Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[Video Nasty]

Huh?

Ovechkin didn't "lose his powers at age 24" as you claimed above, he led the league in goals 7 times in 8 years starting from his age 27 season and he scored 50 goals at age 36. He's also a goal scorer (which is not necessarily the

Yeah he did. Anyone who watched the first five years of his career, particularly 2007-2008 through most of 2009-2010 knows he was an entirely different animal. He was never the best player in the world after that and he was still only 24 when it occurred.

 

[blundluntman]

I just don't see a very concrete argument for Crosby at his peak being on the same tier as McDavid. He doesn't have a 2023 (or 2021) level of dominance under his belt and his two way play didn't become a serious factor until his offensive game was already a few tiers below McDavid's peak (around 2018-19); during his peak, his two way play was above average but not great enough to bridge the gap between the two afaic.

It's possible he was at a similar level in 2011 but injuries robbed him of a chance to prove it was sustainable over an entire season; same for 2013. Either way, I think a lot of Crosby's case against McDavid (at their peaks) relies pretty heavily on speculation.

I'm genuinely not interested in the Stanley Cup/team accomplishment factor at all. I'd rather compare them as players than compare their careers.

 

[Voight]

I don't see any way McDavid supplants Mario.

At this point he only has 1 less Art Ross, 1 less Conn Smythe and just as many Pearsons + Hart Trophies. So there's a high chancer hell have a better trophy cabinet.

 

[notbias]

At this point he only has 1 less Art Ross, 1 less Hart, 1 less Conn Smythe and just as many Pearsons. So there's a high chancer hell have a better trophy cabinet.

And he only needs 741 points in his next 270 games to match his totals...

Lemieux is a special scenario.

 

[PainForShane]

Yeah he did. Anyone who watched the first five years of his career, particularly 2007-2008 through most of 2009-2010 knows he was an entirely different animal. He was never the best player in the world after that and he was still only 24 when it occurred.

And yet he somehow won the Hart when he was 27 and came in 2nd a couple years after that (Carey Price's insane year). You're the guy always bringing up trophies seems a strange coincidence that you happen to 'forget' about them if it's not your guy winning them.

Also haven't addressed the fact that he won 9 Richards. Again, this is your own dumb argument but in the interest of fairness needs to be applied equally across the players, not just the one you're stanning for. More importantly (at least to me), you chose not to address the fact that you actively decided to measure Ovi's impact using Art Rosses which clearly is not relevant to the strengths in his game.

And before all this you went significantly out of your way to call another poster a liar? Please.

 

[Video Nasty]

And yet he somehow won the Hart when he was 27 and came in 2nd a couple years after that (Carey Price's insane year). You're the guy always bringing up trophies seems a strange coincidence that you happen to 'forget' about them if it's not your guy winning them.

Also haven't addressed the fact that he won 9 Richards. Again, this is your own dumb argument but in the interest of fairness needs to be applied equally across the players, not just the one you're stanning for. More importantly (at least to me), you chose not to address the fact that you actively decided to measure Ovi's impact using Art Rosses which clearly is not relevant to the strengths in his game.

And before all this you went significantly out of your way to call another poster a liar? Please.

1. Let me take a page out of your book. You obviously didn’t watch Ovechkin play, otherwise you would know about the stark difference I’m talking about. I’m talking about the wrecking ball, offensive playmaker who was the best in the world until he was neutered by suspensions and the aftermath of the 2010 Olympics. We never saw this version of him again, and again, he was only 24 when he lost his powers.

Best player in the world in 2012-2013 and 2014-2015? Haven’t you and your brood just spent the last 57 pages arguing that those years belonged to Crosby? Talk about a raging hypocrite.

2. Great, he won a bunch of Rockets and he’s on track to set the goals record. They’re huge parts of his legacy. My eyes don’t go dewy eyed for what I still remember as a gimmick trophy and a one dimensional effort for the final 6 of them, especially when I’m arguing along the way about the topic player in question. You can’t pick and choose who you want to be labeled as the best, based on whatever case you think you’re trying to make.

3. Significantly out of my way? I quoted that poster and in their very next post, they pretended they didn’t say it, even though it’s a quote. But by all means, like and agree more with their comments to your heart's content.

 

[Gurglesons]

At this point he only has 1 less Art Ross, 1 less Conn Smythe and just as many Pearsons + Hart Trophies. So there's a high chancer hell have a better trophy cabinet.

So Jagr is better than Crosby?

 

[PainForShane]

1. Let me take a page out of your book. You obviously didn’t watch Ovechkin play, otherwise you would know about the stark difference I’m talking about. I’m talking about the wrecking ball, offensive playmaker who was the best in the world until he was neutered by suspensions and the Olympics.

Best player in the world in 2012-2013 and 2014-2015? Haven’t you and your brood just spent the last 57 pages arguing that those years belonged to Crosby? Talk about a raging hypocrite.

2. Great, he won a bunch of Rockets and he’s on track to set the goals record. They’re huge parts of his legacy. My eyes don’t go dewy eyed for what I still remember as a gimmick trophy and a one dimensional effort for the final 6 of them, especially when I’m arguing along the way about the topic player in question. You can’t pick and choose who you want to be labeled as the best, based on whatever case you think you’re trying to make.

3. Significantly out of my way? I quoted that poster and in their very next post, they pretended they didn’t say it, even though it’s a quote. But by all means, like and agree more with their comments to your heart's content.

No, me and my brood have not just spent the last 57 pages arguing that Crosby was the best player in the world in both 2012-2013 and 2014-2015. In fact unless I am forgetting something (possible), the only person that brought up Sid's 2014-2015 campaign a single time was Nadal on Clay a few posts ago, he mentioned "Sid's play fell off after the his first 9 seasons," 2014-2015 was Sid's 10th season so the Nadal poster was saying that specific season was the first season Sid's play dropped off.

If you're going to call someone a raging hypocrite, it helps to pay attention / understand their argument. That way you wouldn't unironically claim they said the exact opposite of what they actually said. Better luck next time.

***

Anyway speaking of understanding arguments, it seems you view the Rocket as a "gimmick" trophy, much like the Stanley Cup I suppose. That explains some things.

Thanks for clearing up your point of view. That's all I needed to know.

 

[Video Nasty]

No, me and my brood have not just spent the last 57 pages arguing that Crosby was the best player in the world in both 2012-2013 and 2014-2015. In fact unless I am forgetting something (possible), the only person that brought up Sid's 2014-2015 campaign a single time was Nadal on Clay a few posts ago, he mentioned "Sid's play fell off after the his first 9 seasons," 2014-2015 was Sid's 10th season so the Nadal poster was saying that specific season was the first season Sid's play dropped off.

If you're going to call someone a raging hypocrite, it helps to pay attention / understand their argument. That way you wouldn't unironically claim they said the exact opposite of what they actually said. Better luck next time.

***

Anyway speaking of understanding arguments, it seems you view the Rocket as a "gimmick" trophy, much like the Stanley Cup I suppose. That explains some things.

Thanks for clearing up your point of view. That's all I needed to know.

Don’t stay up thinking of ways to get rid of me, it makes wrinkles.

 

[PainForShane]

Don’t stay up thinking of ways to get rid of me, it makes wrinkles.

It was easier than you think

 

[Juxta Position]

And he only needs 741 points in his next 270 games to match his totals...

Lemieux is a special scenario.

 

[norrisnick]

So Jagr is better than Crosby?

Sure, why not?

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

3. Significantly out of my way? I quoted that poster and in their very next post, they pretended they didn’t say it, even though it’s a quote. But by all means, like and agree more with their comments to your heart's content.

Actually I admitted it was a Freudian slip, we were talking about point totals and dominant McDavid was, and you wanted to claim he would be in the Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr tier by the end of his career. Its pretty obvious I meant Art Ross award instead of Hart, but you wanted to harp on the freudian slip instead of addressing the fact that the reason Mario/Gretzky/Orr are in the tier they are in is because they would never finish 3rd for a scoring title in their prime.

Instead of admitting McDavid isn't some dominant force that can't be beat in his prime and has been outscored by MacKinnon(Crosby's protege), Kucherov, and his own teammate in healthy years, we want to bury our heads in the sand to this information and scream about from the rooftops about how dominant McDavid's trophy cabinet is, and because he compiled enough he should make it in on the Howe argument, even though his cabinet isn't nearly as impressive as Howe's.

 

[Oleksiak]

At this point he only has 1 less Art Ross, 1 less Conn Smythe and just as many Pearsons + Hart Trophies. So there's a high chancer hell have a better trophy cabinet.

Needs a Stanley Cup which he isn't winning until he fixes his character issues.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I just don't see a very concrete argument for Crosby at his peak being on the same tier as McDavid. He doesn't have a 2023 (or 2021) level of dominance under his belt

2021 was a shortened season. Not sure why McDavid gets this credit of 'putting it all together' in a shortened season of 56 games in a Canada only conference that had some really weak teams in it, but we can't seem to give Crosby credit for 2013. Not sure if he even looks that dominant under normal circumstances.

2023 was a dominant finish by McDavid. Outside of that, he really doesn't have these Art Ross finishes where he is lapping the competition. Its literally one award sweep. It also coincided with a year that Matthews wasn't scoring at his usual 60+ goal pace due to knee and hand injuries.

2014 Crosby doesn't get enough credit. He finished 20% higher than 2nd in scoring, only 100 point season, almost had an award sweep but he had a healthy OV that year to compete with for goals. He certainly 'put it all together' and showed that his 2011-2013 stretch of 159 points in 99 games for a 1.61ppg pace wasn't just 'projection' and that was with him noticeably avoiding the dirty areas around the net for fear of facing a blindside hit to the head.

 

[Golden_Jet]

He certainly 'put it all together' and showed that his 2011-2013 stretch of 159 points in 99 games for a 1.61ppg pace wasn't just 'projection' and that was with him noticeably avoiding the dirty areas around the net for fear of facing a blindside hit to the head.

lol 33 game average.
He’s played enough seasons now to know he can’t do that when he plays a full season.

 

[bobbyking]

I must have missed where in Gretzky’s prime he lost a scoring title to two other players.

Pretty sure Gretzky lapped the competition.

just like mcdavids numbers lapped crosbys, how comical

 

[Video Nasty]

2021 was a shortened season. Not sure why McDavid gets this credit of 'putting it all together' in a shortened season of 56 games in a Canada only conference that had some really weak teams in it, but we can't seem to give Crosby credit for 2013. Not sure if he even looks that dominant under normal circumstances.

2023 was a dominant finish by McDavid. Outside of that, he really doesn't have these Art Ross finishes where he is lapping the competition. Its literally one award sweep. It also coincided with a year that Matthews wasn't scoring at his usual 60+ goal pace due to knee and hand injuries.
head.

McDavid gets credit for 2020-2021 because he did it again in 2022-2023 over a full, normal season, proving that it was no fluke or something he could only do due to the conditions you mentioned. If he didn’t have that repeat showing, the extremely strong playoff performances, or the blistering run (while playing through injuries) that brought him from 20 points down in the scoring race to be the first to cross 125 points in less than a month, it would be fair to question if 2020-2021 was a fluke that couldn’t be replicated.

What isn’t fair is projecting out at least three similar seasons for someone who didn’t do it once.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

McDavid gets credit for 2020-2021 because he did it again in 2022-2023 over a full, normal season, proving that it was no fluke or something he could only do due to the conditions you mentioned.

He gets credit for doing it once over a full season. Just because he did it once over a full season, doesn’t mean that is his ‘new default level’, as evidenced by him not being able to replicate the production the very next season, or the season before. It’s clearly not a sustainable pace for him, and it’s not consistent enough to say that he can string together multiple seasons at that pace.

If he didn’t have that repeat showing, the extremely strong playoff performances, or the blistering run (while playing through injuries) that brought him from 20 points down in the scoring race to be the first to cross 125 points in less than a month, it would be fair to question if 2020-2021 was a fluke that couldn’t be replicated.

It’s clear that it’s his absolute peak, and that he can do it over a short period of time, but it’s not something he can replicate season over season.

2021-2023 McDavid is almost certainly going to become a mythical new skater that existed in a vacuum, never to be seen before or after again.

What isn’t fair is projecting out at least three similar seasons for someone who didn’t do it once.

He did it before 2011, and he did it following 2013 though. If he didn’t follow up those 3 shortened seasons with one of the most dominant Art Ross finishes this league has ever seen, then sure.

 

[Video Nasty]

He gets credit for doing it once over a full season. Just because he did it once over a full season, doesn’t mean that is his ‘new default level’, as evidenced by him not being able to replicate the production the very next season, or the season before. It’s clearly not a sustainable pace for him, and it’s not consistent enough to say that he can string together multiple seasons at that pace.

It’s clear that it’s his absolute peak, and that he can do it over a short period of time, but it’s not something he can replicate season over season.

2021-2023 McDavid is almost certainly going to become a mythical new skater that existed in a vacuum, never to be seen before or after again.

He did it before 2011, and he did it following 2013 though. If he didn’t follow up those 3 shortened seasons with one of the most dominant Art Ross finishes this league has ever seen, then sure.

Since you enjoy playing in the what if sandbox, what if McDavid has a similar season to 2020-2021 and 2022-2023 in 2024-2025? What would you say then? That it’s not good enough to do consecutively (though he still had 132 points in 76 games with nagging injuries and a 42 point Conn Smythe run), though that would give him three monster seasons in real life, and we should instead fall over ourselves for someone who didn’t do it once?

 

[norrisnick]

I'm struggling with all this "OMG '14 was the most amazingest Art Ross ever" stuff all of a sudden.

Followed just two season later by this:

Am I missing something here?

 

[pi314]

just like mcdavids numbers lapped crosbys, how comical

Funny how shrinking goalie equipment makes the whole league go up in scoring.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I'm struggling with all this "OMG '14 was the most amazingest Art Ross ever" stuff all of a sudden.

View attachment 896770 View attachment 896772

Followed just two season later by this:

View attachment 896771 View attachment 896773

Am I missing something here?

Yeah, I guess you missed how both Kane and Crosby’s 2014 and 2016 seasons are ranked historically as dominant Art Ross wins during a time when league scoring was at a premium.

 

[Midnight Judges]

1. Let me take a page out of your book. You obviously didn’t watch Ovechkin play, otherwise you would know about the stark difference I’m talking about. I’m talking about the wrecking ball, offensive playmaker who was the best in the world until he was neutered by suspensions and the aftermath of the 2010 Olympics. We never saw this version of him again, and again, he was only 24 when he lost his powers.

Best player in the world in 2012-2013 and 2014-2015? Haven’t you and your brood just spent the last 57 pages arguing that those years belonged to Crosby? Talk about a raging hypocrite.

2. Great, he won a bunch of Rockets and he’s on track to set the goals record. They’re huge parts of his legacy. My eyes don’t go dewy eyed for what I still remember as a gimmick trophy and a one dimensional effort for the final 6 of them, especially when I’m arguing along the way about the topic player in question. You can’t pick and choose who you want to be labeled as the best, based on whatever case you think you’re trying to make.

3. Significantly out of my way? I quoted that poster and in their very next post, they pretended they didn’t say it, even though it’s a quote. But by all means, like and agree more with their comments to your heart's content.

You are overstating it.

Even after Ovechkin's peak was over, he was still among the very best players in the world - winning the Hart in 2013 and being the best skater in 2015. He also had a case for best player in 2018.

It's also demonstrably false to call Ovechkin "one dimensional." One dimensional players do not lead the NHL in goals while also pacing for well over 200 hits per season. Nor are they top 3 in points for the decade in question.

Had Ovechkin been born in Canada, that particular lie would never have taken hold. In fact it could never take hold with any honest and knowledgeable hockey fan - not one who is actually thinking for themselves anyway.

Yet the Canadian hockey fans in particular persist with this easily debunked gibberish, not just on hfboards either. It's a nationalism thing (in other words, without merit).

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Since you enjoy playing in the what if sandbox, what if McDavid has a similar season to 2020-2021 and 2022-2023 in 2024-2025? What would you say then?

Then I would give him his props. He would actually start bridging what is a pretty real gap between the likes of himself and Howe.

That it’s not good enough to do consecutively (though he still had 132 points in 76 games with nagging injuries and a 42 point Conn Smythe run), though that would give him three monster seasons in real life, and we should instead fall over ourselves for someone who didn’t do it once?

McDavid didn't lead the league last year in points per game. If he played the missing games, he still loses out on an Art Ross in his prime, healthy years. Last year he didn't dominate. There is no world where you can twist last year's performance and make it appear like a dominant finish by someone who is in Howe/Gretzky/Mario/Orr territory. They simply wouldn't lose out in their prime.

Crosby did it in 2014. He did it once. 20% over the 2nd place guy. Looked like a pretty dominant Art Ross win where he coasted to the finish and still lapped the competition.