Value of: Young Anaheim D (Theodore, Manson, Montour, Larsson)

[TOGuy14]

For Theodore I think Anaheim would want Nylander and/or JVR.

I am guessing you spelled Lindholm really poorly when you wrote Theordore there

 

[eternalbedhead]

Sure. But the problem is how you categorize Toronto's prospects outside of the big 3 as marginal. Which they are not. Toronto's prospect pool in top 3 in the NHL, yet you guys can't seem to find a single decent one in there.

We find decent ones; we find great ones. Your top 3 attracts a lot of interest around the league.


The point is, we're not stooping down to Kapanen to trade a prized prospect such as Theo. In other words, we're not venturing outside that top 3 if one of our really good defensive prospects is going out the door.

 

[Magic Man]

We find decent ones; we find great ones. Your top 3 attracts a lot of interest around the league.


The point is, we're not stooping down to Kapanen to trade a prized prospect such as Theo. In other words, we're not venturing outside that top 3 if one of our really good defensive prospects is going out the door.

So, basically the Ducks aren't interested in trading a strength to address a weakness unless they also completely rip off the other team.

The Leafs pool is strong not only because of the top-3, but because they're deep with legit prospects deep into the pool.

The D prospects that are being propped up in this thread outside of Theodore are very much comparable to prospects on Kapanen and Brown's level. Not the big 3's.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

So, basically the Ducks aren't interested in trading a strength to address a weakness unless they also completely rip off the other team.

The Leafs pool is strong not only because of the top-3, but because they're deep with legit prospects deep into the pool.

The D prospects that are being propped up in this thread outside of Theodore are very much comparable to prospects on Kapanen and Brown's level. Not the big 3's.

Cept I trust our teams scouting on dmen... we do well... Montour/Larsson have a lot of potential that isn't justified in their currant values. no need to move them at this point in time, unless were getting the better end of the deal.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

yeah DeAngelo got moved for a 2nd rd pick after a 43pt in 69 game
20 year old rookie season. I dont think carrick or montour are as bad as him in their own end though.

I still wouldnt move Kapanen for Montour though. He is vastly underrated because of our big 3. but 40 pts in 69 games in the AHL
as a junior aged player is nothing to sneeze at. He will still be one of the youngest players in the league THIS year.

meh Montour put 57 in 68 as a rookie(granted he is 2 years older) still very impressive #'s, he has been an offensive juggernaut in every league he has gone too. Not to mention theodores 37 in 50 is more impressive then kapanens #'s. Dmen are a more looked for position in the league, and usually valued a bit higher... ill hold on to both of them and if someone wants to over pay for it awesome, if not ... eventually guys like vatanen/fowler can be dangled and those guys can replace em.

 

[Magic Man]

Cept I trust our teams scouting on dmen... we do well... Montour/Larsson have a lot of potential that isn't justified in their currant values. no need to move them at this point in time, unless were getting the better end of the deal.

Since Shanny has cleaned house, I trust the Leafs scouting at every position. I don't want to trade the likes of Brown/Kapanen for the Ducks comparables either, I'm simply acknowledging that they're comparable and if Anaheim was serious about making a move of a D for F prospect, those would be more realistic options.

Asking for Nylander/Marner for Montour/Larsson is similar to the Leafs asking for Ritchie/Theodore for Carrick/Dermott, but worse. It's not even a little close.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Since Shanny has cleaned house, I trust the Leafs scouting at every position. I don't want to trade the likes of Brown/Kapanen for the Ducks comparables either, I'm simply acknowledging that they're comparable and if Anaheim was serious about making a move of a D for F prospect, those would be more realistic options.

Asking for Nylander/Marner for Montour/Larsson is similar to the Leafs asking for Ritchie/Theodore for Carrick/Dermott, but worse. It's not even a little close.

Once again its a thread by a leafs fan asking what it would cost... realistically it would likely cost an over payment.

Value wise you may be right but we have no need to trade em, I still think fowler/despres are the more likely dmen that would move.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

pass. Montour was still in the USHL when he was kapanens age.
next year and the year after Kasperi will be the same age as most AHL rookies, best to see what he does then. we have a montour in connor carrick already (21 pts in 20 AHL games)

Montour was a lacrossse player who is a late bloomer, check the numbers, every single league he has gone to within a short period of time he has crushed. within a year and a half he went from USHL to NCAA to AHL, not sure the age argument is a good one in this case, since Montour didn't commit to hockey as early as most other prospects do

 

[Blitzago*]

I am guessing you spelled Lindholm really poorly when you wrote Theordore there

I think he accidentally wrote in Nylander when he meant to write Matthews aswell.

 

[Halla]

Montour was a lacrossse player who is a late bloomer, check the numbers, every single league he has gone to within a short period of time he has crushed. within a year and a half he went from USHL to NCAA to AHL, not sure the age argument is a good one in this case, since Montour didn't commit to hockey as early as most other prospects do

yeah Kapanen is still 2+ years younger though and has played well despite the massive expectations heaved upon him by leaf nation.
one of the best marlies in the playoff for sure, speaking of which Connor Carrick fills the same role that Montour would.

Kapanen needs another year or 2 to show what he is.

 

[Halla]

meh Montour put 57 in 68 as a rookie(granted he is 2 years older) still very impressive #'s, he has been an offensive juggernaut in every league he has gone too. Not to mention theodores 37 in 50 is more impressive then kapanens #'s. Dmen are a more looked for position in the league, and usually valued a bit higher... ill hold on to both of them and if someone wants to over pay for it awesome, if not ... eventually guys like vatanen/fowler can be dangled and those guys can replace em.

everyone you are comparing is older. Montour has 2 years on Kapanen, Theodore has 1. maybe we should see how Kapanen does the next two seasons to make it fair?

good luck waiting for someone to "overpay". In the case that prospects do get moved, its usually for a similar prospect of another position or a late 1st/early 2nd (See DeAngelo, who outscored Theodore as a rookie)

 

[lindholmie]

everyone you are comparing is older. Montour has 2 years on Kapanen, Theodore has 1. maybe we should see how Kapanen does the next two seasons to make it fair?

good luck waiting for someone to "overpay". In the case that prospects do get moved, its usually for a similar prospect of another position or a late 1st/early 2nd (See DeAngelo, who outscored Theodore as a rookie)

Deangelo had 6 more point in 19 more games. theodore was a rookie too plus deangelo was always in trouble

 

[Ducks in a row]

So, basically the Ducks aren't interested in trading a strength to address a weakness unless they also completely rip off the other team.

The Leafs pool is strong not only because of the top-3, but because they're deep with legit prospects deep into the pool.

The D prospects that are being propped up in this thread outside of Theodore are very much comparable to prospects on Kapanen and Brown's level. Not the big 3's.

Ducks are not interested in trading away a strength unless they get back something good something that will help us win now.

Kapanen is a solid forward prospect but in 9 NHL games he didn't get a point and his AHL production wasn't lights out. Brown is a 22 year old forward with only 7 NHL games played now he did have 6 points in those games but need to see more of him. I wouldn't trade Theodore for either of them. Larsson is a 1st round pick defenseman as well who has been developing well. Montour is a high scoring defenseman who just keeps playing better as he plays in higher leagues. With how well we have been doing with drafting and developing defenseman and how valuable good defenseman are and how important it is for us to make sure we get it right so we can have a good team it is hard to be willing to trade such defenseman. Also on these board fans of all teams usually want to be a clear winner of a trade rarely do you see a proposed trade that fans of two teams would easily agree to do.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

good luck waiting for someone to "overpay". In the case that prospects do get moved, its usually for a similar prospect of another position or a late 1st/early 2nd (See DeAngelo, who outscored Theodore as a rookie)

Oh no the ducks will have the misfortune of keeping Montour, unless they come to their senses and trade him for spare parts

 

[CanadienShark]

I'm another guy that thinks Kapanen for Montour is a good deal.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Would LOVE to have Montour on the Oilers. But ANA would likely ask for Drai or Pulju, and that's just not going to happen. We really don't have any prospects that are at a level just a bit below. We just have a few really high end prospects, and the rest are like B grade, or B+ at most. Very hard to find a match between the two teams' needs in a trade like this, and don't think there is one to be found... at this point, anyway.

 

[anezthes]

I'm another guy that thinks Kapanen for Montour is a good deal.

I wouldn't make that deal from ANA's point of view. Kapanen's hockey IQ leaves a lot to be desired.

Would LOVE to have Montour on the Oilers. But ANA would likely ask for Drai or Pulju, and that's just not going to happen. We really don't have any prospects that are at a level just a bit below. We just have a few really high end prospects, and the rest are like B grade, or B+ at most. Very hard to find a match between the two teams' needs in a trade like this, and don't think there is one to be found... at this point, anyway.

"We" wouldn't ask for Drai or Pulju, but the rest are underwhelming.

 

[Neiler]

Leaf fans should have no issue putting Nylander or Marner on the table for Shea Theodore. He's one of the best D prospects in the world not in the NHL full time.

From Ottawa the only players I'd insist on not giving up in a Theo deal would be Karlsson, Stone and Ceci. Literally anyone else would be up for discussion... though finding a fit would be near impossible between two budget teams.

 

[Quackery]

everyone you are comparing is older. Montour has 2 years on Kapanen, Theodore has 1. maybe we should see how Kapanen does the next two seasons to make it fair?

good luck waiting for someone to "overpay". In the case that prospects do get moved, its usually for a similar prospect of another position or a late 1st/early 2nd (See DeAngelo, who outscored Theodore as a rookie)

Lemme tell you a story of Tampa bay lightning and a certain D prospect. We'll start at the ancient magical land called Thunder bay. This land was barren and devoid of up and coming talent. However a kind and intelligent king called Jeff was elected to lead the land out of mediocrity. It wasn't long before the aforementioned king started to shape and implement upgrades to this ancient land. But alas he needed help. And so he hired 7 knights of the round table, of which Sir Steve was given reigns to lead them. Now Sir Steve was a harsh and no bulls**t kind of knight, but he was just and worked for the greater good of the land.

So Sir Steve started to gather young talented knights who would help his army defeat rivals in a war for the sacred chalice called Saint Stanleius. However in all his tenure he was unable to find a knight who would complement his best soldier on the battlefield of man-advantage. The knight would have to be right handed and proficient in the ways of offense.

And so he took a gamble. He brought in a young lad named Anthony. Now this young man came in with a ton of personal issues. Issues Sir Steve was hoping could be corrected once the young man was given chance in the pro army. But alas, sir Anthony would have none of it. He argued his superiors, drank even though such things are beneath knighthood, and pulled fair maidens hair when they weren't looking.

However Sir Steve was having none of that. After suspending him from his training army two times already, he finally gave up and sent the young troublemaker to a faraway land called Arizona, where he would join a pack of wild coyotes.

TL;DR Deangelo has a s**t tone of personal issues and is absolutely lost in his own zone. In fact he was already suspended twice (or was it three times?) in Syracuse. Issues Montour doesn't have, which is why Montours value isn't the same as Deangelos.

 

[Magic Man]

Ducks are not interested in trading away a strength unless they get back something good something that will help us win now.

Kapanen is a solid forward prospect but in 9 NHL games he didn't get a point and his AHL production wasn't lights out. Brown is a 22 year old forward with only 7 NHL games played now he did have 6 points in those games but need to see more of him. I wouldn't trade Theodore for either of them. Larsson is a 1st round pick defenseman as well who has been developing well. Montour is a high scoring defenseman who just keeps playing better as he plays in higher leagues. With how well we have been doing with drafting and developing defenseman and how valuable good defenseman are and how important it is for us to make sure we get it right so we can have a good team it is hard to be willing to trade such defenseman. Also on these board fans of all teams usually want to be a clear winner of a trade rarely do you see a proposed trade that fans of two teams would easily agree to do.

Kapanen has produced like a top-6 forward in the AHL, FEL and WJC as an 18/19 year old. That's actually quite impressive. He was thought of in the same class as Nylander at draft time but fell a little bit. He was moved as the main piece for star forward Phil Kessel. A guy like Larsson has not done one thing to exceed Kapanen in value, he probably has less.

Brown is 22 and only has 7 NHL games. But, guess what, Montour is 22 and hasn't played a single game at the NHL level. What elevates Montour's status above Brown's? They've both seen that major development spike over the past few years.

I don't want to trade the Leafs prospects for the Ducks D prospects, either. I am just acknowledging the value is closer to what I'm proposing then Ducks fans are asking. I'm mentioning prospects that have almost identical value to one another, even though I don't want to trade them. Ducks fans are asking for literally the best prospects in the world for these guys.

It's like Habs fans asking for JVR for Juulsen. Literally asking for top of the lineup talent, for stuff way way down your list.

Leaf fans should have no issue putting Nylander or Marner on the table for Shea Theodore. He's one of the best D prospects in the world not in the NHL full time.

From Ottawa the only players I'd insist on not giving up in a Theo deal would be Karlsson, Stone and Ceci. Literally anyone else would be up for discussion... though finding a fit would be near impossible between two budget teams.

The Leafs should trade top-10 elite bluechip talent, that has dominated at every level? The Sens protect names like Stone and Ceci, but the Leafs should have no problem offering up Nylander and Marner.

 

[Neiler]

The Leafs should trade top-10 elite bluechip talent, that has dominated at every level? The Sens protect names like Stone and Ceci, but the Leafs should have no problem offering up Nylander and Marner.

If you're talking about trading for a player on the same level, of course you should have no problem offering up a similar one.

Regarding Stone and Ceci, obviously I have my own agenda. I'd want to keep Stone because he's a unique player that only comes along so often. And Ceci I'd want to keep because I'd like to have Theo play with him.

What you're failing to see is I'd be leaving Turris, Hoffman, Brassard, Pageau, Ryan, Phaneuf, Chabot, White, Brown, and Perron open for discussion.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Kapanen has produced like a top-6 forward in the AHL, FEL and WJC as an 18/19 year old. That's actually quite impressive. He was thought of in the same class as Nylander at draft time but fell a little bit. He was moved as the main piece for star forward Phil Kessel. A guy like Larsson has not done one thing to exceed Kapanen in value, he probably has less.

Brown is 22 and only has 7 NHL games. But, guess what, Montour is 22 and hasn't played a single game at the NHL level. What elevates Montour's status above Brown's? They've both seen that major development spike over the past few years.

I don't want to trade the Leafs prospects for the Ducks D prospects, either. I am just acknowledging the value is closer to what I'm proposing then Ducks fans are asking. I'm mentioning prospects that have almost identical value to one another, even though I don't want to trade them. Ducks fans are asking for literally the best prospects in the world for these guys.

It's like Habs fans asking for JVR for Juulsen. Literally asking for top of the lineup talent, for stuff way way down your list.



The Leafs should trade top-10 elite bluechip talent, that has dominated at every level? The Sens protect names like Stone and Ceci, but the Leafs should have no problem offering up Nylander and Marner.

Once again it was made by a leaf fans, most ducks fans have no interest in trading montour larsson or Theodore baring an over payment, we're more interested in moving Fowler or despres.

Defence is a more desired position, we have a good system for raising dmen, why not let them grow and gain value, instead of potentially losing a gem, we are set at defence for a pretty good while we can turn our focus to drafting forwards and if a good prospect comes available for 1 of the 3 maybe Wed bite. I don't believe Kapanen or brown spark my interest enough tho, I like both players a lot too just not enough to trade our dmen.

I would do something around despres for brown or kapanen tho, or use them for an add for Fowler

 

[Magic Man]

If you're talking about trading for a player on the same level, of course you should have no problem offering up a similar one.

Regarding Stone and Ceci, obviously I have my own agenda. I'd want to keep Stone because he's a unique player that only comes along so often. And Ceci I'd want to keep because I'd like to have Theo play with him.

What you're failing to see is I'd be leaving Turris, Hoffman, Brassard, Pageau, Ryan, Phaneuf, Chabot, White, Brown, and Perron open for discussion.

Marner/Nylander are considered in every prospect ranking published to be a top-10 prospect. On most they're top-5. Theodore wasn't a top-10 prospect pre-draft. Theo at the time of his draft was not comparable to Marner/Nylander at the time of their's. Theo has played 3 seasons post draft and has not become a full-time NHL'er. Marner and Nylander are locks for this season. Nylander in his 3rd post draft season and Marner in his 2nd. The Leafs passed on names like Hanifin, Provorov and Werenski who would all be preferable to Theo for Marner and he hasn't given the Leafs a reason to doubt him yet. They value Nylander just as high. The top prospects in the league are all forwards right now Matthews/Laine/Marner/Pulujarvi/Nylander/Strome/Dubois.

The Leafs could make a list of assets similar to the Sens list that could be made available for Theo. But, he doesn't get those particular assets.

 

[scan15*]

If you're talking about trading for a player on the same level, of course you should have no problem offering up a similar one.

Regarding Stone and Ceci, obviously I have my own agenda. I'd want to keep Stone because he's a unique player that only comes along so often. And Ceci I'd want to keep because I'd like to have Theo play with him.

What you're failing to see is I'd be leaving Turris, Hoffman, Brassard, Pageau, Ryan, Phaneuf, Chabot, White, Brown, and Perron open for discussion.

Uh, you'll have to pay to get to someone to take Ryan and Phaneuf off your hands. Those guys are negative value. $6 million for a 2nd liner and $7 million for a 2nd pairing slow footed defenseman. LOL, you'd think the Sens are rich the way they acquire and pay second rate talent.

 

[supersonic jet]

meh Montour put 57 in 68 as a rookie(granted he is 2 years older) still very impressive #'s, he has been an offensive juggernaut in every league he has gone too. Not to mention theodores 37 in 50 is more impressive then kapanens #'s. Dmen are a more looked for position in the league, and usually valued a bit higher... ill hold on to both of them and if someone wants to over pay for it awesome, if not ... eventually guys like vatanen/fowler can be dangled and those guys can replace em.

Vaatenan has been hot garbage so far for Finland not much value their.