Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[BraveCanadian]

Gotta love the random HF trolls who know better than NHL players about good defense.

Never change. Never ever change.

Sidney Crosby Voted 'Most Complete Player' in NHLPA Player Poll | Pittsburgh Penguins.

"Crosby was named “the most complete player” on 38.37% of ballots. Of the 589 players who voted on this question, 226 chose the Pittsburgh captain."

Pretty sure, being the "most complete player" includes defense.

But what would NHL players know when we can listen to random commenters who cheer for a rival team?

Most complete is very subjective. As HO pointed out above your post.

The funny part is that the article you posted names McDavid as the player with the most votes from players when asked who they would take to win one game.

 

[GreatGonzo]

He is a little off, but your calculation isn't perfect either. Here is a good article that goes into it a bit when McDavid was making his run last playoffs Draisaitl, McDavid, Hyman, Bouchard & the NHL’s Greatest Playoff Scoring Runs

Basically Malkin's 09 adjusts to 40 points, with nearly double the goals that McDavid put up.

You heard it here, folks…

Adjusted 40 points with more goals is better than McDavids actual 42 point post season…

“The calculation isn’t perfect.” You don’t say

Most complete is very subjective. As HO pointed out above your post.

The funny part is that the article you posted names McDavid as the player with the most votes from players when asked who they would take to win one game.

Pretty sure he was also voted on as most difficult to play against and was second in something like, “mose dangerous player in the defensive end”

Either way, the players know…right @pi314

 

[BraveCanadian]

You heard it here, folks…

Adjusted 40 points with more goals is better than McDavids actual 42 point post season…

Crazy that with how blessed Pittsburgh has been for talent over the years it is always coulda shoulda woulda propping up their stars. Just be glad they were as successful as they were!

Except poor Jagr who played on thin teams while getting mugged night in and night out. He’s actually underrated by many.

 

[Golden_Jet]

He is a little off, but your calculation isn't perfect either. Here is a good article that goes into it a bit when McDavid was making his run last playoffs Draisaitl, McDavid, Hyman, Bouchard & the NHL’s Greatest Playoff Scoring Runs

Basically Malkin's 09 adjusts to 40 points, with nearly double the goals that McDavid put up.

6.9% higher from 36, is 38.5 points,
Do I need to correct all the math in here.

Why are we discussing Malkin’s points in 09, vs Crosby’s 31 points.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Only Gretzky and Lemieux have a comparable or better resume through their first 9 years than McDavid.

People keep talking about winning. Crosby won one cup through his first 9 years and team achievements are heavily team based. He wasn’t even voted as the most important player to his team’s winning cup run that year. McDavid did something this year in the playoffs that only 2 other players have done, broke one of Gretzky’s records, and became the 2nd forward to win the Smythe on a losing team.

Furthermore to battle this winning nonsense, Crosby has 201 playoff points in 180 playoff games. Great numbers. McDavid has only 84 less points in 106 less games played. He’s going to make that gap up and he’s going to do so very quickly. He has a chance at chasing Gretzky’s playoff record.

Sid is great, but McDavid is going down as a top-5 player of all time when it’s all said and done.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Crazy that with how blessed Pittsburgh has been for talent over the years it is always coulda shoulda woulda propping up their stars. Just be glad they were as successful as they were!

Except poor Jagr who played on thin teams while getting mugged night in and night out. He’s actually underrated by many.

Jagr is probably overrated at this point, he seems like the GOAT complimentary player though

 

[DitchMarner]

I did a deep dive into this 2-3 years ago. I'll have to look for the links tonight.

The reason why both "sides" are confident they're correct is because it comes down to how the question is defined.

If we're talking about defensive play, in isolation, then Crosby is nothing special. I think he's roughly average. Maybe a bit better.

If we're talking about two-way play (ie looking at the overall impact of both his offense and defense), then he's one of the most impactful players of all-time.

To illustrate the point - the first category is looking strictly at defensive play. That involves taking the toughest defensive matchups, playing on the penalty kill, and ultimately minimizing the number of goals allowed when that player is on the ice. These players generally don't score much, but that's not their role. Think about Bob Gainey and Guy Carbonneau.

The second category looks at all-around play. Most of the players who look good in this category (Bobby Orr, Gordie Howe, Ray Bourque, Bryan Trottier, Bobby Clarke, Chris Pronger, Peter Forsberg etc) are good-to-great offensively, and good-to-great defensively. But sometimes a player can look really good even if they're not at all focused on defense in the conventional sense (Gretzky, Jagr, etc).

Ultimately, what's relevant is how much a player helps his team outscore the opposition. I don't really care he brings elite offense and poor defense, or it he's above average in both categories. Crosby has never been elite defensively (aside from a few small cherry-picked stretches), but he doesn't need to be. He's a historically great offensive talent, and roughly average defensively. That results in him being one of the greatest even-strength performers in NHL history, and he's vastly improved his team's goal differential when he's been on the ice. (So has McDavid, for the record).

Yes, I've written in the past about how I think some people stress "defense" when they really mean impact on goal differential. In Crosby's case, he's definitely great at the latter. When comparing him to certain players who also score a lot in that regard, I'm sure he has a decided advantage.

But when comparing him to Connor McDavid, I'm personally not convinced his impact on the score at five on five or at ES is greater. It seems some people want to say he's close to McDavid offensively but gives up a lot less the other way, meaning he has a considerable advantage when it comes to overall impact (five on five or at ES).

When I watch them, I see two guys who generally play offensive roles and outscore and out-possess the opposition. I'd like to see some data that explores how much of an overall impact one makes at Even Strength compared to the other. To me McDavid seems to be a superior PP player.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Jagr is probably overrated at this point, he seems like the GOAT complimentary player though

Don’t want to get off topic but thanks for illustrating my point.

5 time Art Ross winner is a complimentary player lol

 

[PainForShane]

Beating Gretzkys assist record in the playoffs isn’t a “raw total”, it’s an accomplishment.

Ok….good for you. It still stands, 42 points is the most a player has gotten not named Gretzky or Lemieux. Sorry if this troubles you.

Seems like all Gonzo knows how to do is count. And then try to pretend that's not actually what he's doing and / or all he's capable and / or interested in posting about. And as we all can see, his posts clearly show a lack of understanding of any of the arguments they're been inserted himself into.

@pi314 you're not wrong. That said 5 years is a long time to stay this ignorant. For me, I'm not going to ignore his posts because I find them highly entertaining.

In the meantime -- keep up the good work Gonzo. Your viewpoints are much appreciated from over here (and I'm sure from many others as well).

 

[bobholly39]

Most complete is very subjective. As HO pointed out above your post.

The funny part is that the article you posted names McDavid as the player with the most votes from players when asked who they would take to win one game.

I mean this is peak McDavid vs old Crosby - of course players vote McDavid for a game to win.

I think the better response would have been to say that on these player polls, reputation is always a huge influencer, which it is. Which isn't necessarily without merit - having a strong reputation is usually earned.

For what it's worth - I think if you polled NHL players about picking a player to win a game, and you could pick between peak Crosby or peak McDavid - I'm extremely confident Crosby would win. Again - reputation plays a big role, and Crosby has a big edge there.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Earlier you said trophy counting isn’t the way to go. You asked what “accomplishments” McDavid has done where only 2-3 other players have done the same or more, I provided a list. You then complain about raw numbers and form a strawman out of nowhere…So by accomplishments, do you mean trophies? Or…

Beating Gretzkys assist record in the playoffs isn’t a “raw total”, it’s an accomplishment.

I was pretty clear. Dominance over the 2nd place person in point totals, a firm grip on the Art Ross for a stretch where he doesn't lose it, or dominating the league a few times like he did in 2023, where he dominated in goals and assists. These are pretty objective metrics that are what really separated the tier above McDavid. Not only did it feel they were going to win every year, it felt like the field had no chance.

Ok….good for you. It still stands, 42 points is the most a player has gotten not named Gretzky or Lemieux. Sorry if this troubles you.

It doesn't trouble me one bit. Sorry you seem to think I don't enjoy watching McDavid because I also enjoyed watching Crosby.

Again, he’s the 3rd player in HISTORY to do it….you talk like everyone is getting 100 assist.

Well someone else got it in the very same season. Its such a meaningless accomplishment. Neither of the legendary 100 assist season players won the Hart. So weird.

I don’t see how Thornton had the better play making season. Seems like you are just looking for any way to discredit McDavid.

Because he dominated in a lower scoring era, well above his peers.

What? His stats aren’t inflated due to a “higher scoring era.” And 100 assist didn’t “inflate” his totals.

Hard to have a conversation with someone who can't come to a basic understanding of different scoring environments.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I mean this is peak McDavid vs old Crosby - of course players vote McDavid for a game to win.

I knew this would be the excuse, and it is fair, but it illustrates the weakness of player votes for the most complete player having meaning here.

If most complete meant what they were implying it did, then Crosby should be the pick for winning too, and he wasn’t.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Sid is great, but McDavid is going down as a top-5 player of all time when it’s all said and done.

Nuh uh, Hasek/Jagr/Lidstrom/Beliveau/Ovechkin will!

Did you know Ovechkin has more trophies than McDavid, and likely will have the goal record when its all over? Or how about Hasek with his run between 94-01? 6 Vezina, 2 Hart, 2 Pearson.

I think if you want to put McDavid as #5 all time that's fair. But its also fair if someone puts one of the above names there as well. McDavid isn't clear cut enough to gain any sort of consensus as de facto #5.

6.9% higher from 36, is 38.5 points,
Do I need to correct all the math in here.

Why are we discussing Malkin’s points in 09, vs Crosby’s 31 points.

Okay fine, Crosby's adjust to 33. So 9 less than McDavid, but he literally had double the amount of goals.

 

[PainForShane]

I knew this would be the excuse, and it is fair, but it illustrates the weakness of player votes for the most complete player having meaning here.

If most complete meant what they were implying it did, then Crosby should be the pick for winning too, and he wasn’t.

No, it's not an excuse. The guy will be 37 when next season starts.

Gretzky's not winning this poll either. Because he's old / retired and clearly not as good as he was in his prime. Which is what this entire discussion has been comparing.

Wtf are you even actually arguing rn

 

[bobholly39]

I knew this would be the excuse, and it is fair, but it illustrates the weakness of player votes for the most complete player having meaning here.

If most complete meant what they were implying it did, then Crosby should be the pick for winning too, and he wasn’t.

Yeah this doesn't make any sense.

McDavid is the best player in the world. Nobody here denies this. I literally don't think a single poster in this thread would deny that. Of course players pick him to "win a game" now.

Players don't view him as sold/responsible defensively. They view Crosby moreso in that role. Reputation helps Crosby too. So Crosby wins more complete player. Also easily predictable.

Different categories.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Yeah this doesn't make any sense.

McDavid is the best player in the world. Nobody here denies this. I literally don't think a single poster in this thread would deny that. Of course players pick him to "win a game" now.

Players don't view him as sold/responsible defensively. They view Crosby moreso in that role. Reputation helps Crosby too. So Crosby wins more complete player. Also easily predictable.

Different categories.

I knew this would be the walk back as well, but it was obviously being touted as demonstrating Crosby’s overall game being better.. which it isn’t.

McDavid will get his Selke votes too as he ages and the narratives change with them.. book it.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Hard to have a conversation with someone who can't come to a basic understanding of different scoring environments.

Exactly, when Mario and Wayne got 100 assists, the scoring environments were higher than today.

 

[Regal]

Gotta love the random HF trolls who know better than NHL players about good defense.

Never change. Never ever change.

Sidney Crosby Voted 'Most Complete Player' in NHLPA Player Poll | Pittsburgh Penguins.

"Crosby was named “the most complete player” on 38.37% of ballots. Of the 589 players who voted on this question, 226 chose the Pittsburgh captain."

Pretty sure, being the "most complete player" includes defense.

But what would NHL players know when we can listen to random commenters who cheer for a rival team?

I still think players tend to look at this as more specific than over-arching things like offense+defense, and it’s more “edge work, board work, deflections, puck handling, passing, backhand, etc” I think Crosby’s overall skill set is pretty vast, despite not being quite as dominant at any one thing anymore. I suppose to some degree defensive play would be included, but I don’t think it should be confused with best two-way player or best overall player.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I was pretty clear. Dominance over the 2nd place person in point totals, a firm grip on the Art Ross for a stretch where he doesn't lose it, or dominating the league a few times like he did in 2023, where he dominated in goals and assists. These are pretty objective metrics that are what really separated the tier above McDavid. Not only did it feel they were going to win every year, it felt like the field had no chance.

It doesn't trouble me one bit. Sorry you seem to think I don't enjoy watching McDavid because I also enjoyed watching Crosby.

Well someone else got it in the very same season. Its such a meaningless accomplishment. Neither of the legendary 100 assist season players won the Hart. So weird.

Because he dominated in a lower scoring era, well above his peers.

Hard to have a conversation with someone who can't come to a basic understanding of different scoring environments.

It’s not clear at all. Like I stated, you asked for something. I provided it, and you attempted to just belittle it.

Oh it troubles you that’s why you were so quick to bring up Bossy and Sakic, you were so quick to say it wasn’t a Gretzky/Lemieux tier post season. It’s going to be ok, just relax.

So now only 5(correction) people….out of the thousands upon thousands of players in the NHL….5 got to 100 assists. Sorry but that means something, and it’s a huge accomplishment. Not winning the Hart has nothing to do with it, but way to once again try to change up your own standards and argument.

2006 and 2007 weren’t “lower scoring era.” in fact the opposite you are clearly new to hockey…

As opposed to someone who tried to suggest that 2006-07 was a “lower scoring environment.” And then trying to use that era to suggest getting 100 assists is meaningless….sorry but you are alone on that one

 

[norrisnick]

Only Gretzky and Lemieux have a comparable or better resume through their first 9 years than McDavid.

People keep talking about winning. Crosby won one cup through his first 9 years and team achievements are heavily team based. He wasn’t even voted as the most important player to his team’s winning cup run that year. McDavid did something this year in the playoffs that only 2 other players have done, broke one of Gretzky’s records, and became the 2nd forward to win the Smythe on a losing team.

Furthermore to battle this winning nonsense, Crosby has 201 playoff points in 180 playoff games. Great numbers. McDavid has only 84 less points in 106 less games played. He’s going to make that gap up and he’s going to do so very quickly. He has a chance at chasing Gretzky’s playoff record.

Sid is great, but McDavid is going down as a top-5 player of all time when it’s all said and done.

Howe had 4 Art Ross wins (including 3x setting/tying the scoring record) and 2 Hart wins (some super goofy voting patterns back in the day). The Conn Smythe didn't exist in Howe's first 9 years, but he led the playoffs in scoring 3 times including setting the single season playoff scoring record.

Orr had 2 Art Ross wins, 3 Harts, and 8 Norris trophies and 2 Smythes in his first 9 seasons.

In Mario's first 9 season he had 3 Art Ross wins, 2 Harts, and 2 Smythes.

Gretzky is in another realm with his first 9, 7 Art Ross trophies, 8 Harts, 2 Smythes.

 

[norrisnick]

It’s not clear at all. Like I stated, you asked for something. I provided it, and you attempted to just belittle it.

Oh it troubles you that’s why you were so quick to bring up Bossy and Sakic, you were so quick to say it wasn’t a Gretzky/Lemieux tier post season. It’s going to be ok, just relax.

So now only 4 people….out of the thousands upon thousands of players in the NHL….4 got to 100 assists. Sorry but that means something, and it’s a huge accomplishment. Not winning the Hart has nothing to do with it, but way to once again try to change up your own standards and argument.

2006 and 2007 weren’t “lower scoring era.” in fact the opposite you are clearly new to hockey…

As opposed to someone who tried to suggest that 2006-07 was a “lower scoring environment.” And then trying to use that era to suggest getting 100 assists is meaningless….sorry but you are alone on that one

Just want to point out, that defensemen are players too. Orr did it as well.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Just want to point out, that defensemen are players too. Orr did it as well.

Thank you for the correction

 

[BraveCanadian]

So now only 4 people….

Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, Kucherov, McDavid

You forgot someone


Edit -Whoops someone beat me to it

 

[Video Nasty]

Did you know Ovechkin has more trophies than McDavid, and likely will have the goal record when its all over?

McDavid is one of the most decorated players of all-time through 9 seasons. He has 14 trophies.

Ovechkin had 11 (I’m assuming you’re counting the Calder here) and has added what will likely remain 7 over the past 10 seasons. 9 of his 18 trophies are the Rocket, which has the lowest value among the Hart, Art Ross, and Pearson/Lindsay group. You will of course reply with “nuh uh.”

Though Gretzky lacked the Rocket award to win, McDavid is likely to flirt with his record of 25 trophy wins by the time it is all over.

What an odd point to bring up when McDavid will likely clear Ovechkin’s total within the next two seasons.

 

[PainForShane]

Right….because those numbers don’t mean anything. I’m just spouting off random “raw totals” without any context. It must be so tough being that dense, my heart goes out to you.

I mean the defensive numbers don’t lie but sure, hang on to your player polls as the end all-be all.

You aren’t even a good troll, that’s the joke of your whole post history.

The first bolded sentence is obviously not what I said.

The second bolded sentence is what I said (which is surprising), it's pretty obvious to everyone you're just spouting off "raw totals" while actively choosing not to hear any context. Seems like you meant that 2nd sentence sarcastically, that sarcasm is obviously not justified given your prior posts in this thread.

And also, I'm not trolling nor have I been this entire conversation. I'd imagine that's pretty obvious to anyone even remotely following this conversation.