Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[pi314]

You know, like raw totals, instead of comparing accomplishments. Making it seem like McDavid's playoffs was the 3rd best player performance ever behind Gretzky and Lemieux because you want to harp on raw point totals.

It is up there. So is Sakic and Bossy's run. So is Malkin's. I don't put somebody in Gretzky/Lemieux territory just because they achieved something similar one time.

Well, it does. McDavid didn't accomplish a rare feat that is a coveted record or something. I hadn't even heard of the record before this year. Joe Thornton got 96 assists and won the Hart in 2006. That was a better playmaking season. It just didn't hit some unique raw total number. You want to bring up sexy sounding numbers like it puts him in Gretzky's tier. It doesn't.

It is when you use stats from a higher scoring era and compare it to a player stats from a low scoring era, without any context.

Unless it doesn't suit your argument, then you will be happy to bring up the higher scoring environment that Yzerman got his big seasons during.

I don't know what the 'excuse' is, but I just don't think McDavid is on Gretzky's level, nor will he likely ever get there. And no amount of bending stats to fit a narrative will make me buy into it, I need McDavid to be more dominant above his peers like the players you so desperately want to compare him to.

You seem more upset that McDavid hasn't done enough to really enter into that next tier conversation.

My favorite hockey player was me, and I couldn't even break my own heart. I don't have some weird attachment to one player over the other. I like every player we have discussed so far.

Scoring is up 15% league wide.

Without that, McDavid had the same 36 points Geno had in ‘09.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Scoring is up 15% league wid

Without that, McDavid had the same 36 points Geno had in ‘09.

08/09 - 2.91 goals average per team per game
23/24. - 3.11 goals average per team per game

That’s 6.9% not 15%, off by double.

NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest NHL League Averages including shots, saves, goal averages and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

08/09 - 2.91 goals average per team pergame
23/24. - 3.11 goals average per team per game

That’s 6.9% not 15%, off by double.

NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest NHL League Averages including shots, saves, goal averages and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

He is a little off, but your calculation isn't perfect either. Here is a good article that goes into it a bit when McDavid was making his run last playoffs Draisaitl, McDavid, Hyman, Bouchard & the NHL’s Greatest Playoff Scoring Runs

Basically Malkin's 09 adjusts to 40 points, with nearly double the goals that McDavid put up.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Following up from the same article I posted, here are some good info charts they posted. All stats are through 2023 as they were watching the Oilers run play out.

 

[Golden_Jet]

He is a little off, but your calculation isn't perfect either.

My calculation is perfect for the post I replied to, I was correcting that scoring is up 15%, when it was less than half of that.
I wasn’t referring to any players, just the calculation.
I don’t care about the other fluff in OP, that compares apples to bananas.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I don't think Crosby would condone the hiring of human excrement like Connor does.

I guess that puts Sid "a tier above" as a person.

Uh huh.

And how many times did Crosby's team sign Matt Cooke - even going so far as to let him wear the "A" at times?

 

[Double Dion]

This sentence is all sorts of hyperbolic drivel.

Four players at some point being the definitive best player in the league, does not mean they are equal. Comparable, I guess. But it still fairly clearly goes Gretzky, Howe, Orr, Lemieux. The smallest gap is between Howe and Orr. The biggest gap between Gretzky and Howe.


McDavid is closer in all around play than Crosby is offensively.

No he isn't. Crosby at his peak was always a top 2 offensive player and a top 5 defensive player. A beast along the wall. A dominant player in every regard. McDavid is the best offensive player in the game. He's decent in board battles but has been awful defensively before this season and was still below average this season. It's really not close.

 

[norrisnick]

No he isn't. Crosby at his peak was always a top 2 offensive player and a top 5 defensive player. A beast along the wall. A dominant player in every regard. McDavid is the best offensive player in the game. He's decent in board battles but has been awful defensively before this season and was still below average this season. It's really not close.

I might give Crosby top half defensively, but top 5 is deranged.

 

[blundluntman]

No he isn't. Crosby at his peak was always a top 2 offensive player and a top 5 defensive player. A beast along the wall. A dominant player in every regard. McDavid is the best offensive player in the game. He's decent in board battles but has been awful defensively before this season and was still below average this season. It's really not close.

When was this? What season?

 

[pi314]

I might give Crosby top half defensively, but top 5 is deranged.

And the actual professionals who play against him think your opinion is total nonsense.

Crosby of Penguins voted most complete player in NHLPA poll for 5th consecutive season | NHL.com

 

[Ogelthorpe]

I mean, being born in Nova Scotia instead of Vermont certainly helped him. In all likelihood had he been American the only international championship he would've won is the 2004 WJC.

If Crosby is on team USA in 2010, USA wins the Gold, without question.

 

[Golden_Jet]

No he isn't. Crosby at his peak was always a top 2 offensive player and a top 5 defensive player. A beast along the wall. A dominant player in every regard. McDavid is the best offensive player in the game. He's decent in board battles but has been awful defensively before this season and was still below average this season. It's really not close.

The highest Crosby has finished is 4th in Selke voting. I wouldn’t say he is/was top 5 in the league,

 

[Ogelthorpe]

He's from Canada.

His NHL team drafted Evgeny Malkin, the 3rd best player of the generation, whom he's never had much NHL team success without.

It's not some wild set of coincidences.

McDavid has Draisatl and a host of other top 5 draft picks…… let’s not pretend he’s in Arizona Doug everything himself.

 

[Double Dion]

The highest Crosby has finished is 4th in Selke voting. I wouldn’t say he is/was top 5 in the league,

He absolutely should have been. Selke voting is ridiculous. Backlund was a much better defensive player than Lindholm and finished outside the top 5. Lindholm finished 2nd. This was in 21-22.

 

[Ogelthorpe]

Right, and as soon as they added some depth they immediately came within a sphincter-tightening crease scramble of winning the Cup. That’s how this works, it’s not the NBA. Mario Lemieux’s early career is informative on the topic.



Well yeah, he was on a star-studded Penguins team and otherwise plays for Team Canada. At what level did he not play on a powerhouse team?

This year’s Edmonton team was every bit as good as the 91’ Pens……However, the Pens got it done, Edmonton did not. At some point whiny excuses have to be looked at as just that. At some point, you got to get the job done.

 

[Midnight Judges]

McDavid has Draisatl and a host of other top 5 draft picks…… let’s not pretend he’s in Arizona Doug everything himself.

The Penguins have a very good winning record during the hundreds of games that Crosby has missed. They generally go from .620 to .720 in extended periods without Crosby.

It has generally been a far better team around Crosby.

 

[nowhereman]

I might give Crosby top half defensively, but top 5 is deranged.

Both statements are extreme. Actually, "top half" is more deranged.

 

[MuckOG]

Close, but I think Crosby is still slightly ahead of McDavid as an all-around player.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby's defensive statistics over the course of his career are nowhere near top half of the NHL. He isn't asked to do those things (65%+ career offensive zone starts and 24 seconds PK per game - 12 seconds in the playoffs, but actually those are both misleading as Crosby hops over the boards at the end of every PK after the puck is cleared), nor should he be.

 

[Coffey]

Crosby being a defensive dynamo is the biggest propaganda piece thrown around in the last 15 years since the USSR started producing Pravda.

 

[DitchMarner]

For the people arguing about defense - is your opinion primarily subjective (based on observations and analysis) or based on reputation and Selke voting or based on advanced stats?

Personally, I'd like to see some statistical data that supports some of the claims being made.

 

[norrisnick]

And the actual professionals who play against him think your opinion is total nonsense.

Crosby of Penguins voted most complete player in NHLPA poll for 5th consecutive season | NHL.com

I'm going to go out on a limb and state that no one believes Crosby's peak was the last 5 seasons.

Both statements are extreme. Actually, "top half" is more deranged.

Top half is above average. Some might say that's generous.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

For the people arguing about defense - is your opinion primarily subjective (based on observations and analysis) or based on reputation and Selke voting or based on advanced stats?

Personally, I'd like to see some statistical data that supports some of the claims being made.

I did a deep dive into this 2-3 years ago. I'll have to look for the links tonight.

The reason why both "sides" are confident they're correct is because it comes down to how the question is defined.

If we're talking about defensive play, in isolation, then Crosby is nothing special. I think he's roughly average. Maybe a bit better.

If we're talking about two-way play (ie looking at the overall impact of both his offense and defense), then he's one of the most impactful players of all-time.

To illustrate the point - the first category is looking strictly at defensive play. That involves taking the toughest defensive matchups, playing on the penalty kill, and ultimately minimizing the number of goals allowed when that player is on the ice. These players generally don't score much, but that's not their role. Think about Bob Gainey and Guy Carbonneau.

The second category looks at all-around play. Most of the players who look good in this category (Bobby Orr, Gordie Howe, Ray Bourque, Bryan Trottier, Bobby Clarke, Chris Pronger, Peter Forsberg etc) are good-to-great offensively, and good-to-great defensively. But sometimes a player can look really good even if they're not at all focused on defense in the conventional sense (Gretzky, Jagr, etc).

Ultimately, what's relevant is how much a player helps his team outscore the opposition. I don't really care he brings elite offense and poor defense, or it he's above average in both categories. Crosby has never been elite defensively (aside from a few small cherry-picked stretches), but he doesn't need to be. He's a historically great offensive talent, and roughly average defensively. That results in him being one of the greatest even-strength performers in NHL history, and he's vastly improved his team's goal differential when he's been on the ice. (So has McDavid, for the record).

 

[pi314]

Gotta love the random HF trolls who know better than NHL players about good defense.

Never change. Never ever change.

Sidney Crosby Voted 'Most Complete Player' in NHLPA Player Poll | Pittsburgh Penguins.

"Crosby was named “the most complete player” on 38.37% of ballots. Of the 589 players who voted on this question, 226 chose the Pittsburgh captain."

Pretty sure, being the "most complete player" includes defense.

But what would NHL players know when we can listen to random commenters who cheer for a rival team?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Like I said above (and is obvious to even the most casual lurker), 'clutch' and 'meaningful games' are two concepts that you don't seem to understand despite pretending to try (or actually trying, who knows) for multiple pages.

I think everyone understands that the total number of points someone scored in a series have no relation to how important those points were to the outcome of the series. Except for you.

I've never seen anyone laugh at others so much due to their own inability / unwillingness to understand basic things. Legendary thread indeed.

Crosby wasn’t clutch in that series, and he didn’t do anything in the “meaningful” games though….so your whole argument makes zero sense…

You know, like raw totals, instead of comparing accomplishments. Making it seem like McDavid's playoffs was the 3rd best player performance ever behind Gretzky and Lemieux because you want to harp on raw point totals.

It is up there. So is Sakic and Bossy's run. So is Malkin's. I don't put somebody in Gretzky/Lemieux territory just because they achieved something similar one time.

Well, it does. McDavid didn't accomplish a rare feat that is a coveted record or something. I hadn't even heard of the record before this year. Joe Thornton got 96 assists and won the Hart in 2006. That was a better playmaking season. It just didn't hit some unique raw total number. You want to bring up sexy sounding numbers like it puts him in Gretzky's tier. It doesn't.

It is when you use stats from a higher scoring era and compare it to a player stats from a low scoring era, without any context.

Unless it doesn't suit your argument, then you will be happy to bring up the higher scoring environment that Yzerman got his big seasons during.

I don't know what the 'excuse' is, but I just don't think McDavid is on Gretzky's level, nor will he likely ever get there. And no amount of bending stats to fit a narrative will make me buy into it, I need McDavid to be more dominant above his peers like the players you so desperately want to compare him to.

You seem more upset that McDavid hasn't done enough to really enter into that next tier conversation.

My favorite hockey player was me, and I couldn't even break my own heart. I don't have some weird attachment to one player over the other. I like every player we have discussed so far.

Earlier you said trophy counting isn’t the way to go. You asked what “accomplishments” McDavid has done where only 2-3 other players have done the same or more, I provided a list. You then complain about raw numbers and form a strawman out of nowhere…So by accomplishments, do you mean trophies? Or…

Beating Gretzkys assist record in the playoffs isn’t a “raw total”, it’s an accomplishment.

Ok….good for you. It still stands, 42 points is the most a player has gotten not named Gretzky or Lemieux. Sorry if this troubles you.

Again, he’s the 3rd player in HISTORY to do it….you talk like everyone is getting 100 assist.
I don’t see how Thornton had the better play making season. Seems like you are just looking for any way to discredit McDavid.

What? His stats aren’t inflated due to a “higher scoring era.” And 100 assist didn’t “inflate” his totals.

Go ahead and ask more people if Yzerman is better, I’ll wait.

Once again, you asked….i provided, now if what I provided doesn’t sit well with you and your argument, then that’s your problem.

Gotta love the random HF trolls who know better than NHL players about good defense.

Never change. Never ever change.

Sidney Crosby Voted 'Most Complete Player' in NHLPA Player Poll | Pittsburgh Penguins.

"Crosby was named “the most complete player” on 38.37% of ballots. Of the 589 players who voted on this question, 226 chose the Pittsburgh captain."

Pretty sure, being the "most complete player" includes defense.

But what would NHL players know when we can listen to random commenters who cheer for a rival team?

Is that what his defensive numbers and metrics were weak this year?

Tell me, what was McDavid voted on during those polls, I’ll wait.