Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[MacMacandBarbie]

I mean, the Sedins and Benn were giving him troubles...

I mean, the Sedins gave everyone trouble when they broke out. 2015 isn't really Crosby's prime anymore, and if he was fully healthy, he would have beat Benn. Its not like he didn't lead the league in PPG.

Besides, nobody argued Crosby was in the Gretzky/Orr/Howe/Mario tier. Its McDavid superfans that think having a better trophy cabinet than Crosby is the basis for being on that tier, rather than having to be as good as the people in that tier.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

“I can hold your hand through the conversation.” You can barely sustain your own side of things and once again, he did it twice, not just once. You can call it whatever you want. It was a season where he dominated his peers.

Well he did it once over a full season. Again, it was lockout shortened in 2021. Not only lockout shortened, but covid caused him to form an entire different division of teams that he would play exclusively against. We have never seen a season like that in the history of our league. Oh and Kucherov didn't play. You want to twist that into a Gretzky level accomplishment be my guest.

Or you can just own up to the fact that your attempt to belittle his 2022 season was full of nonsense. You are the one who dug yourself deeper with your constant moving the goal posts and look for reasons to devalue it, only to be wrong every time.

Well if you think that was a Gretzky level dominant season, and you want to say I am wrong, then we can at least finally come to a conclusion. You never saw Gretzky/Mario play. Thats okay, you can still look up their stats if you have time.

So we are now on the same page that the Art Ross is a major award, correct? It’s “context” that you decided to mention in attempt to make it look less impressive because you realize calling the Art Ross a non major award was more than silly.

I don't think we are on the same page. Because despite me having said the Art Ross is a major award many times, and that he won by single digits, you want to drive this point home as if it is going to prop up your argument that 2022 is somehow a dominant season by McDavid where he looked like the second coming of Gretzky. Well, it does nothing for you. Please get as pedantic as you can about the meaning of words and technicalities, but don't expect me to respond to attempts to derail the conversation. 2022 doesn't impress me enough to put him on Gretzky's level, and I don't think you will have much support outside of the McDavid superfans on here.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

You said a dominant 41 games. No, it was a dominant 25 games. The end.

Since January 1, 2018, a stretch in which he has played 477 games while missing only 19, McDavid has scored at a higher clip than Crosby did for those 99 games. McDavid is the living embodiment of all your what if fantasies and you can’t even enjoy it. Why you’re so mesmerized by Crosby is beyond me.

The level of reach here is absolutely insane. McDavid is the healthy version of what Crosby was, and when I see him perform at the level of 2023 consistently, then I might change my tune. Cause I saw Mario/Gretzky dominate their competition, year in and year out. Every time they laced them up for most of the season, they dominated on a level their peers couldn't touch. Not just once.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Well he did it once over a full season. Again, it was lockout shortened in 2021. Not only lockout shortened, but covid caused him to form an entire different division of teams that he would play exclusively against. We have never seen a season like that in the history of our league. Oh and Kucherov didn't play. You want to twist that into a Gretzky level accomplishment be my guest.

Well if you think that was a Gretzky level dominant season, and you want to say I am wrong, then we can at least finally come to a conclusion. You never saw Gretzky/Mario play. Thats okay, you can still look up their stats if you have time.

I don't think we are on the same page. Because despite me having said the Art Ross is a major award many times, and that he won by single digits, you want to drive this point home as if it is going to prop up your argument that 2022 is somehow a dominant season by McDavid where he looked like the second coming of Gretzky. Well, it does nothing for you. Please get as pedantic as you can about the meaning of words and technicalities, but don't expect me to respond to attempts to derail the conversation. 2022 doesn't impress me enough to put him on Gretzky's level, and I don't think you will have much support outside of the McDavid superfans on here.

I don’t understand why you keep implying that I’ve said he’s a “Gretzky tier.” It’s strange…

who cares if Kucherov didn’t play. Again, is that supposed to be another reason why it wasn’t “dominant?”

No you didn’t, you said it was a “default” award. I said it was a major award, you said “ummm actually..”

I never said it was the second coming of Gretzky. I haven’t mentioned the name or word “Gretzky” in any of my posts. Are you just going to try to blatantly make crap up and try to pass it off as ME saying it? Or are you going to actually stick with what is and isn’t said…

For example, you said “McDavid wasn’t voted on for any major awards,” and “he didn’t win any major awards.” Both are actual statements you made. I didn’t create them out of thin air.

 

[Video Nasty]

This is such a dumb way to look at it. If that’s the case you shouldn’t hold McDavid’s 20-21 as a Lemieux-like since he had 69 points through the first 42 games then 36 points in the final 14 games.

No matter how hard you guys try, playing the complete schedule matters.

The level of reach here is absolutely insane. McDavid is the healthy version of what Crosby was, and when I see him perform at the level of 2023 consistently, then I might change my tune. Cause I saw Mario/Gretzky dominate their competition, year in and year out. Every time they laced them up for most of the season, they dominated on a level their peers couldn't touch. Not just once.

There you go again, trying to make up for Crosby’s deficiencies by dragging Gretzky and Lemieux into it. I’m sorry Crosby didn’t sniff anything resembling their level, not even once.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I don’t understand why you keep implying that I’ve said he’s a “Gretzky tier.” It’s strange…

It is odd. Its almost like its the entire basis of this thread.

who cares if Kucherov didn’t play. Again, is that supposed to be another reason why it wasn’t “dominant?”

No you didn’t, you said it was a “default” award. I said it was a major award, you said “ummm actually..”

It is a default award. You don't vote on the Art Ross. This is such a weird thing to harp on when it has nothing to do with any argument, and being right doesn't support or serve as a critique to anybody's point. Is this what you do when you lose an argument? Just start attacking the other person for being human?

I never said it was the second coming of Gretzky. I haven’t mentioned the name or word “Gretzky” in any of my posts. Are you just going to try to blatantly make crap up and try to pass it off as ME saying it? Or are you going to actually stick with what is and isn’t said…

You don't have to. By responding in the thread, you are having a conversation under a certain premise. You made your stance pretty clear many posts ago that you think McDavid is a tier above Crosby.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

No matter how hard you guys try, playing the complete schedule matters.

Yeah, it does. Nobody really denied that.

There you go again, trying to make up for Crosby’s deficiencies by dragging Gretzky and Lemieux into it. I’m sorry Crosby didn’t sniff anything resembling their level, not even once.

Here I go again, just tying the conversation back to the thread's premise and staying on track with the conversation. I am okay with Crosby being compared to his contemporaries.

 

[GreatGonzo]

It is odd. Its almost like its the entire basis of this thread.

It is a default award. You don't vote on the Art Ross. This is such a weird thing to harp on when it has nothing to do with any argument, and being right doesn't support or serve as a critique to anybody's point. Is this what you do when you lose an argument? Just start attacking the other person for being human?

You don't have to. By responding in the thread, you are having a conversation under a certain premise. You made your stance pretty clear many posts ago that you think McDavid is a tier above Crosby.

And yet I haven’t argued anything about Gretzky or Lemieux.. makes me wonder…

It’s a major award. Something you disagreed with first, and then changed your stance on it after calling it a “default award.” You THEN went on to say that he wasn’t voted on for any major awards. The Hart and Lindsay, do they get voted on? Did he get votes?…you then changed it to, well, he didn’t WIN any of the awards that are voted on… No it was to simply show you how terrible your argument was honestly.

So you just assumed what I’m thinking, try to put words in my mouth, make up things and claim I stated them….all because you just decided that I proclaimed what I didn’t…

Wow

Yeah, it does. Nobody really denied that.

Here I go again, just tying the conversation back to the thread's premise and staying on track with the conversation. I am okay with Crosby being compared to his contemporaries.

Where in this thread is the premise Gretzky and Lemieux? The whole thread is about whether or not McDavid is a different tier above Crosby…

You keep bringing up Gretzky and Lemieux and then say, “it’s the premise.”

Do you even know what that means?

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I see a lot of posters are still questioning Crosby’s ability to maintain his pace from half to half of seasons going into 2011. That notion has clearly been debunked in post #1096.

As for the claim pointing out that “Unlike Crosby, McDavid has shown us he could maintain those crazy paces all season before age 23 (2021 season)”; it has also been proven wrong in post #1172 and post #1222.

At this point, posters using these arguments against Crosby are either trolls or posters who deliberately ignore facts that are given to them, which makes their argumentation totally subjective and therefore, weak.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

And yet I haven’t argued anything about Gretzky or Lemieux.. makes me wonder…

Makes you wonder where you are? You are in a thread about comparing tiers of players. Some of the things you are responding to are implied.

It’s a major award. Something you disagreed with first, and then changed your stance on it after calling it a “default award.” No it was to simply show you how terrible your argument was honestly.

Oh yikes, we are getting quite pedantic now. I can't pretend to care about whether you call the Art Ross a major award, a default given scoring award, the scoring leader award, or make up a completely new way to reference the award. It just has no bearing on the conversation, other then making you feel like you were right about something.

So you just assumed what I’m thinking, try to put words in my mouth, make up things and claim I stated them….all because you just decided that I proclaimed what I didn’t…

Wow

I sort of thought you knew what thread you were in, and that you remembered agreeing McDavid was in an entire tier above Crosby, and that you remembered responding to posters that compared McDavid to Gretzky/Howe/Orr/Mario.

You are the kind of guy who opens a cookie jar and starts fishing around for a cookie, and then when caught, go on a tangent about how you never said you wanted to eat a cookie, or that you were going to grab a cookie, and then try to convince the person that caught you that you were just organizing the cookies.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Where in this thread is the premise Gretzky and Lemieux? The whole thread is about whether or not McDavid is a different tier above Crosby…

You keep bringing up Gretzky and Lemieux and then say, “it’s the premise.”

Do you even know what that means?

Alright GreatGonzo, I will humor you. If you think McDavid is a whole tier above Crosby, but you don't think he is in Gretzky/Mario/Orr/Lemiuex tier, please enlighten us on what tier you think he is on? His own? By himself with a random 'hot take' type of player? Curious if you can manage to respond with a coherent answer to the question I just asked, instead of trying to tear apart this question and avoid it like a politician.

 

[PainForShane]

And yet I haven’t argued anything about Gretzky or Lemieux.. makes me wonder…

And yet... that's what MacMac was arguing against. The entire time you've been talking to him, however many posts over however many pages. Meanwhile you're like, "McDavid was an awards finalist in 2022 why are you distracting me with your actual argument" lmao.

Apparently you do NOT know where you are. This is too good

 

[GreatGonzo]

Makes you wonder where you are? You are in a thread about comparing tiers of players. Some of the things you are responding to are implied.

Oh yikes, we are getting quite pedantic now. I can't pretend to care about whether you call the Art Ross a major award, a default given scoring award, the scoring leader award, or make up a completely new way to reference the award. It just has no bearing on the conversation, other then making you feel like you were right about something.

I sort of thought you knew what thread you were in, and that you remembered agreeing McDavid was in an entire tier above Crosby, and that you remembered responding to posters that compared McDavid to Gretzky/Howe/Orr/Mario.

You are the kind of guy who opens a cookie jar and starts fishing around for a cookie, and then when caught, go on a tangent about how you never said you wanted to eat a cookie, or that you were going to grab a cookie, and then try to convince the person that caught you that you were just organizing the cookies.

And yet Gretzky and Lemieux have nothing to do with it I feel like maybe you are the one in the wrong thread, especially considering you keep
Saying that I’ve stated all these things that I clearly never said, all while continuously brining up those two…


Hey I’m just quoting your nonsense, you are the one who can’t handle being confronted with the ridiculousness of what you say.

Show me where I said that, ill wait….

As opposed to the kind of guy who has to lie and make up things? As opposed to the guy who can’t debate or keep up with his own side of the conversation? I’ll be the cookie guy…

Alright GreatGonzo, I will humor you. If you think McDavid is a whole tier above Crosby, but you don't think he is in Gretzky/Mario/Orr/Lemiuex tier, please enlighten us on what tier you think he is on? His own? By himself with a random 'hot take' type of player? Curious if you can manage to respond with a coherent answer to the question I just asked, instead of trying to tear apart this question and avoid it like a politician.

I think that’s very hard to say at this point. Crosbys career is nearly over while McDavid is still writing his. I don’t put Crosby or McDavid In the category of Orr, Lemieux, or Gretzky. But Howe has always been an enjoyable debate between the two of them.

I think McDavid has done things so far that he has an argument for being above Crosby. In a different tier? Maybe not yet…but if both are in the same tier, I’d argue McDavid has a case for being over Crosby at this point.

He already has a trophy case that literally rivals the big 4. His talent and skills are obvious, he’s going on to be arguably one, if not the most “skilled” player to ever play.

McDavids 2024 year very much has
“Gretzky/Lemieux-esc” accompaniments: 42 point playoff, 3rd player to reach 100 assists, broke Gretzkys playoff assist record, all while setting some records. Don’t forget his near unanimous 2023 season. Does this make him ON Gretzky and Lemieuxs level? No, is he knocking at their door? Imo yes.

And yet... that's what MacMac was arguing against. The entire time you've been talking to him, however many posts over however many pages. Meanwhile you're like, "McDavid was an awards finalist in 2022 why are you distracting me with your actual argument" lmao.

Apparently you do NOT know where you are. This is too good

Dude go outside for a change, get some fresh air. You have no argument here. He don’t need to speak for him, he can barely speak for himself.

 

[PainForShane]

Dude go outside for a change, get some fresh air. You have no argument here. He don’t need to speak for him, he can barely speak for himself.

Nah man. You are the one with no argument here. Seems like you're finally starting to understand that but from what I've seen from your posts I'm not entirely sure you'll get there.

Either way this is definitely amusing to watch

 

[GreatGonzo]

Nah man. You are the one with no argument here. Seems like you're finally starting to understand that but from what I've seen from your posts I'm not entirely sure you'll get there.

Either way this is definitely amusing to watch

The irony…

 

[PainForShane]

The irony…

Nah man.

The irony is that when you say,

I think McDavid has done things so far that he has an argument for being above Crosby. In a different tier? Maybe not yet…but if both are in the same tier, I’d argue McDavid has a case for being over Crosby at this point.

The bolded above is THE EXACT POINT OF VIEW that all of team Crosby has been arguing for. This entire time.

Lmao

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

And yet Gretzky and Lemieux have nothing to do with it I feel like maybe you are the one in the wrong thread, especially considering you keep
Saying that I’ve stated all these things that I clearly never said, all while continuously brining up those two…

Okay...Gretzky and Lemieux have nothing to do with a tier that is above Crosby. I'm following.

Hey I’m just quoting your nonsense, you are the one who can’t handle being confronted with the ridiculousness of what you say.

Show me where I said that, ill wait….

As opposed to the kind of guy who has to lie and make up things? As opposed to the guy who can’t debate or keep up with his own side of the conversation? I’ll be the cookie guy…

I want to quote the guy who quoted 'A few good men' but I can't find it. 'You can't handle the truth' is how you sound.

I think that’s very hard to say at this point. Crosbys career is nearly over while McDavid is still writing his. I don’t put Crosby or McDavid In the category of Orr, Lemieux, or Gretzky. But Howe has always been an enjoyable debate between the two of them.

Odd, it almost sounds like you are comparing McDavid to the Howe tier. I don't see what is so interesting. Howe has double the Hart trophies. 6 to 3. Howe led the league in goals, points, and assists 3 times. McDavid has done it once. Howe led the league in goal scoring 5 times. McDavid has done it once.

It sounds a lot like Howe is in a different tier than McDavid to me. Almost like a Gretzky tier. But nobody said anything about Gretzky! I know, I know.

I think McDavid has done things so far that he has an argument for being above Crosby. In a different tier? Maybe not yet…but if both are in the same tier, I’d argue McDavid has a case for being over Crosby at this point.

Now I am actually lost. You say McDavid is a tier above Crosby. But not yet. But if he isn't, he is better than Crosby. I am not fully sure what you are saying.

If you are saying that McDavid isn't a tier above Crosby, but he is better than Crosby. Sure, I think a lot of people can get behind that. I think you will even find some Ovechkin fans salivating at the topic of conversation. But even those people are level headed enough to admit they are comparable players.

He already has a trophy case that literally rivals the big 4. His talent and skills are obvious, he’s going on to be arguably one, if not the most “skilled” player to ever play.

McDavids 2024 year very much has
“Gretzky/Lemieux-esc” accompaniments: 42 point playoff, 3rd player to reach 100 assists, broke Gretzkys playoff assist record, all while setting some records. Don’t forget his near unanimous 2023 season. Does this make him ON Gretzky and Lemieuxs level? No, is he knocking at their door? Imo yes.

He really doesn't. Howe has 6 Hart trophies. 5 times leading the league in goals. 3 times winning every scoring category. It dwarfs McDavid's accomplishments. He isn't 'knocking on the door' when he is that far behind for me, just because his cabinet stacks up against an injury riddled player. Ovechkin's trophy cabinet is larger than McDavid's and he is going for one of the most prestigious records in the sport. Trophies aren't the only measurement.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Nah man.

The irony is that when you say,


That is THE EXACT POINT OF VIEW that multiple posters (ie team Crosby in this thread) have been arguing for. This entire time. Myself and MacMac included.

Lmao

First of all, take a breathe what’s wrong with that point of view?

Secondly, that wasn’t what me and him were arguing….at all. That’s the first time I stated anything regarding the tier of player.

You once again played yourself.

Okay...Gretzky and Lemieux have nothing to do with a tier that is above Crosby. I'm following.

I want to quote the guy who quoted 'A few good men' but I can't find it. 'You can't handle the truth' is how you sound.

Odd, it almost sounds like you are comparing McDavid to the Howe tier. I don't see what is so interesting. Howe has double the Hart trophies. 6 to 3. Howe led the league in goals, points, and assists 3 times. McDavid has done it once. Howe led the league in goal scoring 5 times. McDavid has done it once.

It sounds a lot like Howe is in a different tier than McDavid to me. Almost like a Gretzky tier. But nobody said anything about Gretzky! I know, I know.

Now I am actually lost. You say McDavid is a tier above Crosby. But not yet. But if he isn't, he is better than Crosby. I am not fully sure what you are saying.

If you are saying that McDavid isn't a tier above Crosby, but he is better than Crosby. Sure, I think a lot of people can get behind that. I think you will even find some Ovechkin fans salivating at the topic of conversation. But even those people are level headed enough to admit they are comparable players.

He really doesn't. Howe has 6 Hart trophies. 5 times leading the league in goals. 3 times winning every scoring category. It dwarfs McDavid's accomplishments. He isn't 'knocking on the door' when he is that far behind for me, just because his cabinet stacks up against an injury riddled player. Ovechkin's trophy cabinet is larger than McDavid's and he is going for one of the most prestigious records in the sport. Trophies aren't the only measurement.

Ok?

So original…repeat what the other guy said back at them…hoping it just sounds different

More of that “assuming” I’m guessing? I didn’t say that at all. I said I’ve seen some good debates regarding Crosby and McDavid possibly being higher than Howe. The history section has some great topics on it, you should check it out.

Since reading isn’t your strong suit, I’ll just say it again. I said if they BOTH were in the same tier, I’d argue McDavid above Crosby, is he in a whole other tier? I wouldn’t say yet. Possibly by the end of his career. Is that really that hard to understand? Did you get all that?

Well then agree to disagree? Again, what McDavid has accomplished in this era is pretty special and the fact that only 2-3 players(or none) have done it….it makes it very elite. That’s not to say Howe is for sure outside the big 4, his resume speaks for itself. Again though, I’d say between Crosby and McDavid, Howe is the one one of them could most likely pass up when all said is done.

 

[PainForShane]

Since reading isn’t your strong suit, I’ll just say it again. I said if they BOTH were in the same tier, I’d argue McDavid above Crosby, is he in a whole other tier? I wouldn’t say yet. Possibly by the end of his career. Is that really that hard to understand? Did you get all that?

This guy is actually serious right now. Lmfao

 

[GreatGonzo]

This guy is actually serious right now. Lmfao

If that doesn’t make sense to you, boy your going to have a rough time in life.

So you think no matter what McDavid does from this point forward, in no way will he ever be a tier above Crosby?

By the way, this isn’t a trick question. Make sure to sound out for words carefully and get back to me when it makes sense. No rush buddy.

 

[PainForShane]

If that doesn’t make sense to you, boy your going to have a rough time in life.

So you think no matter what McDavid does from this point forward, in no way will he ever be a tiger above Crosby?

By the way, this isn’t a trick question. Make sure to sound out for words carefully and get back to me when it makes sense. No rush buddy.

Bro.

When you say "McDavid is not yet a tier above Crosby" I 100% agree with that point of view, in fact that is the point of view that I (and the rest of team Crosby) have been arguing for this entire time. Meaning that's also the point of view you've been arguing against this entire time.

That's why I'm laughing my ass off right now. You cannot make this stuff up

 

[GreatGonzo]

Bro.

When you say "McDavid is not yet a tier above Crosby" I 100% agree with that point of view, in fact that is the point of view that I (and the rest of team Crosby) have been arguing for this entire time. Meaning that's also the point of view you've been arguing against this entire time.

That's why I'm laughing my ass off right now. You cannot make this stuff up

Again, that wasn’t the argument. Hasn’t been the argument between @MacMacandBarbie and I. I encourage you go back and look at the posts.

 

[PainForShane]

Again, that wasn’t the argument. Hasn’t been the argument between @MacMacandBarbie and I. I encourage you go back and look at the posts.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Your a real “special” fella, Aren’t you..

 

[PainForShane]

Your a real “special” fella, Aren’t you..

Not nearly as special as you. Seriously. I've never seen anything like this before