quietest 1,500 pts nhler, the one you forget to put on those puckdoku type quiz.

 

[Boxscore]

Overrated:
1. Crosby
2. Niedermeyer
3. Lidstrom
4. Matthews

Underrated:
1. P. Esposito
2. Pronger
3. Stastny
4. Kucherov

 

[wetcoast]

Not sure what my post has to do with Dickie Moore and his ranking. Pretty sure I didn't mention him.

Bobby Clarke's playoff record is probably the only reason he isn't ranked higher by most posters here.

I know but I mentioned Moore and often people use the Hart record to promote 3 guys and then still have Moore in the top 100.

Heck if that's the case they must have Kuch easily ahead of Moore now one would think.

I think Clarke is probably ranked too high already as his prime was really 5 ish years and his playoff and international resume don't really boost him given his ranking.

Frankly there is probably a strong argument to have Forsberg ahead of Clarke. As even with his injuries his prime extends over a larger amount of games and his playoff/international resume is vastly superior.

 

[wetcoast]

I am anti-Recchi being in the HOF but I really don't think the Montreal tenure is the reason he's in. Those were some above-average seasons but nothing that made him a media darling at the time.

That being said the bar for post expansion wingers isn't really that high and there are at least 5 wingers with worse resumes in the HHOF right?

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Watch Gretzky his final year. And see how he still owned the ice. Coming right after his 16th year as leader in NHL assists, and no Rag scoring more goals than his old *** that year, so no milking a trigger man like Pivonka and Backstrom did for my Caps' Bondra, OV.

Overrated. Huh.

The biggest gap between reality and hype with Gretzky is paper thin.

He was everything said about him. And more.

Old man Gretz, with a piano on his back, scored a leading 10 goals, 20 points conference finals run:

He was magical that season with or without the scoring. The fact that people try to compare anyone to him boggles my mind. I had never seen him live and accepted that it was never happening, when this girl I worked with scored two tickets to NYR-NJD Sunday Night Hockey at MSG. It was NFL Conf Championship Sunday so it wasn’t like the game was made into a big deal, but it turned out to be a shutout for the Rangers against a great team, with Gretzky stealing the show. She got great seats and I was at the end of the ice where Gretzky delivered two primary dimes for assists, both in transition. I taped the game and when I watch the replay, Gary Thorne after the second assist said something along the lines of “Don’t tell me he’s not the greatest player who ever lived”. The hat trick against Florida was iconic but he was even better in the Devils series when they tried to get physical with him. He punished them for trapping by finding seams in the NZ for timing plays and even at 36 his anticipation for puck travel was unmatched. Crosby, McDavid, Mario will never touch him in IQ, which says a lot.

 

[Hobnobs]

Nice trivia to have:
Was he the Iron Man at some point, in a rough era and not playing the easiest way.

Was he? At which point? Because I thought at least Brind'Amour was the iron man of the dpe or is it something stupid like with Larry Murphy that he missed a game somewhere? Even though they played way more games than anyone else.