Wow the playoffs are intense. Can we compete

[JT AM da real deal]

This was a predatory hit on a defenceless player by a repeat offender. 10x worse than the hit on Debrusk. Anything less than an indefinte suspension proves the NHL is full of shite.

100% agree .. love Kadri but that was a deliberate head hunt on a defenseless player .. da DeBrusk play honestly was not even a suspension .. it was a cross check to da shoulder and was a max 2 minute penalty .. Debrusk laid down .. ref made a bad call in his bosses boss building .. Debrusk got up a LOLed on way to bench and was entirely unaffected by it even joked around about it later with teammates until he went back to his BS to media after game once he realized he could get Kadri suspended .. some people think it was a smart hockey move to get Kadri suspended but he lowered da bar .. in my day he would have been dressed down by his own teammates for pulling sh*t like that Howe would have slapped him around da head a few times for embarrassing his team

 

[Dekes For Days]

Also looks like top 10 goaltending and better defensive play the first 3 years.

Better goaltending, which has nothing to do with Babcock. Definitely not better defensive play.

 

[saltming]

which i find to be really stupid. this whole repeat offender nonsense just creates more problems and it blows things way out of proportion. Each event should be dealt with on an individual basis. Was it a bad hit? Yes, but is it getting more attention than it probably should because of the time in the season in took place and because it's Kadri? yes. Which also isn't fair to him.

I see what you're saying but I'm not sure I agree. I mean if the player has a track record of injuring other players I think the league has a responsibility to police the players.
I think the burtuzzi Moore incedent really got those wheels turning

 

[ECanuck]

From the games I have watched so far, the intensity and physicality of these first games is staggering. I am unsure if the Leafs can play that style. Now I don't think any of the Canadian teams can as well, but if we are lucky enough to get to the semi's its going to very interesting to see how we compete against some of those ultra competitive and physical teams. Even the Tampa Florida game was crazy hard and competitive. Do you think we will have what it takes??

Our guys are going to turn it up as well. Not concerned about this at all.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I see what you're saying but I'm not sure I agree. I mean if the player has a track record of injuring other players I think the league has a responsibility to police the players.
I think the burtuzzi Moore incedent really got those wheels turning

Couldn't agree more. The more time goes on, the more I hate all the BS violence in hockey. The NHL would be better off if guys like Wilson weren't in the league at all, definitely need harsher punishments! JMHO.

 

[Stephen]

Stephen, the issue isn't the problems you identified after you were called out, that you simultaneously downplayed and dismissed the importance of. It's that your initial argument centered around the idea that utilization issues weren't actual issues, and was just the result of fans wanting to see "glamourous numbers" from their stars. That completely misses the point.

Not just "unpopular". Incorrect utilization that hurt the team. This was a massive part of Babcock's job.

No, performance wise, our players and roster additions gave us that. Babcock without them gave us a last place finish. There's really nothing to suggest that Babcock had a positive impact on those later results.

That's a pretty misleading way to say bad under Babcock and instantly way improved with the same roster under Keefe.

Dekes, you have yet to demonstrate any Babcock issue beyond what was outlined against a team that basically finished 95–105 points in the early stages of a rebuild. Namely player utilization that was unpopular with fans such as yourself.

From a performance uptick under Keefe, we finished with a prorated 96 point season in the pandemic season and lost in Game 5 of a 5 game series and covered zero new ground last season. This year we finished with a prorated 112 points in a different format which is a 7 point improvement over the best Babcock season and fingers crossed we can go on a real run.

The only massive leap we have taken this year is we re-added personnel to up the grit and size factor which we lost after 2018 and 2019 and our young stars play more and finished top 5 in league scoring and won a Rocket. So up this point we aren’t really that far ahead of where we were during the peak Babcock year other than a more satisfying points distribution for our stars.

In the end we outgrew Babcock and got sick of his style because he couldn’t take us to the next level. But to characterize him as a massive failure, hindrance or problem or for you to take a “call out” stance? I don’t see it.

 

[Stephen]

Coaches don't get credit and praise for other people's work and natural improvements, with zero evidence, just because he physically existed during that time.

Ok, so same logic applies to anything Keefe manages to achieve, or different set of criteria?

 

[Bluebear]

Many have been critical of Dubas trade, even some such as Hayes on TSN stating that "no one can ague that the Leafs didn't lose this trade". Well, I would take him up on this offer and I've defended the trade on here.

For me the problem wasn't the trade, it was that Barrie wasn't flipped for an asset at the deadline when it was clear the team was in no way primed to do any damage in the playoffs. It could have worked, but they played like bums a lot last year, and it was obvious at the deadline that they should not be wasting assets.

 

[Stephen]

there's nothing extreme being discussed, though.

There were years of arguments where many posters insisted that Babcock was an excellent coach and that the weaknesses of the Leafs were fatal flaws in the players themselves that were sabotaging good coaching - these posters claimed that a change in coach would not improve anything, would likely make things worse, and the only way to address these weaknesses was to trade out pieces of the flawed core.

Other posters pointed out the blatant weaknesses in Babcock's systems and personnel usage, and predicted that pretty much any change to a normal coach with normal systems and normal personnel usage would definitely and quickly improve the team and address what were its biggest weaknesses.

Some posters were very wrong, some were right. Which is usually no big deal....except itt just turns out that the posters that were so very wrong on this massive issue still go out of their way to call out posters who were right about it, and still try to mock them for being biased and/or ignorant. All while refusing to admit they were so very, very wrong. So here we are.

The point isn’t being right or wrong about Babcock.

I’m saying he was unpopular because he made personnel decisions that wasn’t conducive to producing 50 goal and 100 point seasons for our Big Guns. Or high PPG which fans like yourself value highly.

Because if you look at the team record in the regular season for a 3 year stretch, we aren’t really light years ahead of those early years.

Plus as you’ve mentioned earlier in this thread you didn’t believe the Leafs were even a better skilled team than Washington or Boston. So if they weren’t as skilled, it’s not the coaching that held them back even if his player utilization was bonkers.

 

[Leafsfan74]

For me the problem wasn't the trade, it was that Barrie wasn't flipped for an asset at the deadline when it was clear the team was in no way primed to do any damage in the playoffs. It could have worked, but they played like bums a lot last year, and it was obvious at the deadline that they should not be wasting assets.

Possibly. I think that's hindsight though. Leafs had to figure he was going to work his tail off in the playoffs to try and land a big contract somewhere. If you trade him, it's more than likely going to be for prospects and/or picks which don't help the team immediately.

 

[Bluebear]

Couldn't agree more. The more time goes on, the more I hate all the BS violence in hockey. The NHL would be better off if guys like Wilson weren't in the league at all, definitely need harsher punishments! JMHO.

Wrong. Punish the cheap shots, but go to far and wreck the game and we can all just watch soccer with all the diving and whining to the refs about every little thing that happens.

 

[Stephen]

Possibly. I think that's hindsight though. Leafs had to figure he was going to work his tail off in the playoffs to try and land a big contract somewhere. If you trade him, it's more than likely going to be for prospects and/or picks which don't help the team immediately.

The ability to let Barrie walk and then pick up Brodie is a nice pivot for Dubas though. Gets the back to the original premise of Kadri for a great defender and has paid off this season.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Dekes, you have yet to demonstrate any Babcock issue beyond what was outlined

Because Stephen, the discussion isn't about the Babcock issues beyond what you outlined. You already named a bunch more after I pointed out a bunch were missing in your original post, and I don't care to rehash every problem with Babcock. The discussion is about the Babcock issue that was brought up in your original post, because you boiled the issue down to fans just wanting "glamourous numbers", when that is not true at all.

against a team that basically finished 95–105 points in the early stages of a rebuild.

Due to a huge influx of talent, including some of the best young players in the entire cap era, not Babcock. There's nothing to support attributing their quality to Babcock, especially when Babcock without them was the worst in the league, and Keefe with them was immediately significantly better.

Namely player utilization that was unpopular with fans such as yourself.

Player utilization that wasn't supported by anything and actively hurt the team, not just "unpopular with me". That's a great example of attempting to downplay the issue, just like calling toxic, inappropriate behaviour from Babcock just a "difficult personality".

From a performance uptick under Keefe, we finished with a prorated 96 point season in the pandemic season

Again, no. You can't attribute the record from the entire season to whatever you want. Last season was horrible under Babcock, and amazing under Keefe, in both the record and underlying metrics, with the same roster, despite more injuries and worse goaltending. It doesn't get much more obvious than that.

This year we finished with a prorated 112 points in a different format which is a 7 point improvement over the best Babcock season

Our improvement over that season is a lot more than what 7 points represents, which is quite obvious when you evaluate teams in better ways than looking at how many overall points they got. The previous 105 point season was built on great health, unbelievable goaltending (most notably a fluke from our old, journeyman backup), and an unsustainable shootout record - none of which we had this year.

So up this point we aren’t really that far ahead of where we were during the peak Babcock year other than a more satisfying points distribution for our stars.

That's not even close to true.

Ok, so same logic applies to anything Keefe manages to achieve, or different set of criteria?

I apply the same criteria to everybody. I look at what Keefe himself does, and why.

 

[Antropovsky]

For me the problem wasn't the trade, it was that Barrie wasn't flipped for an asset at the deadline when it was clear the team was in no way primed to do any damage in the playoffs. It could have worked, but they played like bums a lot last year, and it was obvious at the deadline that they should not be wasting assets.

Yea don't like that dubas backed out of signing Bogosian last year when he had chosen Toronto over Tampa. He could have been the difference in the Columbus series.

 

[Jmo89]

100% agree .. love Kadri but that was a deliberate head hunt on a defenseless player .. da DeBrusk play honestly was not even a suspension .. it was a cross check to da shoulder and was a max 2 minute penalty .. Debrusk laid down .. ref made a bad call in his bosses boss building .. Debrusk got up a LOLed on way to bench and was entirely unaffected by it even joked around about it later with teammates until he went back to his BS to media after game once he realized he could get Kadri suspended .. some people think it was a smart hockey move to get Kadri suspended but he lowered da bar .. in my day he would have been dressed down by his own teammates for pulling sh*t like that Howe would have slapped him around da head a few times for embarrassing his team

Just said the same thing to my Dad. First Boston series, it was a suspension - though the reffering was abhorrent in that game highlited by not even a 2 minute penalty for Marner getting elbowed in the head.

The Debrusk suspension was garbage. 5 minute penalty at most and the refs were once again at fault for letting things get so far. It looked worse in real time but happens a couple dozen times during the season. 100% agree about the pathetic display by Debrusk.

This latest one... Yeesh. I don't think he started with the intent to injure, but he overcommited and connected with all head. It's going to be hefty and close to 10 games I think.

 

[Superstar]

For me the problem wasn't the trade, it was that Barrie wasn't flipped for an asset at the deadline when it was clear the team was in no way primed to do any damage in the playoffs. It could have worked, but they played like bums a lot last year, and it was obvious at the deadline that they should not be wasting assets.

I don't think Barrie had much value last year at the deadline, he played like crap...would you trade him for a 3rd round pick? I don't think he would have gotten a 2nd.

 

[Stephen]

Because Stephen, the discussion isn't about the Babcock issues beyond what you outlined. You already named a bunch more after I pointed out a bunch were missing in your original post, and I don't care to rehash every problem with Babcock. The discussion is about the Babcock issue that was brought up in your original post, because you boiled the issue down to fans just wanting "glamourous numbers", when that is not true at all.

Due to a huge influx of talent, including some of the best young players in the entire cap era, not Babcock. There's nothing to support attributing their quality to Babcock, especially when Babcock without them was the worst in the league, and Keefe with them was immediately significantly better.

Player utilization that wasn't supported by anything and actively hurt the team, not just "unpopular with me". That's a great example of attempting to downplay the issue, just like calling toxic, inappropriate behaviour from Babcock just a "difficult personality".

Again, no. You can't attribute the record from the entire season to whatever you want. Last season was horrible under Babcock, and amazing under Keefe, in both the record and underlying metrics, with the same roster, despite more injuries and worse goaltending. It doesn't get much more obvious than that.

Our improvement over that season is a lot more than what 7 points represents, which is quite obvious when you evaluate teams in better ways than looking at how many overall points they got. The previous 105 point season was built on great health, unbelievable goaltending (most notably a fluke from our old, journeyman backup), and an unsustainable shootout record - none of which we had this year.

That's not even close to true.

I apply the same criteria to everybody. I look at what Keefe himself does, and why.

It would seem like you are rehashing Babcock quite a bit, Deke. But not outlining what specific issues you have with him which would have contributed to the shortfall between where the Leafs ended up and where you think they should have been.

For instance. Peak Babcock was 105 points. Peak pro rated Keefe is 112 points this season. Both would be in the same neighborhood of team achievement being a 7 point spread. Playoffs performance up to this season was a couple of Game 7 eliminations vs a Game 5 winner take all elimination. Hoping this changes this season but to suggest the Leafs have already taken a giant leap forward doesn’t quite square with actual standings and season finishes.

 

[Stephen]

Just said the same thing to my Dad. First Boston series, it was a suspension - though the reffering was abhorrent in that game highlited by not even a 2 minute penalty for Marner getting elbowed in the head.

The Debrusk suspension was garbage. 5 minute penalty at most and the refs were once again at fault for letting things get so far. It looked worse in real time but happens a couple dozen times during the season. 100% agree about the pathetic display by Debrusk.

This latest one... Yeesh. I don't think he started with the intent to injure, but he overcommited and connected with all head. It's going to be hefty and close to 10 games I think.

I think the Boston factor in the previous suspension factored more than any repeat offense against Faulk. I tend to think Jeremy Jacobs probably made that call himself and St. Louis isn’t going to get the same justice.

 

[Stinger8]

I like how this is shaping up.

TBL versus Florida has been a tough, physical series and the teams have been beating each other up. One of those teams will be eliminated (Florida probably ?) so that's one less good team we will have to face if/when we get past the first two divisional playoff rounds.

Boston versus Washington - Same situation as mentioned above. One of those teams will get eliminated.

VGK versus Minnesota - Pretty much the same in this series. One of those good teams will get eliminated.

Shaping up to be a potentially a pretty good situation for us should we get through our divisional opponents.

Just win baby win!

GLG

Yea but 1 really good team remains???? The question is can we compete, predominantly on a physical level with the remaining teams??? I am cautiously optimistic we can.

 

[Stinger8]

Thankfully Kadri isn't here to help with this intensity. Another playoff suspension appears imminent.

Dubas did well in that trade.

I disagree

 

[Gary Nylund]

Wrong. Punish the cheap shots, but go to far and wreck the game and we can all just watch soccer with all the diving and whining to the refs about every little thing that happens.

Being in the NHL shouldn't be a license to commit assault. I love hockey, the people that prefer fights can watch fights. Would you pay to see fighters to play hockey?

 

[Dekes For Days]

It would seem like you are rehashing Babcock quite a bit, Deke. But not outlining what specific issues you have with him which would have contributed to the shortfall between where the Leafs ended up and where you think they should have been.

I'm not the one that brought up Babcock, Stephen, and no, quite a few issues with Babcock have been outlined.

Peak Babcock was 105 points. Peak pro rated Keefe is 112 points this season. Both would be in the same neighborhood of team achievement

The 2017-2018 team and the 2020-2021 teams are quite different - 7 points is not an accurate representation of the difference between them. That is a good example of how utilizing exclusively single season overall points to evaluate the quality of teams can sometimes lead individuals to incorrect conclusions.

 

[DarkKnight]

Intensity. Check!!!

 

[FraumBallard]

Couldn't agree more. The more time goes on, the more I hate all the BS violence in hockey. The NHL would be better off if guys like Wilson weren't in the league at all, definitely need harsher punishments! JMHO.

Badminton might be a better choice for you.
Enjoy.

 

[FraumBallard]

I disagree

Yeah.
You’re Wrong.
100% Wrong.
Kerfoot is useless.
Barrie was horrible.
Kadri is great.
Pay Attention.