Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[MacMacandBarbie]

I'm not sure how many more ways there are to say, "learn how to read," "try to keep up" etc. He still won't do it. "So basically..." followed by nonsense that has nothing to do with the actual points being discussed -- what do you even say to that. What can you say?

I might have to break out a thesaurus at some point. I'll let you (and everyone else) know if I find a good one.

In the meantime, he still didn't understand your point about the shortened season even though you repeated it twice (one more than I would've done, not that it's necessarily the wrong decision). And whether or not you agree with your point, the argument is valid and not at all difficult to understand

Yeah the flip flopping by that poster has been odd. He wanted to discredit Crosby's 2014 season as being 'dominant' because key players like Malkin were hurt that year, but then didn't want to apply the same reasoning to 2021 for McDavid with Kucherov. He wanted to have his 'pace' argument that Crosby's dominant 41 game run in 2011 can't be extrapolated over 82 games, but for some reason McDavid's 2021 pace over 56 games should be taken at face value.

He just doesn't argue in good faith, and that is okay, because I am ignoring his strawman arguments and attempts to move goal posts, and just correcting him on his misinformation at this point. That is all you can really do I suppose.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yeah the flip flopping by that poster has been odd. He wanted to discredit Crosby's 2014 season as being 'dominant' because key players like Malkin were hurt that year, but then didn't want to apply the same reasoning to 2021 for McDavid with Kucherov. He wanted to have his 'pace' argument that Crosby's dominant 41 game run in 2011 can't be extrapolated over 82 games, but for some reason McDavid's 2021 pace over 56 games should be taken at face value.

He just doesn't argue in good faith, and that is okay, because I am ignoring his strawman arguments and attempts to move goal posts, and just correcting him on his misinformation at this point. That is all you can really do I suppose.

Quite literally have never stated that. Please feel free and find where I said such a thing and I’ll eat my own words. Until then, don’t create strawmen just to be able to have an argument.

Never said that. You are really on a roll here, aren’t you.

“He doesn’t argue in good faith.” All while you intentionally make up things that you claim I Stated when I never did. The hypocrisy is wild here…

Also, I’d recommend looking up what a “strawman” is. You might surprise yourself.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

How am I flip flopping? Crosby didn’t put up 100+ points in a shortened season, winning the Ross, Pearson, and Hart. There’s no need to use “pace.”

Because you wanted to poke holes in the argument that Crosby couldn't sustain his pace from 2011-2013 over normal seasons. You made a fair argument. Been then when I point out that outside of 2023 McDavid has shown struggles maintaining a dominant pace over his peers over the course of a full season, you want to get all technical about his Covid shortened season. It is weird.

He achieved what he achieved. He THEN followed it up with his 2023 season. Crosby didn’t follow it up with a more dominant season.

Not sure if you know this, but 2022 is what follows 2021.

No major awards in 2022? The Art Ross isn’t a major award, interesting…he also lead the playoffs in scoring that year as well with 33 points in 16 games. There’s no award for that but it’s worth noting.

He did show he could sustain it….what is so hard about understanding that?…

Well no Hart, Pearson. He won the Art Ross, but by single digit points. Is this the season you want to use to prove McDavid is in the Gretzky/Howe/Orr/Mario tier?

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Quite literally have never stated that. Please feel free and find where I said such a thing and I’ll eat my own words. Until then, don’t create strawmen just to be able to have an argument.

Never said that. You are really on a roll here, aren’t you.

“He doesn’t argue in good faith.” All while you intentionally make up things that you claim I Stated when I never did. The hypocrisy is wild here…

Also, I’d recommend looking up what a “strawman” is. You might surprise yourself.

You know, a strawman. Like when we are arguing about whether Crosby can maintain his 41 game pace in 2011 over 82 games, and then when I bring up McDavid's 56 games in 2021 now we are suddenly talking about trophies. I know 2021 McDavid took home the trophies. I just didn't see him sustain that dominant pace over 82 games in a full season over his peers. And he didn't, as evidenced by the pack catching back up the very next season and Matthews outplaying him.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Because you wanted to poke holes in the argument that Crosby couldn't sustain his pace from 2011-2013 over normal seasons. You made a fair argument. Been then when I point out that outside of 2023 McDavid has shown struggles maintaining a dominant pace over his peers over the course of a full season, you want to get all technical about his Covid shortened season. It is weird.

Not sure if you know this, but 2022 is what follows 2021.

Well no Hart, Pearson. He won the Art Ross, but by single digit points. Is this the season you want to use to prove McDavid is in the Gretzky/Howe/Orr/Mario tier?

You are changing the argument now. You first argued that McDavids 2021 season wasn’t sustainable, even though he showed it was during his 2023 season. Now it’s he hasn’t dominated “enough.” Well, what’s enough for you?…

And in 2022 he won the Art Ross and was a Hart finalists. Pretty sure that’s a major award with some major recognition. Again, he also lead the playoffs in scoring that year. You said he won “no major awards.”

So we are going from, “he won no major awards.” To, “oh….well he won it by single digits.”

And I’m flip flopping?

 

[PainForShane]

Yeah the flip flopping by that poster has been odd. He wanted to discredit Crosby's 2014 season as being 'dominant' because key players like Malkin were hurt that year, but then didn't want to apply the same reasoning to 2021 for McDavid with Kucherov. He wanted to have his 'pace' argument that Crosby's dominant 41 game run in 2011 can't be extrapolated over 82 games, but for some reason McDavid's 2021 pace over 56 games should be taken at face value.

He just doesn't argue in good faith, and that is okay, because I am ignoring his strawman arguments and attempts to move goal posts, and just correcting him on his misinformation at this point. That is all you can really do I suppose.

I think it's more that his posts legitimately don't show understanding of the arguments or of the points being made (while also being continuously actively going out of their way to disrespect, certainly that combination doesn't help things).

Edit: I just read the back and forth right above this post. You just brought up the idea of a strawman and it appears he legitimately thinks you're changing the subject what do you even say to that.

Anyway it's a public forum, what can you do. Besides continue to say some version of 'learn how to read / understand a basic argument' but it's pretty clear he's not going to. If I think of something to say I'll let you know

 

[GreatGonzo]

You know, a strawman. Like when we are arguing about whether Crosby can maintain his 41 game pace in 2011 over 82 games, and then when I bring up McDavid's 56 games in 2021 now we are suddenly talking about trophies. I know 2021 McDavid took home the trophies. I just didn't see him sustain that dominant pace over 82 games in a full season over his peers. And he didn't, as evidenced by the pack catching back up the very next season and Matthews outplaying him.

You literally made up all that nonsense that you CLAIMED I wrote. But I didn’t write it hence why you will never find it. Let’s stick to the truth, shall we?

My argument with Crosbys 41 game season is how it matches up with McDavids 2023. It has nothing to do with 2021, nor have I argued that. So that’s false on your part.

Again he literally sustained the same the same pace in 2023 and dominated in an 82 game season…

I think it's more than he legitimately doesn't understand the arguments or the points being made (while also being continuously trying to be disrespectful, certainly that doesn't help things).

Agree - it's a public forum, what can you do. Besides continue to say some version of 'learn how to read / understand a basic argument' but it's pretty clear he's not going to. If I think of something I'll let you know

More deflecting I see, still waiting for your answers. Feel free to keep trolling and making a fool of yourself though…

 

[PainForShane]

You literally made up all that nonsense that you CLAIMED I wrote. But I didn’t write it hence why you will never find it. Let’s stick to the truth, shall we?

My argument with Crosbys 41 game season is how it matches up with McDavids 2023. It has nothing to do with 2021, nor have I argued that. So that’s false on your part.

Again he literally sustained the same the same pace in 2023 and dominated in an 82 game season…


More deflecting I see, still waiting for your answers. Feel free to keep trolling and making a fool of yourself though…

The answers were given to you (and you directly), over 10 pages ago.

 

[GreatGonzo]

The answers were given to you (and you directly), over 10 pages ago.

You literally never gave an answer as to why Crosby would win with the Oilers when McDavid couldn’t. Unless you need other people to answer that for you due to your limited mind set.

 

[Video Nasty]

He wanted to have his 'pace' argument that Crosby's dominant 41 game run in 2011 can't be extrapolated over 82 games, but for some reason McDavid's 2021 pace over 56 games should be taken at face value.

This has been explained, but you don’t care or you simply don’t like the reality of what it determines (McDavid is the better player).

Crosby’s 41 game run wasn’t dominant. He had 15 points in his first 13 games. The 25 game heater he went on where he posted 50 points was dominant. Then he went scoreless in 2 games before exiting for the rest of the season in Game 41. The league went on and played another 41 games. He only played 50% of the schedule.

McDavid played the same amount of games as everyone else in 2020-2021. He played 100% of the schedule. He played 37% more games than Crosby did while having 46% fewer games available to him. He scored 105 points in 56 games, a point total well over 90% of the hockey world and this forum thought impossible. Check out a thread I made right before that season started: HFBoards being HFBoards It was made, voted No into oblivion, and closed within the same day, because it was seen as so unbelievable.

So McDavid dominates, wins a unanimous Hart, Lindsay, and Art Ross, and “paces” for 154 points.

He scores 153 two seasons later and sweeps the hardware again, falling 1 biased Pittsburgh vote shy of a second unanimous win.

He proved he could keep up a pace that he achieved during an abbreviated season during a full, normal season. He also played every single game in the process.

McDavid’s 2020-2021 is not being taken at face value (though it should, particularly when you are all swooning over a 99 game stretch where the player played only 47% of the games available to him. McDavid proved he could do it again, which I think has made reasonable people go back and give him full credit for 2020-2021 (again, as he should any way).

These are two entirely different scenarios. One is thinking a player could do something he ultimately never did. The other is a player playing all the games and repeating the feat.

 

[PainForShane]

You literally never gave an answer as to why Crosby would win with the Oilers when McDavid couldn’t. Unless you need other people to answer that for you due to your limited mind set.

Need is the wrong word.

But yeah, bambam answered this in detail literally one post above the post I made (the one you initially replied to, around the bottom of page 58 / top of 59. I don't feel the need to restate the argument in the post because... wait for it... I know how to read, and I assume other message board posters do as well. Obviously I appear to be mistaken in my assumption.

Bambam's post:

Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

Needs a Stanley Cup which he isn't winning until he fixes his character issues. Lets just say has character issues, that doesn't have any bearing on whether hell win a cup or not.

forums.hfboards.com

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Again he literally sustained the same the same pace in 2023 and dominated in an 82 game season…

I know he did it in 2023 over 82 games. That is the only time though. Is this one full season pace of dominance over his peers enough to put him in the Gretzky tier?

You are changing the argument now. You first argued that McDavids 2021 season wasn’t sustainable, even though he showed it was during his 2023 season. Now it’s he hasn’t dominated “enough.” Well, what’s enough for you?…

Yeah, I don't think it is sustainable. He couldn't do it the next year. He had a great performance in 2023. But it is one season. He didn't do it the next year. He can reach another level for a portion of time, but it is clearly not sustainable over the course of his prime, or even enough to make a clear cut pattern.

And in 2022 he won the Art Ross and was a Hart finalists. Pretty sure that’s a major award with some major recognition. Again, he also lead the playoffs in scoring that year. You said he won “no major awards.”

Yeah, Art Ross is a default award. I mean he was the scoring leader. He just wasn't voted for an major award. So I don't get the sticking point of twisting my words. He didn't follow it up with a dominant season. It was a good season, but one that Crosby has had many of in his career.

So we are going from, “he won no major awards.” To, “oh….well he won it by single digits.”

And I’m flip flopping?

I mean he wasn't voted on for any major awards. He won the Art Ross by single digits, not quite the dominant season like the one you are arguing in 2023 that he could sustain. 2023 is the only dominant season he has that can be compared to Gretzky/Mario/Orr/Howe.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Need is the wrong word.

But yeah, bambam answered this in detail literally one post above the post I made (the one you initially replied to, around the bottom of page 58 / top of 59. I don't feel the need to restate the argument in the post because... wait for it... I know how to read, and I assume other message board posters do as well. Obviously I appear to be mistaken in my assumption.

Bambam's post:

Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

Needs a Stanley Cup which he isn't winning until he fixes his character issues. Lets just say has character issues, that doesn't have any bearing on whether hell win a cup or not.

forums.hfboards.com

thats your evidence? Well good luck with that…

Also, very fitting of you that you couldn’t even muster up your own opinion on something you said but have to piggy back off of others to answer for you.

I know he did it in 2023 over 82 games. That is the only time though. Is this one full season pace of dominance over his peers enough to put him in the Gretzky tier?

Yeah, I don't think it is sustainable. He couldn't do it the next year. He had a great performance in 2023. But it is one season. He didn't do it the next year. He can reach another level for a portion of time, but it is clearly not sustainable over the course of his prime, or even enough to make a clear cut pattern.

Yeah, Art Ross is a default award. I mean he was the scoring leader. He just wasn't voted for an major award. So I don't get the sticking point of twisting my words. He didn't follow it up with a dominant season. It was a good season, but one that Crosby has had many of in his career.

I mean he wasn't voted on for any major awards. He won the Art Ross by single digits, not quite the dominant season like the one you are arguing in 2023 that he could sustain. 2023 is the only dominant season he has that can be compared to Gretzky/Mario/Orr/Howe.

You clearly said, he didn’t sustain his pace that he had in 2021 AFTER that year….yet he did in 2023 over 82 games. You: “oh…well that’s the only time.” You really enjoy switching the standards don’t you?

So now we are going from, he didn’t do it AT ALL, to…he didn’t do it multiple times. Interesting…

More moving the goal posts I see so the Art Ross isn’t a major award? Interesting…you are literally twisting your words around with your constant back and forth.

Also to the bolded, he was literally a Hart and Lindsay finalists….so yes he was voted on for major awards….unless suddenly the Hart and Lindsay aren’t “major awards.”

 

[PainForShane]

thats your evidence? Well good luck with that…

Also, very fitting of you that you couldn’t even muster up your own opinion on something you said but have to piggy back off of others to answer for you.

You clearly said, he didn’t sustain his pace that he had in 2021 AFTER that year….yet he did in 2023 over 82 games. You: “oh…well that’s the only time.” You really enjoy switching the standards don’t you?

So now we are going from, he didn’t do it AT ALL, to…he didn’t do it multiple times. Interesting…

More moving the goal posts I see so the Art Ross isn’t a major award? Interesting…

Also to the bolded, he was literally a Hart and Lindsay finalists….so yes he voted for major awards….unless suddenly the Hart and Lindsay aren’t “major awards.”

That's not what he said.

 

[GreatGonzo]

That's not what he said.

“He won no major awards.”
“He won the Art Ross.”
“Well that’s a DEFAULT award…besides he wasn’t voted on for any REAL awards.”
“He was a Hart and Lindsay finalists..”

 

[DitchMarner]

You know, a strawman. Like when we are arguing about whether Crosby can maintain his 41 game pace in 2011 over 82 games, and then when I bring up McDavid's 56 games in 2021 now we are suddenly talking about trophies. I know 2021 McDavid took home the trophies. I just didn't see him sustain that dominant pace over 82 games in a full season over his peers. And he didn't, as evidenced by the pack catching back up the very next season and Matthews outplaying him.

The difference between McDavid's 2021 season and Crosby's 2011 season is that he played an entire season. He played the full schedule. If you compare his PPG dominance from that season to that of other players, you aren't comparing half a season's worth of games to a full season.

The equivalent to Crosby's season would be if he played 28 games and had the type of PPG dominance he had and people were comparing that to 56 game seasons and close to 56 game seasons from other players.

 

[wetcoast]

that doesn’t make it less of a dominant season. Everyone’s season was cut short, and like I said before, he followed it up.

No it’s how you romanticized it. It’s not needed. It was a great season by Crosby, there’s no need to flirt with the idea that he would have or might have won the Rocket….or was close to it.

Again, 2021 was a dominant seaoson. A dominant FULL season? No, but it’s a full season given the context of that year.

It was a dominant season but the Northern division also had the worst by far collective GA grouping of teams from the previous season and it was a totally unbalanced schedule to boot.

We don't know what McDavid would have done in a full regular balanced schedule so there is some guesswork there which is something you don't apply fairly it seems.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

This has been explained, but you don’t care or you simply don’t like the reality of what it determines (McDavid is the better player).

Crosby’s 41 game run wasn’t dominant. He had 15 points in his first 13 games. The 25 game heater he went on where he posted 50 points was dominant. Then he went scoreless in 2 games before exiting for the rest of the season in Game 41. The league went on and played another 41 games. He only played 50% of the schedule.

Yeah it was dominant. He scored 32 goals in 41 games. He added the garbage around the net goal to his game and was one of the best to ever do it. He was tracking to not only dominate in goals, but do it without sacrificing any of his playmaking.

McDavid played the same amount of games as everyone else in 2020-2021. He played 100% of the schedule. He played 37% more games than Crosby did while having 46% fewer games available to him. He scored 105 points in 56 games, a point total well over 90% of the hockey world and this forum thought impossible. Check out a thread I made right before that season started: HFBoards being HFBoards It was made, voted No into oblivion, and closed within the same day, because it was seen as so unbelievable.

Everyone? Kucherov played 0 games that year. You can argue for his covid shortened season against the canadian teams all you want, but it doesn't make you look less like a hypocrite for doing so.

So McDavid dominates, wins a unanimous Hart, Lindsay, and Art Ross, and “paces” for 154 points.

So we do like the pace arguments.

He scores 153 two seasons later and sweeps the hardware again, falling 1 biased Pittsburgh vote shy of a second unanimous win.

He proved he could keep up a pace that he achieved during an abbreviated season during a full, normal season. He also played every single game in the process.

Yup, he proved it one time.

McDavid’s 2020-2021 is not being taken at face value (though it should, particularly when you are all swooning over a 99 game stretch where the player played only 47% of the games available to him. McDavid proved he could do it again, which I think has made reasonable people go back and give him full credit for 2020-2021 (again, as he should any way).

These are two entirely different scenarios. One is thinking a player could do something he ultimately never did. The other is a player playing all the games and repeating the feat.

So yes, on one hand we are saying Crosby can't maintain his 99 game sample size over the course of full seasons. McDavid does it literally one time, and now we are pretending like that is a level that is sustainable? A one season peak?

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

You clearly said, he didn’t sustain his pace that he had in 2021 AFTER that year….yet he did in 2023 over 82 games. You: “oh…well that’s the only time.” You really enjoy switching the standards don’t you?

Yeah, sustaining means he doesn't fall off. Dominant one year and then not dominant the next, then dominant the next year would be inconsistent play, not sustained play.

So now we are going from, he didn’t do it AT ALL, to…he didn’t do it multiple times. Interesting…

Well, we never were at the 'Didn't do it at all' point, considering I have never stopped saying that he did it in 2023. You could say I sustained that position.

More moving the goal posts I see so the Art Ross isn’t a major award? Interesting…you are literally twisting your words around with your constant back and forth.

No goal posts. I clarified. Media members got together and didn't think he was worthy of any major awards. It was the opinion of the voters that he didn't have a dominant season. I acknowledged he won the art ross by single digits. That doesn't equate to a Gretzky level dominant season.

Also to the bolded, he was literally a Hart and Lindsay finalists….so yes he was voted on for major awards….unless suddenly the Hart and Lindsay aren’t “major awards.”

Well, he didn't win them. If you want to bring up dominant seasons outside of 2023 that McDavid sustained that level of play, you might want to choose a different year than 2022.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yeah, sustaining means he doesn't fall off. Dominant one year and then not dominant the next, then dominant the next year would be inconsistent play, not sustained play.

Well, we never were at the 'Didn't do it at all' point, considering I have never stopped saying that he did it in 2023. You could say I sustained that position.

No goal posts. I clarified. Media members got together and didn't think he was worthy of any major awards. It was the opinion of the voters that he didn't have a dominant season. I acknowledged he won the art ross by single digits. That doesn't equate to a Gretzky level dominant season.

Well, he didn't win them. If you want to bring up dominant seasons outside of 2023 that McDavid sustained that level of play, you might want to choose a different year than 2022.

And he was able to SUSTAIN the same pace he had through 56 games(153) in ‘21, through out an 82 game season. Ok…it was one season. Still he sustained that pace. It being just one time doesn’t make that not a fact.

You are the one who keeps changing up the standards so maybe stay a little more consistent.

Ok, so we went from he wasn’t voted on AT ALL, to he didn’t win….you are aware those can be completely different, right? So now…that you have changed it to fit your argument…no, he didn’t win the Hart or Lindsay, but he was voted for both, which holds a lot of value….
It doesn’t matter if he won it by single digits. He won a major award….because leading the NHL in points is in fact a major accomplishment. Let’s keep ignoring that he won the ‘21 Ross by 21 points and the ‘23 by 25 though…

Well, no that’s not how that works. He once again won most of the major awards, beat the next best player(his teammate) by 21 points. He was on pace for 48 goals and 105 assists for 153 points. Now the question was, could he had sustained that pace for an 82 game season. The answer is yes, see 2023. You decided to focus on 2022 as the end all-be all for why it was t sustainable.

You first say, he won no MAJOR awards, as if a 123 point Art Ross season is somehow not impressive. You then say he wasn’t voted on for any major awards. He was a Hart and Lindsay finalists, which again speaks for itself.

Was it as dominant as the prior or the one after, no. Doesn’t mean it deserves to be discredited with, “ya but he only won by single digits, so…”

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

And he was able to SUSTAIN the same pace he had through 56 games(153) in ‘21, through out an 82 game season. Ok…it was one season. Still he sustained that pace. It being just one time doesn’t make that not a fact.

You are the one who keeps changing up the standards so maybe stay a little more consistent.

Well I never said it wasn't a fact. He did it one time. In fact, I believe I led the conversation with that 'fact'

The standards are clear. Howe/Gretzky/Mario/Orr tier? Or is he on Crosby/Ovechkin/Hasek/Lidstrom/Jagr tier? Its like the entire basis of the thread.

I can hold your hand through this conversation only so far. My point is that if McDavid is on the former tier, then he would have sustained his play over the course of multiple dominant seasons over his peers. Not just once in 2023.

Ok, so we went from he wasn’t voted on AT ALL, to he didn’t win….you are aware those can be completely different, right?

Yeah, I guess if you want to be pedantic. I assume you are chucking objects at people when they ask you to throw them something instead of handing it to them.

So now…that you have changed it to fit your argument…no, he didn’t win the Hart or Lindsay, but he was voted for both, which holds a lot of value….
It doesn’t matter if he won it by single digits. He won a major award….because leading the NHL in points is in fact a major accomplishment. Let’s keep ignoring that he won the ‘21 Ross by 21 points and the ‘23 by 25 though…

I don't want to change the argument. The argument was the one above. You seem to want to be pedantic about what the word vote means vs win, instead of just acknowledging he didn't dominate the competition in 2022.

Well, no that’s not how that works. He once again won most of the major awards, beat the next best player(his teammate) by 21 points. He was on pace for 48 goals and 105 assists for 153 points. Now the question was, could he had sustained that pace for an 82 game season. The answer is yes, see 2023. You decided to focus on 2022 as the end all-be all for why it was t sustainable.

The question was, is he on the Howe/Gretzky/Mario/Orr tier? Or is he on Crosby/Ovechkin/Hasek/Lidstrom/Jagr tier? If he was in the former, he would have sustained that level of dominance over his peers, not just done it in 2023. The answer is no, outside of this weird covid shortened year where his biggest competition didn't play, and he only played a handful of canadian teams, we have no evidence of McDavid dominating his competition on a level above what Crosby did.

You first say, he won no MAJOR awards, as if a 123 point Art Ross season is somehow not impressive. You then say he wasn’t voted on for any major awards. He was a Hart and Lindsay finalists, which again speaks for itself.

Was it as dominant as the prior or the one after, no. Doesn’t mean it deserves to be discredited with, “ya but he only won by single digits, so…”

Yeah, he won the Art Ross by single digits in 2022. Not sure if this is your evidence for him being an entire tier above Crosby, or if you even know where you are.

 

[norrisnick]

It’s bizarre the mental gymnastics one has to do to think that MacKinnon can win a Hart and out score prime McDavid, but Crosby, who is better than MacKinnon wouldn’t be able to keep up.

I mean, the Sedins and Benn were giving him troubles...

 

[Video Nasty]

Yeah it was dominant. He scored 32 goals in 41 games. He added the garbage around the net goal to his game and was one of the best to ever do it. He was tracking to not only dominate in goals, but do it without sacrificing any of his playmaking.

Everyone? Kucherov played 0 games that year. You can argue for his covid shortened season against the canadian teams all you want, but it doesn't make you look less like a hypocrite for doing so.

So we do like the pace arguments.

Yup, he proved it one time.

So yes, on one hand we are saying Crosby can't maintain his 99 game sample size over the course of full seasons. McDavid does it literally one time, and now we are pretending like that is a level that is sustainable? A one season peak?

You said a dominant 41 games. No, it was a dominant 25 games. The end.

Since January 1, 2018, a stretch in which he has played 477 games while missing only 19, McDavid has scored at a higher clip than Crosby did for those 99 games. McDavid is the living embodiment of all your what if fantasies and you can’t even enjoy it. Why you’re so mesmerized by Crosby is beyond me.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Well I never said it wasn't a fact. He did it one time. In fact, I believe I led the conversation with that 'fact'

The standards are clear. Howe/Gretzky/Mario/Orr tier? Or is he on Crosby/Ovechkin/Hasek/Lidstrom/Jagr tier? Its like the entire basis of the thread.

I can hold your hand through this conversation only so far. My point is that if McDavid is on the former tier, then he would have sustained his play over the course of multiple dominant seasons over his peers. Not just once in 2023.

Yeah, I guess if you want to be pedantic. I assume you are chucking objects at people when they ask you to throw them something instead of handing it to them.

I don't want to change the argument. The argument was the one above. You seem to want to be pedantic about what the word vote means vs win, instead of just acknowledging he didn't dominate the competition in 2022.

The question was, is he on the Howe/Gretzky/Mario/Orr tier? Or is he on Crosby/Ovechkin/Hasek/Lidstrom/Jagr tier? If he was in the former, he would have sustained that level of dominance over his peers, not just done it in 2023. The answer is no, outside of this weird covid shortened year where his biggest competition didn't play, and he only played a handful of canadian teams, we have no evidence of McDavid dominating his competition on a level above what Crosby did.

Yeah, he won the Art Ross by single digits in 2022. Not sure if this is your evidence for him being an entire tier above Crosby, or if you even know where you are.

“I can hold your hand through the conversation.” You can barely sustain your own side of things and once again, he did it twice, not just once. You can call it whatever you want. It was a season where he dominated his peers.

Or you can just own up to the fact that your attempt to belittle his 2022 season was full of nonsense. You are the one who dug yourself deeper with your constant moving the goal posts and look for reasons to devalue it, only to be wrong every time.

So we are now on the same page that the Art Ross is a major award, correct? It’s “context” that you decided to mention in attempt to make it look less impressive because you realize calling the Art Ross a non major award was more than silly.

 

[Regal]

You said a dominant 41 games. No, it was a dominant 25 games. The end.

Since January 1, 2018, a stretch in which he has played 477 games while missing only 19, McDavid has scored at a higher clip than Crosby did for those 99 games. McDavid is the living embodiment of all your what if fantasies and you can’t even enjoy it. Why you’re so mesmerized by Crosby is beyond me.

This is such a dumb way to look at it. If that’s the case you shouldn’t hold McDavid’s 20-21 as a Lemieux-like since he had 69 points through the first 42 games then 36 points in the final 14 games.