Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[PainForShane]

This thread has made it clear that simply comparing career achievements and paces is not changing anybody’s mind. I think the discussion should instead be comparing the actual players individually. Put this year’s Mcdavid on any of Pittsburgh’s cup teams and he would outperform Crosby. Put prime Crosby on this year’s version of the Oilers and they maybe make it past the first round.

Put prime Crosby on this year's version of the Oilers and they would've won the Stanley Cup Finals

 

[DitchMarner]

No it does not imply that. It implies that statistical evidence isn't enough to say a player is better than another throughout eras.

Otherwise we'd also say Matthews is a better goalscorer than Ovi.

You can compare players offensively from different eras based on domination of the scoring race. McDavid has lapped the field twice (more than Crosby did in his best seasons). MacK has never won an Art Ross. Kucherov has two Art Ross wins, but his scoring dominance relative to the other top scorers wasn't as impressive in either win as McDavid's was in 2021 or 2023.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Put prime Crosby on this year's version of the Oilers and they would've won the Stanley Cup Finals

Based on what?

The Oilers scored 21 goals in 25 games without McDavid or Draisaitl on the ice. The 2009 Penguins scored 20 goals in 24 games without Crosby or Malkin on the ice. And subtracting PP and EN goals since those are more dependent on opportunity (the Oilers stars play the whole PP), Edmonton's depth outscored Pittsburgh 17 to 14.

And this is despite the Penguins not loading up their top 6, their 3rd best forward played on the 3rd line. The Oilers 3rd and 4th best forwards played with McDavid. The Oilers best two Dmen also played almost exclusively with McDavid's line. And the Oilers' 3rd and 4th line got much less ice time because the top 2 lines were on the ice so often. And they still outscored the Penguins' depth.

So I agree, you put Crosby on that team, and they don't just make the finals, they win.

It seems like people think Crosby would bring something that McDavid lacks that would somehow change the outcome.

A lot are also forgetting the state of the Oilers when McDavid was struggling(5-12-1) and in that time McDavid was 16-6-10-16 and was a -8. He then took off with 32 points his next 17 games and the team went 14-3. The team heavily relied on him this year just to even get a playoff spot. Could Crosby, at his age, would have been able to even get the oilers into the playoffs? Could he have gotten them out of that slump? Doubt it.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Based on what?

going on history, I’d guess answer is because.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The Oilers scored 21 goals in 25 games without McDavid or Draisaitl on the ice. The 2009 Penguins scored 20 goals in 24 games without Crosby or Malkin on the ice.

so basically the same, other than ifs and buts, that I removed.
So oilers pair on the ice for 61 goals
Pens pair on the ice for 55 goals

Noticed you skipped over, McDavid 195 first place votes out of 196. Except for the one Pittsburgh voter who embarrassed himself.

 

[pi314]

I get that as well as league scoring going up/injuries. but let's not act like crosby has any season even close to mcdavids 2 best. mcdavid winning the smythe on a losing team speaks for itself, better po then any of crosbys.

Read the bolded part again.

I can think of 3 reasons why McDavid would rather had points in game 7 instead of late in an 8-1 blowout.

Reason #1.

Reason #2.

Reason #3.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Read the bolded part again.

I can think of 3 reasons why McDavid would rather had points in game 7 instead of late in an 8-1 blowout.

Reason #1.

View attachment 896852

Reason #2.

View attachment 896853

Reason #3.

View attachment 896855

Remind me, how many points did Crosby have in game 7? Or better yet, how many did he have in the series?

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Here are some stats from a post I made just before the finals:
Oilers defensman expected goal differential (playoffs):
Ceci: -9.1
Desharnais: -5.1
Kulak: -3.5
Nurse: -3.4
Broberg: -.8
Ekholm: 2.7
Bouchard: 25.4!
Edmonton is a plus 15 goal differential, so for most of their defenseman to be negative is impressive.
In terms of forwards:
Hyman: 22.2
Mcdavid:22.1
Draisaitl: 19.8
Nuge: 8.8
Perry: 3.4
Kane: 1

They have no other forwards that are positive in this stat. In fact, their bottom 8 forwards all have sub 50% expected goals percentage.

Oilers bottom six points in playoffs:
Brown: 4 points 12 gp
Janmark: 4 in 18 gp
Henrique: 4 in 10
Foegle: 3 in 15
Perry: 1 in 13
Ryan: 1 in 14
McLeod: 1 in 17
Carrick: 1 in 9
Holloway has been playing with Drai and he only has 4 pts in 18 games!
That’s a combined 23 pts in 126 games!!!
That’s a 15 point pace over 82 gp.
8 of Edmonton’s forwards combined production is equal to one 4th liner’s production.


Prime Crosby does not take that team to the finals.

Something that a lot of teams have struggled to do in the postseason to have success with superstar players, has been to spread the talent around the lineup. We’ve seen Edmonton stack up their first 2 lines to help Drai and McDavid as much as possible to score while filling up the 3rd and 4th line with the dust remaining. We’ve seen the same strategy deployed by Washington for most of Ovechkin’s tenure, which was to stack up his line (with Backstrom) and let the other lines drown to make sure the stars had help to perform.

It has been the opposite in Pittsburgh since basically the start of Crosby’s and Malkin’s career; where they spread the talent throughout the lineup, which helped them tremendously in the playoffs. It’s a big reason why they won 3 cups while the Caps and Oilers have a combined one during the Crosby era. In fact, Pittsburgh has won the cup as many times from 2005 to 2024 as Edmonton and Washington reached the conference finals (combined) with McDavid/Ovechkin on the team.

In 2009, their 3 best forwards were arguably Crosby, Malkin and Staal. They all played on separate lines to make sure the scoring could be as evenly distributed as possible. So if you look up at the overall help Crosby had in 2009 after 3 rounds vs the help McDavid had, it goes like this:

Pittsburgh
Malkin: 28 pts in 17 games
Guerin: 14 pts in 17 games
Gonchar: 12 pts in 15 games
Kunitz: 12 pts in 17 games
Fedotenko: 11 pts in 17 games
Letang: 9 pts in 16 games
Talbot: 7 pts in 17 games
Cooke: 7 pts in 17 games
Kennedy: 6 pts in 17 games
Eaton: 6 pts in 17 games
Staal: 6 pts in 17 games
Satan: 6 pts in 11 games
Adams: 5 pts in 17 games
Boucher: 4 pts in 8 games
Orpik: 4 pts in 17 games
Scuderi: 3 pts in 17 games
Gill: 2 pts in 17 games
Goligoski: 1 pt in 2 games
Sykora: 1 pt in 6 games
Dupuis: 0 pts in 17 games

That gives you a grand total of 144 pts in 306 games (0,47 PPG)

Edmonton

Draisaitl: 28 pts in 18 games
Bouchard: 27 pts in 18 games
RNH: 20 pts in 18 games
Hyman: 18 pts in 18 games
Kane: 8 pts in 18 games
Ekholm: 7 pts in 18 games
Kulak: 5 pts in 18 games
Holloway: 4 pts in 18 games
Janmark: 4 pts in 18 games
Ceci: 4 pts in 18 games
Henrique: 4 pts in 10 games
Brown: 4 pts in 12 games
Foegele: 3 pts in 10 games
Nurse: 3 pts in 18 games
Broberg: 1 pt in 3 games
McLeod: 1 pt in 17 games
Desharnais: 1 pt in 13 games
Ryan: 1 pt in 4 games
Carrick: 1 pt in 9 games
Perry: 1 pt in 13 games

That gives you a grand total of 145 pts in 324 games (0,45)

So in the end, when you also consider that McDavid played on average a bit more than 1 min per game more than Crosby, which gave his scoring support around 18 mins less of TOI to produce, their offensive support was fairly similar through the first 3 rounds. Crosby DID, in fact, take a team who provided similar offensive production than the 2024 Oilers to the finals, in 2009. Crosby might’ve had a bit more secondary help, but McDavid had more primary help.

 

[nowhereman]

Here are some stats from a post I made just before the finals:
Oilers defensman expected goal differential (playoffs):
Ceci: -9.1
Desharnais: -5.1
Kulak: -3.5
Nurse: -3.4
Broberg: -.8
Ekholm: 2.7
Bouchard: 25.4!
Edmonton is a plus 15 goal differential, so for most of their defenseman to be negative is impressive.
In terms of forwards:
Hyman: 22.2
Mcdavid:22.1
Draisaitl: 19.8
Nuge: 8.8
Perry: 3.4
Kane: 1

They have no other forwards that are positive in this stat. In fact, their bottom 8 forwards all have sub 50% expected goals percentage.

Oilers bottom six points in playoffs:
Brown: 4 points 12 gp
Janmark: 4 in 18 gp
Henrique: 4 in 10
Foegle: 3 in 15
Perry: 1 in 13
Ryan: 1 in 14
McLeod: 1 in 17
Carrick: 1 in 9
Holloway has been playing with Drai and he only has 4 pts in 18 games!
That’s a combined 23 pts in 126 games!!!
That’s a 15 point pace over 82 gp.
8 of Edmonton’s forwards combined production is equal to one 4th liner’s production.


Prime Crosby does not take that team to the finals.

Prime Crosby 100% leads the current version of the Oilers to the Finals against an injured Canucks team and a fairly easily dispatched Dallas team. The notion that a Crosby-led Oilers team "might" beat the LA Kings is just utter nonsense.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Prime Crosby 100% leads the current version Oilers to the Finals against an injured Canucks team and fairly easily dispatched Dallas team. The notion that a Crosby-led Oilers team only "might" beat the LA Kings is just utter nonsense.

It’s crazy how much the narrative as changed

The Canucks were the talk of the NHL for a good portion of the season. They also went undefeated against the Oilers during the regular season. Best D-man in the league, rising talent in Pettersson, and Solid offensive guys in Miller and Boeser. The Oilers beat them in 7, “oh well they were injured so it’s not impressive.”

Dallas? Dallas was supposed to KILL the oilers according to many here and especially the media and “experts.” Oilers beat them in 6, “fairly easily dispatched team.”

What exactly would prime Crosby bring to the table that McDavid didn’t?

 

[I am not exposed]

It’s crazy how much the narrative as changed

The Canucks were the talk of the NHL for a good portion of the season. They also went undefeated against the Oilers during the regular season. Best D-man in the league, rising talent in Pettersson, and Solid offensive guys in Miller and Boeser. The Oilers beat them in 7, “oh well they were injured so it’s not impressive.”

Dallas? Dallas was supposed to KILL the oilers according to many here and especially the media and “experts.” Oilers beat them in 6, “fairly easily dispatched team.”

What exactly would prime Crosby bring to the table that McDavid didn’t?

Intangibles, high fives, chirping, steely eyed gaze, and other such unmeasurable nonsense.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

mcdavid winning the smythe on a losing team speaks for itself, better po then any of crosbys.

Pretty odd how Crosby went from one of the greatest playoff performers of all time and best of his generation to severely underrated on these boards because of playing in the dead puck era 2.0 and the scoring explosion that followed

Is it more or less bizarre than the argument that McDavid, MacKinnon, and Kucherov are all in the same tier?

It’s bizarre the mental gymnastics one has to do to think that MacKinnon can win a Hart and out score prime McDavid, but Crosby, who is better than MacKinnon wouldn’t be able to keep up.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Maybe that has something to do with the weak competition or something…

Okay…

Yes he did, in 2021. It just wasn’t as “dominant” for your liking.

Interesting. Kucherov has taken 2 Art Ross races against prime McDavid, but we don’t want to bring up that right after we punish Crosby for Malkin being hurt? Can’t even hide your agenda.

2021 in a Canada only division isn’t the same thing as a full season against the entire league. It’s just not. It will forever have that asterisks for many people, but whatever.

Almost had an award sweep? How so? Ovechkin had 15 more goals than Crosby. Also Crosby was healthy that year(played 80 games.)

Well he won the Hart, Art Ross, Pearson, and went against the greatest goal scorer of all time.

Well no, he didn’t follow up those 99 games through 3 seasons with some juggernaut season. In fact all those numbers are projections. There is no way of knowing if he could or couldn’t sustain that level of play.

We know because he sandwiched those seasons with 2 dominant seasons. Does McDavid have the ability to go 2023 in a normal 82 game season across the league? Clearly he can’t sustain his ‘Gretzky Pace’ comparisons, because in 9 seasons he has put a season that has rivaled Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr/Howe exactly one time.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Intangibles, high fives, chirping, steely eyed gaze, and other such unmeasurable nonsense.

His leadership abilities were actually the only reason why Talbot scored those 2 goals.

If Only McDavid could had lead his team to score more goals, it would have been different.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Okay…

Interesting. Kucherov has taken 2 Art Ross races against prime McDavid, but we don’t want to bring up that right after we punish Crosby for Malkin being hurt? Can’t even hide your agenda.

2021 in a Canada only division isn’t the same thing as a full season against the entire league. It’s just not. It will forever have that asterisks for many people, but whatever.

Well he won the Hart, Art Ross, Pearson, and went against the greatest goal scorer of all time.

We know because he sandwiched those seasons with 2 dominant seasons. Does McDavid have the ability to go 2023 in a normal 82 game season across the league? Clearly he can’t sustain his ‘Gretzky Pace’ comparisons, because in 9 seasons he has put a season that has rivaled Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr/Howe exactly one time.

What does that have to do with his dominant season? You said he only had 1 and you are incorrect, 2021 was very much dominant no matter how much you attempt to dissect it.

Thats not “almost sweeping the awards.” Is that an excuse as to why he wouldn’t have? Pretty sure he finished 7th in goals that year. I doubt he was going to win the rocket. Nice story telling though.

You mean 2021, right? I mean he did so in 2023….that wasn’t sustainable enough for you? We have no telling if Crosby could have sustained his pace, with McDavid he actually gave an idea. For Crosby, it’s purely speculation.

 

[PainForShane]

so basically the same, other than ifs and buts, that I removed.
So oilers pair on the ice for 61 goals
Pens pair on the ice for 55 goals

Noticed you skipped over, McDavid 195 first place votes out of 196. Except for the one Pittsburgh voter who embarrassed himself.

And what exactly do those votes have to do with McDavid's performance in the playoffs and what Crosby would've done in his stead (which is what the post you replied to was clearly discussing).

I noticed the answer is absolutely nothing.

And also, 'basically the same' is close enough to the main point that bambam was arguing. Glad you picked up on that at least.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

What does that have to do with his dominant season? You said he only had 1 and you are incorrect, 2021 was very much dominant no matter how much you attempt to dissect it.

Well its a covid lockdown shortened season, so its not a full season. So try to keep up. That is not even accounting for the fact that it was against Canada only teams in a season where Kucherov was hurt.

Thats not “almost sweeping the awards.” Is that an excuse as to why he wouldn’t have? Pretty sure he finished 7th in goals that year. I doubt he was going to win the rocket. Nice story telling though.

Winning 3 out of 4 awards it 'almost' as it is 1 away from sweeping. We can have different opinions of almost, and if this is the win you desperately need then take it.

You mean 2021, right? I mean he did so in 2023….that wasn’t sustainable enough for you? We have no telling if Crosby could have sustained his pace, with McDavid he actually gave an idea. For Crosby, it’s purely speculation.

No, I mean 2023 is the only full season where McDavid sustained a dominant Gretzky/Orr/Lemieux/Howe pace over his peers. Try to keep up. If McDavid was capable of sustaining that for more than one full season, then maybe we can talk. Otherwise, he looks like a tier below those guys.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Well its a covid lockdown shortened season, so its not a full season. So try to keep up. That is not even accounting for the fact that it was against Canada only teams in a season where Kucherov was hurt.

Winning 3 out of 4 awards it 'almost' as it is 1 away from sweeping. We can have different opinions of almost, and if this is the win you desperately need then take it.

No, I mean 2023 is the only full season where McDavid sustained a dominant Gretzky/Orr/Lemieux/Howe pace over his peers. Try to keep up. If McDavid was capable of sustaining that for more than one full season, then maybe we can talk. Otherwise, he looks like a tier below those guys.

that doesn’t make it less of a dominant season. Everyone’s season was cut short, and like I said before, he followed it up.

No it’s how you romanticized it. It’s not needed. It was a great season by Crosby, there’s no need to flirt with the idea that he would have or might have won the Rocket….or was close to it.

Again, 2021 was a dominant seaoson. A dominant FULL season? No, but it’s a full season given the context of that year.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

McDavid 195 out of 196 first place votes.
The one voter had him 5th was a Pittsburgh writer lol.

I guess I wonder how McDavid having a dominant season in 2023 takes away from Crosby's dominant season in 2014.

 

[PainForShane]

Well its a covid lockdown shortened season, so its not a full season. So try to keep up. That is not even accounting for the fact that it was against Canada only teams in a season where Kucherov was hurt.

Winning 3 out of 4 awards it 'almost' as it is 1 away from sweeping. We can have different opinions of almost, and if this is the win you desperately need then take it.

No, I mean 2023 is the only full season where McDavid sustained a dominant Gretzky/Orr/Lemieux/Howe pace over his peers. Try to keep up. If McDavid was capable of sustaining that for more than one full season, then maybe we can talk. Otherwise, he looks like a tier below those guys.

I'm not sure how many more ways there are to say, "learn how to read," "try to keep up" etc. He still won't do it. "So basically..." followed by nonsense that has nothing to do with the actual points being discussed -- what do you even say to that. What can you say?

I might have to break out a thesaurus at some point. I'll let you (and everyone else) know if I find a good one.

In the meantime, he still didn't understand your point about the shortened season even though you repeated it twice (one more than I would've done, not that it's necessarily the wrong decision). And whether or not you agree with your point, the argument is valid and not at all difficult to understand

 

[GreatGonzo]

And what exactly do those votes have to do with McDavid's performance in the playoffs and what Crosby would've done in his stead (which is what the post you replied to was clearly discussing).

I noticed the answer is absolutely nothing.

And also, 'basically the same' is close enough to the main point that bambam was arguing. Glad you picked up on that at least.

You stated that if you Put prime Crosby on this year's version of the Oilers and they would've won the Stanley Cup Finals….what are you basing this off of?

What else does your crystal ball tell you?..

I'm not sure how many more ways there are to say, "learn how to read," "try to keep up" etc. He still won't do it. "So basically..." followed by nonsense that has nothing to do with the actual points being discussed -- what do you even say to that. What can you say?

Might have to break out a thesaurus at some point. I'll let you (and everyone else) know if I find a good one. In the meantime, he still didn't understand your point about the shortened season even though you repeated it twice (one more than I would've done, not that it's necessarily the wrong decision)

You still haven’t explained how McDavid in the ‘24 finals, underperformed while Crosby in ‘09 performed better

I’ll wait for your deflection.

 

[PainForShane]

You stated that if you Put prime Crosby on this year's version of the Oilers and they would've won the Stanley Cup Finals….what are you basing this off of?

What else does your crystal ball tell you?..


You still haven’t explained how McDavid in the ‘24 finals, underperformed while Crosby in ‘09 performed better

I’ll wait for your deflection.

I explained the answer to both of these questions many times. So did multiple other posters. One even wrote a detailed game by game breakdown of the 09 series. Try to keep up, learn how to read etc.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I explained this many times. Try to keep up, learn how to read etc.

No, you didn’t.

I’m waiting though. It shouldn’t be THAT hard to explain again since it’s such valuable information, right?

Or are you just going to continue and deflect while attacking my reading comprehension…

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

that doesn’t make it less of a dominant season. Everyone’s season was cut short, and like I said before, he followed it up.

It does make it not a full 82 game season. You can't flip flop on partial season paces for Crosby and then give McDavid full credit for a 56 game pace.

Also it looks like he didn't follow it up with anything dominant. No major awards won the next year.

No it’s how you romanticized it. It’s not needed. It was a great season by Crosby, there’s no need to flirt with the idea that he would have or might have won the Rocket….or was close to it.

But 3 out of 4 is 'almost' sweeping the awards, right? We can disagree, its a moot point.

Again, 2021 was a dominant seaoson. A dominant FULL season? No, but it’s a full season given the context of that year.

It isn't a full season. 82 games is a full season. It was classified as a 'covid shortened season' and in the context of wondering if McDavid can sustain the pace over the course of the length of a normal NHL season, it really doesn't apply to anything, unless you want to change your stance on the 'pace' argument, but you dug your heels pretty deep on that one.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I explained the answer to both of these questions many times. So did multiple other posters. One even wrote a detailed game by game breakdown of the 09 series. Try to keep up, learn how to read etc.

No, no one did. It’s purely a “because I say so” excuse. Please tell us all, why/how would Crosby win with that Oilers team when McDavid couldn’t?

It does make it not a full 82 game season. You can't flip flop on partial season paces for Crosby and then give McDavid full credit for a 56 game pace.

Also it looks like he didn't follow it up with anything dominant. No major awards won the next year.

But 3 out of 4 is 'almost' sweeping the awards, right? We can disagree, its a moot point.

It isn't a full season. 82 games is a full season. It was classified as a 'covid shortened season' and in the context of wondering if McDavid can sustain the pace over the course of the length of a normal NHL season, it really doesn't apply to anything, unless you want to change your stance on the 'pace' argument, but you dug your heels pretty deep on that one.

How am I flip flopping? Crosby didn’t put up 100+ points in a shortened season, winning the Ross, Pearson, and Hart. There’s no need to use “pace.” He achieved what he achieved. He THEN followed it up with his 2023 season. Crosby didn’t follow it up with a more dominant season.

No major awards in 2022? The Art Ross isn’t a major award, interesting…he also lead the playoffs in scoring that year as well with 33 points in 16 games. There’s no award for that but it’s worth noting.

He did show he could sustain it….what is so hard about understanding that?…

2021: 56-33-72-105. That’s 82-48-105-153 pace and a 1.87 PPG
2023: 82-64-89-153 points…that’s a 1.86 PPG