Your Mt.Rushmore of OVERRATED and Mt.Rushmore of UNDERRATED ... all time

The Panther

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Mar 25, 2014
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Overrated:

Mark Recchi - played with Mario and made stats to get him into the HOF and then played for Montreal and he couldn’t get the puck into the zone
That seems a bit inaccurate, surely...?

During Recchi's first four seasons (discounting his incomplete fifth) with Montreal:

Montreal scoring:
1. Recchi - 275
2. Damphousse - 266
3. Rucinsky - 158

NHL point scoring:

16th - Lemieux
17th - Palffy
18th -- Recchi (275 points in 285 games)
19th - Bondra
20th - Yzerman

NHL Even Strength Points
12th -- Recchi

NHL right wingers' scoring:
1. Jagr
2. Selanne
3. Fleury
4. Palffy
5. Recchi

In the playoffs, Recchi put up 24 points in 21 games and went +5, so although I can't remember these series, it would appear he was not exactly the reason they didn't advance. He, again, was 1st in scoring those three playoff seasons, outdistancing second-place Damphousse by 41% of his total.

I recall watching a CBC game where Dick Irvin was commentating, and Dick -- who'd been watching the Habs since 1944 or something -- stated that it was such a pleasure to watch Recchi play there because he was so hard-working and consistent and dogged.
 

Tuna99

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Sep 26, 2009
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That seems a bit inaccurate, surely...?

During Recchi's first four seasons (discounting his incomplete fifth) with Montreal:

Montreal scoring:
1. Recchi - 275
2. Damphousse - 266
3. Rucinsky - 158

NHL point scoring:

16th - Lemieux
17th - Palffy
18th -- Recchi (275 points in 285 games)
19th - Bondra
20th - Yzerman

NHL Even Strength Points
12th -- Recchi

NHL right wingers' scoring:
1. Jagr
2. Selanne
3. Fleury
4. Palffy
5. Recchi

In the playoffs, Recchi put up 24 points in 21 games and went +5, so although I can't remember these series, it would appear he was not exactly the reason they didn't advance. He, again, was 1st in scoring those three playoff seasons, outdistancing second-place Damphousse by 41% of his total.

I recall watching a CBC game where Dick Irvin was commentating, and Dick -- who'd been watching the Habs since 1944 or something -- stated that it was such a pleasure to watch Recchi play there because he was so hard-working and consistent and dogged.

Kinda proves my point to - Recchi should be in the cnversation as Ziggy Pallfy and Peter Bondra and not HOF.

He worked hard but Mario made his career - he’s the Julien Edelman of the NHL
 

Albatros

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Getting 50/50 when his knees/legs were shot is pretty remarkable.
A tad less remarkable when it enabled Neely to play a customized schedule. His knee issues ensured that he would have struggled over 84 games, but given that he only played in 49 hand-picked games it meant that he was well-rested throughout the season, unlike his opponents.
 

Overrated

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Jan 16, 2018
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Jagr on HFboards - Overrated. For years, I thought Jagr was underrated/underappreciated, but now I think he actually benefitted playing in the DPE because of his build/style. I think the assumption is that if he had played in the '80s, his floor would be putting up Marcel Dionne type of numbers, and toggling between that and peak Esposito numbers, but I'm not so sure about that.
Sounds almost criminal to compare him to Marcel Dionne who only stands out due to the lack of great forwards in the NHL throughout the 70s early 80s. Once Gretzky arrived he was outscored by a hundred points.

Bobby Hull - Underrated, now and IMO, especially on HFboards. Leaving everything else aside, just isolating hockey, he was one of the greatest. He had all of the gifts.
This forum ranked him #5 all time right after what they call the big four.
 

TooFlashy

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May 28, 2016
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Im genuinely curious, why are so many ITT chiseling out Datsyukian features on mount overrated?

He was extremely highly regarded in his late career about 10 years ago by all 3 of fans/players/media, and he has to be one of the most complete players in the category of flashy big name forwards alongside Clarke and Gainey.

What about him is overrated exactly?
just angry zetterberg fans.ignore them
 

Felidae

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Sep 30, 2016
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Kinda proves my point to - Recchi should be in the cnversation as Ziggy Pallfy and Peter Bondra and not HOF.

He worked hard but Mario made his career - he’s the Julien Edelman of the NHL
Kinda odd to say Mario made his career, when 3 of his 4 best, highest scoring seasons happened outside Pittsburgh..

1992-93, Recchi led the flyers with 123 points, a 37 point gap over the next highest scoring teammate, Rod brind amour.

1999-00, Recchi again led the flyers with 91 points, 14 more than Leclair. Good for 3rd most points in the league.

I get Recchi wasn't flashy, but he was clearly fully capable of leading a team offensively at his best
 

BigBadBruins7708

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Dec 11, 2017
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Kinda odd to say Mario made his career, when 3 of his 4 best, highest scoring seasons happened outside Pittsburgh..

1992-93, Recchi led the flyers with 123 points, a 37 point gap over the next highest scoring teammate, Rod brind amour.

1999-00, Recchi again led the flyers with 91 points, 14 more than Leclair. Good for 3rd most points in the league.

I get Recchi wasn't flashy, but he was clearly fully capable of leading a team offensively at his best

He was also a winner and a leader. Won a Cup in Pittsburgh early on with 34 pts in 24 games, then won Cups in Carolina and Boston as the veteran leader on the team
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Dec 29, 2007
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A tad less remarkable when it enabled Neely to play a customized schedule. His knee issues ensured that he would have struggled over 84 games, but given that he only played in 49 hand-picked games it meant that he was well-rested throughout the season, unlike his opponents.

It wasn't a customized schedule. It wasn't hand-picked games. Rather, games when he was able to skate.

Neely scored his 50th goal in the teams 66th game.

He missed the end of the season and the playoffs.
 
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Dale53130

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Nov 10, 2019
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This forum ranked him #5 all time right after what they call the big four.

I wasn't aware that he ranked that high on the forum's list, and I probably should take a look at that.

My perception is based off of posts/threads written about Bobby Hull around the time that he had passed away, and some more recently talking about how the Hawks should have been more successful in the 1960s.

I had him at #5 for ages. I was under the impression (incorrectly I guess) that he's quickly losing ground. For reference, I would have him ahead of the Jagr/Messier/Bourque grouping (if that is one).
 
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DitchMarner

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Jul 21, 2017
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I don't have four names right now but I think that Patrick Kane is overrated and Mike Liut and Mark Howe are underrated. Toronto players from the 1960s, except for Mahovlich and for Keon within the Toronto bubble, are underrated. I strongly suspect that Dickie Moore is underrated.

I'm not a Blackhawks fan and I hardly watched or followed Kane closely at all during his last several seasons in CHI because the team was basically irrelevant and not particularly interesting, but to me it "feels" as though how good his career looks on paper isn't indicative of how good he was as a player.

If you look at his number of top ten scoring finishes, individual hardware, team trophies (Stanley Cups), he has an all-time great career. He also has a reputation for being a clutch playoff player (which I think is warranted from having witnessed some of his big moments in the playoffs), but of course some take that and turn it into, "he was a playoff warrior! You take this guy if you wanna win!!!".

The question I have about him is whether he had the ability to carry a team to an extent that is commensurate with his reputation and overall general ranking. When the Blackhawks were good, he had a lot of support and other players did the dirty work. When they declined and he became their best player, they obviously didn't go anywhere. I'm not saying that's all on him, but that brings me back to the question I posed at the beginning of this paragraph. People think it's a farce and a joke that Toews was named a Top 100 player in NHL history because they think he couldn't have accomplished the things that make his career great on his own. But is Kane really a guy who would definitely be considered a Top 100 player of all-time if he had ended up in a different situation?

He has the game-breaking skills that Toews lacked (or had to a lesser extent). But he's quite one-dimensional. Not only is he bad defensively, I don't think he really "tilts the ice" that much for such a highly-regarded player. I guess he and Toews really complemented each other well and needed each other.
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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I'm not a Blackhawks fan and I hardly watched or followed Kane closely at all during his last several seasons in CHI because the team was basically irrelevant and not particularly interesting, but to me it "feels" as though how good his career looks on paper isn't indicative of how good he was as a player.

If you look at his number of top ten scoring finishes, individual hardware, team trophies (Stanley Cups), he has an all-time great career. He also has a reputation for being a clutch playoff player (which I think is warranted from having witnessed some of his big moments in the playoffs), but of course some take that and turn it into, "he was a playoff warrior! You take this guy if you wanna win!!!".

The question I have about him is whether he had the ability to carry a team to an extent that is commensurate with his reputation and overall general ranking. When the Blackhawks were good, he had a lot of support and other players did the dirty work. When they declined and he became their best player, they obviously didn't go anywhere. I'm not saying that's all on him, but that brings me back to the question I posed at the beginning of this paragraph. People think it's a farce and a joke that Toews was named a Top 100 player in NHL history because they think he couldn't have accomplished the things that make his career great on his own. But is Kane really a guy who would definitely be considered a Top 100 player of all-time if he had ended up in a different situation?

He has the game-breaking skills that Toews lacked (or had to a lesser extent). But he's quite one-dimensional. Not only is he bad defensively, I don't think he really "tilts the ice" that much for such a highly-regarded player. I guess he and Toews really complemented each other well and needed each other.
That's mostly what I'm getting at. I don't think that a team with Kane leading the way, on and off the ice, gets anywhere. To me he is the clear number three among the key Blackhawks of their Stanley Cup years. You'd have people suggesting that he is the best playoff performer of his generation, or arguing him vs Jagr, or suggesting that he was the clearcut most important out of Toews/Kane/Keith.

Great scorer, but I'm not all that impressed if we're talking top 100 players ever or better.
 

wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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Here's an inflammatory one:

Mt. Rushmore overrated (for HF) are Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Orr

This board uses the parlance "big four" like it's inconceivable that anyone could be better (I'm not even talking about like McDavid or upcoming players being better), which in itself, sure I can get around.

The thing is, the legend of these players certainly seems to have grown since they played. Certainly seems to be the case for Gretzky and Lemieux, and also I'm familiar enough with the Original Six Wings to know what Howe was thought of then vs now (not as familiar/interested regarding Orr though when I looked up some stuff on Espo from back then and yeah same inflation seems to be happening for Orr).

You'd think with the way people talk about these guys here, they'd be winning the cup singlehandedly every year... just not the case lol
I'll add Morenz, Frank Nighbor, Shore, Dickie Moore and Firsov to the HOH boards all time over rated list for similar but slightly different reasons.

Morenz like Hobey Baker gets the sympathy vote, for lack of a better phrase and his resume doesn't really stand up to his all time placing.

Shore's legacy also seems more than his actual impact.

Dickie Moore has too short of a peak and lack of Hart consideration from his time to be ranked as high as he does.

Firsov has a real lack of competition and late start and early exit of greatness and is considered too high as well IMO.

Nighbor no doubt was a great player but how to compare defensive forwards when there was no forward passing to the modern post forward passing game is tricky IMO.


I also add one of my favorite players growing up and I love players that battle but Bobby Clarke is ranked too high as well IMO and his resume really gets the Harts bump and doesn't stand up as great as one would think to his placement.
 

wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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I think Hawerchuk is generally considered comparable to guys like Savard and Stastny. I think that's fair. I don't think he was as good as Dionne, let alone 66 or 99.

In my honest opinion, Gilbert Perreault is overrated. I think he belongs in that Stastny/Hawerchuk tier I referenced. But people seem to see him as more of a Dionne or Yzerman level player. The stats don't justify that at all. Don't get me wrong: I like Perreault. I'm generally a fan of players who have puck skills and an artistic element to their games. Although I consider him a great player, I feel he's considered a tier better than he was.


I have The Hockey News' Top 100 Players of All Time publication. I received it as a present decades ago. It's actually sitting on my computer desk right now. I still browse it on occasion. It came out in '98 or so and has Perreault in the top 50 (!).
Lots of 70s guys tend to be over rated and not just the NHL ones and I think some 90s players are under rated when the league became fully integrated.

To be fair though it's hard to weigh these things and people and the hockey culture in general seem to have certain biases that most follow but in general hockey like most sports probably over rates some players who were winners and then under rates players who had less team success which is amplified in a 6 team to 32 team NHL.
 
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wetcoast

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Kurri is a terrible mention here.

The guy scored 71 goals (in 73 games) and almost won the Selke in the same season.

He was a playoff stud.

When he left Edmonton, he was the #1 playoff goal scorer in NHL history.

He was an amazingly good penalty killer.

He was a great passer / playmaker.

He was a 2nd-team All Star without Gretzky (should have been 1st, in my opinion), and a year later was a top contributor to yet another Stanley Cup.

When Gretzky was injured and out in autumn 1992, Kurri stepped in to play center (having never done so before) and scored 46 points in 22 games.

If anything, he's hugely underrated.
Still I think that you are unknowingly making the case for him being over rated unless you believe that his resume would look even remotely the same with say 5 other random NHL clubs in the same era.

Greatness should transcend team circumstance at some level.

I'll give the obvious example of Orr would have been great no matter where he played and it's not as close for certain for Esposito had he not been traded to the Bruins and played with Orr.
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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I'll add Morenz, Frank Nighbor, Shore, Dickie Moore and Firsov to the HOH boards all time over rated list for similar but slightly different reasons.

Morenz like Hobey Baker gets the sympathy vote, for lack of a better phrase and his resume doesn't really stand up to his all time placing.

Shore's legacy also seems more than his actual impact.

Dickie Moore has too short of a peak and lack of Hart consideration from his time to be ranked as high as he does.

Firsov has a real lack of competition and late start and early exit of greatness and is considered too high as well IMO.

Nighbor no doubt was a great player but how to compare defensive forwards when there was no forward passing to the modern post forward passing game is tricky IMO.


I also add one of my favorite players growing up and I love players that battle but Bobby Clarke is ranked too high as well IMO and his resume really gets the Harts bump and doesn't stand up as great as one would think to his placement.
How does Shore's legacy seem greater than his impact?
 
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Ishdul

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Kinda proves my point to - Recchi should be in the cnversation as Ziggy Pallfy and Peter Bondra and not HOF.

He worked hard but Mario made his career - he’s the Julien Edelman of the NHL
If Palffy had anywhere near the health/durability of Recchi he'd rightfully be in the Hall of Fame. He finished with almost 1000 less games than Recchi.

And as others have pointed out the connection you've made between Mario's career and Recchi's is delusional. In Recchi's first 2 years he barely plays with Lemieux. Recchi's big year in Pittsburgh was one where Lemieux played 26 games. The next year he was traded part way through the season. He went on to put up great numbers in Philly, good numbers in Montreal and then went back to Philly to put up great numbers again before becoming an old man who was still able to contribute. Lemieux was involved in less than 50 of Recchi's regular season points, and that's including 7 from the 05-06 season. It's negligible.
 

sensfan4lifee

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Sounds almost criminal to compare him to Marcel Dionne who only stands out due to the lack of great forwards in the NHL throughout the 70s early 80s. Once Gretzky arrived he was outscored by a hundred points.


This forum ranked him #5 all time right after what they call the big four.
Marcel Dionne was a hell of a hockey player and if he had of been on the Habs he could be would be up there with Lafleaur, Richard, Roy as a Habs great. Instead he languished on a poor kings team
 

wetcoast

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How does Shore's legacy seem greater than his impact?
He played on a team with many HHOFers and the usual winners get all the glory and if they don't win they move down the all time list doesn't seem to apply to him.

Sure he won 2 Sc's but he constantly was on a team with 6-8 HHOFers and the 30s in general isn't a particularly golden age of hockey IMO.

His legacy is about the 4 Hart trophies and trophy counting plus he was a mans mans when hockey was tough.
 

wetcoast

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General question - overrated and underrated by whom?

My first impression is players like Scott Niedermayer and Ron Francis are overrated, and Patrik Elias is underrated. That's probably true for the hockey media as a whole, but it's certainly not the case on HOH. Which "audience" are we looking at here?
I'm using the lists and ranking generally used in this section for my views.
 

Overrated

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Marcel Dionne was a hell of a hockey player and if he had of been on the Habs he could be would be up there with Lafleaur, Richard, Roy as a Habs great. Instead he languished on a poor kings team
You don't really know that. Sometimes it's better for your individual performance to be on a decent albeit lesser team where the whole game is centered around you than to be playing in system on a super team like Montreal. Balderis was the number one scorer in the Soviet league with Riga but his scoring dipped once he went to CSKA and once he left he again became the Soviet scoring champion.
 

wetcoast

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Glen Sather - Overrated as a GM, living off of what he had accomplished in his first few years with the Oilers. Now, he absolutely nailed the '79, '80, '81 drafts, and did a pretty good job even in '83, but after that point, I think he sort of sucked at drafting. I also never really thought that he won that many of his trades going forward either. When we're talking about the early-/mid-'90s and beyond, that's specifically when I thought that he was overrated. His reputation was bloated. He had a plum job with the Rangers too, and never did much there (IMO), with consideration to all of the (perceived) spending that was allowed relative to what he couldn't do in Edmonton.

Cam Neely - Underrated these days. I thought he was the most overrated player in the late '80s/early '90s, but after hearing him getting dumped on so readily/frequently over the past 30 years, I think much more of him now. He was quite the force, even against a loaded Penguins squad. Outside of Bourque and Neely, some of those Boston teams had a lot of grit, but were short on talent beyond those two. Getting 50/50 when his knees/legs were shot is pretty remarkable.

I used to be less-than-impressed with his point totals, that they didn't match his reputation, which is/was true for that era, but I did think that he was the premiere power forward (in the league) on a then relevant Bruins team.

DPE players on HFboards - Overrated. If you played in that era, you instantly get vaulted ahead of any other era; it certainly feels like it. It's like a badge of honor. If you played in the '80s (and seems like the '70s are also in that category now), you weren't really that good, and you were just stat padding. It's a stain on your career. I think Mike Bossy gets underrated to a large degree because of this, but who else was averaging 60 goals per season over a 9-run year, on a team that won 4 cups in a row?

We talk about how overrated the Big Four are in this very thread, but I've read FAR MORE about Sakic/Forsberg/Jagr/Yzerman/Lidstrom/etc than I have of Bobby Orr in these parts over the years.

Jagr on HFboards - Overrated. For years, I thought Jagr was underrated/underappreciated, but now I think he actually benefitted playing in the DPE because of his build/style. I think the assumption is that if he had played in the '80s, his floor would be putting up Marcel Dionne type of numbers, and toggling between that and peak Esposito numbers, but I'm not so sure about that.

If he had a target on his back, on par with Lindros, he's not reaching 1,700 GP. I also don't think most of his teams - once he was at/near his prime/peak - were all that good. Conversely, if Lindros played on another team not named the Flyers, and had a coach/GM that did more to protect him, and let him focus on developing his offensive skillset (which he never did unlike other greats), I think 95/100 times he's a part of The Big 5.

Like almost everyone, I never rooted for Lindros. However, if I could chose a do-over for "1" player, in any of the major sports, I'd chose Lindros. I don't think we saw anything close to what his peak should have been like. I feel cheated.

Joe Juneau's Jock Strap - Overrated. Or maybe it's underrated? I don't know, I have to see it. All I know is that Teemu Selanne wasn't strong enough to carry it. It's like lifting Thor's hammer apparently.

Gretzky's 1990-91 season - Underrated. It's assumed that his peak was (probably) between 1981-1987 or so (prime maybe 1980-81 to 1990-91). But when you consider who he was playing with, the lack of depth and quality players with the Kings, still a semi-new environment with teammates that he didn't come into the league with, it's far more impressive now, looking back. I personally believe, that Gretzky was on a level where he was maybe bored, toying with the game (like Larry Bird when he was at his peak winning 3 consecutive MVP's), and by '87, he was no longer chasing 200 point seasons. Maybe that was no longer necessary in his mind. He'd focus less on goals, and more on how to get the most out of his linemates (Bird shooting with his left hand!). It's probably more enjoyable for him by that point, nothing left to prove, that he was more excited about his teammates individual success, and their collective success as a team.

I also wonder if part of the reason that he went to the Kings, was that he wanted a different challenge.

His 1990-91 season also overlaps with a high influx of European/Eastern Bloc players coming into the league, the game was much faster, probably more skilled than ever before, not to mention that those imports came over with more pro-experience than what we're accustomed to today.

I actually wonder if this was Gretzky greatest season, and maybe he was still at his peak in '91. He was still only 30 at the time. We just don't think this because of 1989-90, and his significant drop off by the 1991-92 season going forward, and maybe his peak coincided the same year he exited his prime. It's also close to impossible thinking that a guy who put up 163 points is as good or better than a younger version who put up 215 points years earlier, but I have a hard time believing that Grezky's brain was dropping off at 30 years of age. Seeing how he's a wizard who processed the game on a different level, while still being close to as good as he was in his Edmonton days, why are we to assume that he's not actually peaking in '91.

It will get swept under the rug because of (probable) PED usage, but Bonds (and Hank Aaron) claimed that he was seeing things on a completely different level at an advanced age; roughly around 40 years old when he set the single season OPS record. Gretzky saw things out there that others couldn't see, so why would his brain peak in his mid-20s? Wouldn't he be that more knowledgeable, to offset whatever athletic decline that would have been happening by then? It's not like his game was ever predicated on explosive speed and such.

Phil Housley on HFboards - Underrated. Yes, he was "not good" in his own end. Understood. But outside of Orr at the top, and then the next level which is just Coffey, I don't think Phil Housley really took a back seat to anyone offensively from that era. If he was so bad, he wouldn't have had a 21-year career! Also, let's consider that he also played in the DPE era, so his career point averages are going to take a hit as well.

As an aside, isn't it weird that Orr is the only one on that level offensively, and Coffey himself is on an island of his own, between Orr and the rest? Is there an equivalent, as a forward, who's not good enough to be with Gretzky/Lemieux (depending on how you feel about Lemieux), but who's also generally viewed as being on his own level, separating him from everyone else? Is the answer Jagr? Or is it McDavid? Or Jagr and McDavid? Bobby Hull?

Bobby Hull - Underrated, now and IMO, especially on HFboards. Leaving everything else aside, just isolating hockey, he was one of the greatest. He had all of the gifts.

The Eye Test - Underrated. Who said that everyone is processing and understanding the game on an equal level? We're not.
Interesting post to be sure but Housley played all of his peak and 80% of his prime outside of the wrongly named dead puck era.
 
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JackSlater

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He played on a team with many HHOFers and the usual winners get all the glory and if they don't win they move down the all time list doesn't seem to apply to him.

Sure he won 2 Sc's but he constantly was on a team with 6-8 HHOFers and the 30s in general isn't a particularly golden age of hockey IMO.

His legacy is about the 4 Hart trophies and trophy counting plus he was a mans mans when hockey was tough.
I don't see how this explains that his legacy is greater than his impact. Considering that Shore is essentially a 7+ time Norris winner and has 4 Harts I'd say that his team's failures, plus the passage of time, keep him from being right there among the top five defencemen ever. That's just looking at lazy resume bullet points. Which isn't even to say that his team not winning more than 2 Stanley Cups, as many as Orr won and more than Bourque did, is on him.
 

Staniowski

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Jan 13, 2018
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Sounds almost criminal to compare him to Marcel Dionne who only stands out due to the lack of great forwards in the NHL throughout the 70s early 80s. Once Gretzky arrived he was outscored by a hundred points.
Yes, there wasn't great depth at forward until the 1980s, not just in the 1970s, but the entire history of hockey. It varied, and it changed over time, but there had never been great depth.

Jagr was certainly a lot better than Dionne, closer to Gretzky than Dionne.
 

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