Wow the playoffs are intense. Can we compete

[ItsFineImFine]

I don't think they can but in fairness you can't judge fans in building vs no-fans. If they make it further and get a home crowd of 5-10k by the conference finals then we'll see.

They shouldn't need fans in the building to beat any team in this division though.

 

[zeke]

Performance wise, he gave us about a range of 95-105 points per year and first round exits. Last year we were in a 96 point range with a Babcock-Keefe split and lost in a preliminary round. This year we are at a 112 point pace in a different format.

I’m not a Babcock fan and I think we are in better hands that could produce more success in the playoffs and we all certainly like seeing Matthews and Marner in top 5 scoring and winning Rockets more than not, but I don’t see the Babcock era as a write off. More like a step one that the team grew out of. So there’s no real reason to poo poo it too much in hindsight.

Babcock:

Yr1: Regulation 39-27-16 (.573) +1 so pts ---- (#11 sv%)
Yr2: Regulation 42-26-14 (.598) + 7 so pts --- (#5 sv%)
Yr3: Regulation 46-28-8 (.610) + 0 so pts ----- (#10 sv%)
Yr3: Regulation 8-10-5 (.457) + 1 so pts ------- (#23 sv%)

Keefe:

Yr1: regulation 27-15-1 (.640) + 0 so pts ------ (#20 sv%)
Yr2: regulation 35-14-7 (.688) + 1 so pts ------ (#15 sv%)

 

[Stephen]

Interesting. Considering that our personnal is much better now, our performance under Babcock doesn't look bad at all. Especially when you consider he wasn't behind the bench the one time we lost in the playoffs against a team we were favoured to beat.



That's a point. If one cup in ten years was a failure for Detroit, I wonder how many are we supposed to win? We're pretty stacked with talent as well IMO.

Clearly the insinuation is Detroit under performed with Babcock as coach, and they certainly treaded water after the 2009 finals appearance. But in 2007-2009 they were within 2 games of winning 2x cups and that’s a peak you’d probably sign off on for this Leaf core. Matthews and Marner are younger so you hope their runway is a lot longer than Detroit’s in the 2000s but to downplay the one championship isn’t something I can behind when he haven’t gotten there yet.

 

[Stephen]

Babcock:

Yr1: Regulation 39-27-16 (.573) +1 so pts
Yr2: Regulation 42-26-14 (.598) + 7 so pts
Yr3: Regulation 46-28-8 (.610) + 0 so pts
Yr3: Regulation 8-10-5 (.457) + 1 so pts

Keefe:

Yr1: regulation 27-15-1 (.640) + 0 so pts
Yr2: regulation 35-14-7 (.688) + 1 so pts

You’re actually cutting out the delta in winning percentage between 2015-16 and 2016-17 which would be Year 2 of Babcock and completely glossing over the abilities of a 22-23 year old Matthews and friends vs a 19-20 year old Matthews and friends.

You yourself made the claim that Toronto was inferior in skill to Boston in 2018 and 2019 and the Washington Capirals in 2017 and those teams put up 112 and 107 and 118 points respectively. We are now a 112 point pro rated team having evolved and improved and matured.

So if Toronto wasn’t good enough to match Boston and Washington those years, how was Babcock at fault whilst coaching a 95-105 point young team? Doesn’t square.

 

[Leafsfan74]

I liked that trade, people like to shit on Kerfoot sometime, Kerfoot is a grinder like Kadri, minus the dumbshit Kadri does what seems like Every playoff.

Many have been critical of Dubas trade, even some such as Hayes on TSN stating that "no one can ague that the Leafs didn't lose this trade". Well, I would take him up on this offer and I've defended the trade on here.

First, the initial trade was for Brodie, Kadri nixed that deal, a clear win for the Leafs had it gone through (good on Dubas for keeping his eye on his target as Brodie has been a quiet assassin in the backend).

This decision really forced Dubas hand as the cat was out of the bag. For him to get Barrie AND Kerfoot is more than I would have expected under the circumstances. Barrie had an off year and has now lit it up for the Oilers. Kerfoot is still with the team this playoffs after being with them for a division crown. He's rarely misses games and hasn't been suspended. I'm not saying he alone is full value, but both players together are after Kadris back to back playoff suspensions.

Guys love hard nosed players like Simmonds, Foligno, Muzzin, Bogosian and the like. They are Gamers who put the team first and sacrifice to win. They don't like guys who abandon their team when they are warned by teammates and the coach to "settle down". You can drop the gloves on a guy, give and take a few shots and take the five minutes. Dirty hits have no place in the game and Parros better start owning his role as the league is reverting back to a game that will be far less interesting to watch (and more dangerous to play).

The Leafs intensity will be there this post-season, Dubas additions guarantee it. The Leafs had already made strides even in their close losses.

 

[zeke]

You’re actually cutting out the delta in winning percentage between 2015-16 and 2016-17 which would be Year 2 of Babcock and completely glossing over the abilities of a 22-23 year old Matthews and friends vs a 19-20 year old Matthews and friends.

Was just clarifying how the win loss record you were looking at was built.

And the delta between the 15-16 yr and the 1st Matthews/marner/Nylander year is only further evidence of who deserved credit for the initial improvement.

 

[Stephen]

Was just clarifying how the win loss record you were looking at was built.

And the delta between the 15-16 yr and the 1st Matthews/marner/Nylander year is only further evidence of who deserved credit for the initial improvement.

Of course they deserve the bulk of it. But it’s a team sport and the basic concept is if they didn’t have a coaching foundation, quality goaltending and veteran support they would have floundered the same way multiple Oiler and Avalanche builds did.

And to reiterate. I don’t even like Babcock but the narratives are just too extreme.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I don't think a couple cups is out of the question. It took Chicago a few years to get into that dominant stage. I mean 2 years for Keith in the A then like 4 or 5 years before he even saw the playoffs, also let's look at Tampa Bay too. How much money I lost on them over the years and just now they come to it with Stamkos in the twilight of his career.
2 cups in the Matthews era would be just amazing and I think possible

A couple isn't out of the question at all. One this year and plenty of time to get the next one.

Seriously though, I'd say we're more than likely to get at least one cup in the next decade, maybe 10% or something to get more than one. Hard to say, don't feel like straining my brain to come up with a better thought out probability but yeah, more than possible.

You’re actually cutting out the delta in winning percentage between 2015-16 and 2016-17 which would be Year 2 of Babcock and completely glossing over the abilities of a 22-23 year old Matthews and friends vs a 19-20 year old Matthews and friends.

You yourself made the claim that Toronto was inferior in skill to Boston in 2018 and 2019 and the Washington Capirals in 2017 and those teams put up 112 and 107 and 118 points respectively. We are now a 112 point pro rated team having evolved and improved and matured.

So if Toronto wasn’t good enough to match Boston and Washington those years, how was Babcock at fault whilst coaching a 95-105 point young team? Doesn’t square.

Young superstars are almost always a good bit better after a few years in the league then they are as rookies. Amazing that anyone with thousands of posts needs to have this explained to them.

Our lineup is also better in other areas, just look at who we have playing D now. It seems logical to assume that if Babcock was given better players (like Keefe now has), the results would also be better. It might not suit everyone's agenda but it's logical nevertheless.

Of course they deserve the bulk of it. But it’s a team sport and the basic concept is if they didn’t have a coaching foundation, quality goaltending and veteran support they would have floundered the same way multiple Oiler and Avalanche builds did.

And to reiterate. I don’t even like Babcock but the narratives are just too extreme.

I agree. Babcock just by being hired brought instant credibility and ended the country club atmosphere. I think he was really bad at the end and had he stayed the numbers may have gone downhill but looking back on what happened when he was here, the numbers aren't bad at all (regardless of Zeke's fancy agenda supporting stats, I still value wins above all else).

 

[francis246]

Thankfully Kadri isn't here to help with this intensity. Another playoff suspension appears imminent.

Dubas did well in that trade.

no he didn't and this is an awful take. It doesn't matter how many times Kadri gets suspended, that deal was brutal.

 

[francis246]

I'm interested to see how the NHL deals with this one. Specifically I'm looking for the Toronto bias. If it's a fine or one or two games that would be very telling on the NHL.
That hit last night looked pretty bad and like he was head hunting

not a head hunt, he tried to hit him in the chest and Faulk lowered his head as he was about to shoot. It was still a high hit, but you can tell just from Kadri's body language afterwards that there was immediate regret/remorse. It def wasn't head hunting.

 

[Leafsfan74]

no he didn't and this is an awful take. It doesn't matter how many times Kadri gets suspended, that deal was brutal.

Tyson Barrie just finished the season as the top point scoring defensemen in the entire NHL. Some would say that alone is worth the trade. You can't just pick up top scoring D Men out of thin air. Kerfoot had 23 points this year on a third line, and finished +2, Kadri had 32 points and finished -7 on a dominant team. Even straight up, it's looking like less and less imbalanced a trade.

The initial trade was for Brodie, which would have been a steal for the Leafs. After Kadri nixed it, Dubas had to get what he could because taking Kadri back was a non-starter. I am surprised he received as much as he did. If Barrie had been the top point getter in a Leafs uniform everyone would be shocked with the return.

Barries defense is too soft for my liking and what this current Leafs team needs, but, if you need a PP specialist or to get INTO the playoffs, he is valid. Succeeding in the playoff with too many D like him is another story. Kerfoot, also brings some shutdown and though he may be gone due to his cap hit, he hasn't been as bad as some suggest.

 

[nsleaf]

not a head hunt, he tried to hit him in the chest and Faulk lowered his head as he was about to shoot. It was still a high hit, but you can tell just from Kadri's body language afterwards that there was immediate regret/remorse. It def wasn't head hunting.

Very dangerous hit from the blind side but as long as he's remorseful. Faulk owes him an apology for putting his head in the path of Kadri's shoulder.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Babcock:

Yr1: Regulation 39-27-16 (.573) +1 so pts ---- (#11 sv%)
Yr2: Regulation 42-26-14 (.598) + 7 so pts --- (#5 sv%)
Yr3: Regulation 46-28-8 (.610) + 0 so pts ----- (#10 sv%)
Yr3: Regulation 8-10-5 (.457) + 1 so pts ------- (#23 sv%)

Keefe:

Yr1: regulation 27-15-1 (.640) + 0 so pts ------ (#20 sv%)
Yr2: regulation 35-14-7 (.688) + 1 so pts ------ (#15 sv%)

Should the second Yr3 be Yr4?
Also looks like top 10 goaltending and better defensive play the first 3 years.

 

[saltming]

not a head hunt, he tried to hit him in the chest and Faulk lowered his head as he was about to shoot. It was still a high hit, but you can tell just from Kadri's body language afterwards that there was immediate regret/remorse. It def wasn't head hunting.

I don't know man. Kadri rises up to hit him and is looking directly at hit head as he goes in

He's getting an in person hearing so looks serious

 

[francis246]

Very dangerous hit from the blind side but as long as he's remorseful. Faulk owes him an apology for putting his head in the path of Kadri's shoulder.

Faulk doesn't owe him an apology, but everyone preaches it. PROTECT YOURSELF AND KEEP YOUR HEAD UP. They teach you that in pewee....

 

[francis246]

I don't know man. Kadri rises up to hit him and is looking directly at hit head as he goes in
View attachment 436421



He's getting an in person hearing so looks serious

he's lined up shoulder to shoulder.. it's clear that he is looking to go hit the shoulder, faulk then drops his head. It's a split second reaction.

 

[saltming]

he's lined up shoulder to shoulder.. it's clear that he is looking to go hit the shoulder, faulk then drops his head. It's a split second reaction.

I agree it's a split second thing but Faulk was looking at the net the whole time and didn't drop his head. Kadri twists his body to avoid the left shoulder of Faulk.
Looks bloddy dirty to me

 

[francis246]

I agree it's a split second thing but Faulk was looking at the net the whole time and didn't drop his head. Kadri twists his body to avoid the left shoulder of Faulk.
Looks bloddy dirty to me

i stand corrected, faulk's head is upright. But still, I don't think Kadri intentionally goes for the head. I do believe he was trying to get the shoulder as the point of contact, but it's a high hit. I think he deserves a game, but no more than one game. Especially considering there were a handful of hits/plays this season that didn't even get an in person meeting that were worse than this.

 

[saltming]

i stand corrected, faulk's head is upright. But still, I don't think Kadri intentionally goes for the head. I do believe he was trying to get the shoulder as the point of contact, but it's a high hit. I think he deserves a game, but no more than one game. Especially considering there were a handful of hits/plays this season that didn't even get an in person meeting that were worse than this.

I obviously don't know if he was head hunting either, but the optics of that are not going to do him favors especially as a repeat offender

 

[zeke]

Of course they deserve the bulk of it. But it’s a team sport and the basic concept is if they didn’t have a coaching foundation, quality goaltending and veteran support they would have floundered the same way multiple Oiler and Avalanche builds did.

And to reiterate. I don’t even like Babcock but the narratives are just too extreme.

there's nothing extreme being discussed, though.

There were years of arguments where many posters insisted that Babcock was an excellent coach and that the weaknesses of the Leafs were fatal flaws in the players themselves that were sabotaging good coaching - these posters claimed that a change in coach would not improve anything, would likely make things worse, and the only way to address these weaknesses was to trade out pieces of the flawed core.

Other posters pointed out the blatant weaknesses in Babcock's systems and personnel usage, and predicted that pretty much any change to a normal coach with normal systems and normal personnel usage would definitely and quickly improve the team and address what were its biggest weaknesses.

Some posters were very wrong, some were right. Which is usually no big deal....except itt just turns out that the posters that were so very wrong on this massive issue still go out of their way to call out posters who were right about it, and still try to mock them for being biased and/or ignorant. All while refusing to admit they were so very, very wrong. So here we are.

 

[zeke]

Should the second Yr3 be Yr4?
Also looks like top 10 goaltending and better defensive play the first 3 years.

a) yes.

b) it looks like better goaltending those years, but definitely not better defensive play.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Dekes, you’ve made a impassioned appeal to the idea that there were many Babcock problems without naming anything that falls outside of what’s already been discussed.

Stephen, the issue isn't the problems you identified after you were called out, that you simultaneously downplayed and dismissed the importance of. It's that your initial argument centered around the idea that utilization issues weren't actual issues, and was just the result of fans wanting to see "glamourous numbers" from their stars. That completely misses the point.

Namely that they were unpopular player utilization

Not just "unpopular". Incorrect utilization that hurt the team. This was a massive part of Babcock's job.

Performance wise, he gave us about a range of 95-105 points per year

No, performance wise, our players and roster additions gave us that. Babcock without them gave us a last place finish. There's really nothing to suggest that Babcock had a positive impact on those later results.

Last year we were in a 96 point range with a Babcock-Keefe split

That's a pretty misleading way to say bad under Babcock and instantly way improved with the same roster under Keefe.

 

[francis246]

I obviously don't know if he was head hunting either, but the optics of that are not going to do him favors especially as a repeat offender

which i find to be really stupid. this whole repeat offender nonsense just creates more problems and it blows things way out of proportion. Each event should be dealt with on an individual basis. Was it a bad hit? Yes, but is it getting more attention than it probably should because of the time in the season in took place and because it's Kadri? yes. Which also isn't fair to him.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Isn't he now considered not to be a repeat offender, because he played enough games since previous suspension.

edit: no repeat offender status, if more than 18 months since last suspension.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Irrelevant except he was the coach.

Coaches don't get credit and praise for other people's work and natural improvements, with zero evidence, just because he physically existed during that time.