Wow the playoffs are intense. Can we compete

[zeke]

LOL wow, really? If discussing hockey is that stressful for you, stay away from the internet.

so that's how Gary finally admits he lied. good to know.

 

[notDatsyuk]

It's funny, really.

These leafs have never, ever NOT shown up for the playoffs. The leafs have never not taken a series to the limit.

Technically i guess the WSH series didn't go 7gms but with 5OT games in 6 that was about as close as a series gets.

Even teams like tampa have no-shows and get swept by the likes of columbus. Vegas got wiped in 5gms by the only good team they faced in the playoffs last year - Leafs have never been beat like that. the Bruins have been run over by the Bolts twice in the past 3yrs. The Caps got destroyed in 5 by the islanders last year. The blues were handled easily by the CANUCKS last year. The Pens got wiped in 4 by the HABS. The oilers got beat in 4 by the friggen hawks.

It's funny, really.

Five of the seven series you mention occurred in the second or third round of the playoffs.

We haven't made it that far since 2004, when we got beat in the second round.

 

[zeke]

As series favourites in the first 2 rounds the Leafs should be fine. If the Leafs struggle with Montreal and then either Edmonton or Winnipeg then we already have our answer if they can compete against good teams, based on their performance against lower QofC.

The real test begins in rounds #3 onward when the quality of the competition rises up and Leafs go from the favourites to underdogs.

Mess will never, ever answer the question as to why he was so convinced the Leafs weren't at all favorites to win the division a few months ago.

 

[zeke]

It's funny, really.

Five of the seven series you mention occurred in the second or third round of the playoffs.

We haven't made it that far since 2004, when we got beat in the second round.

I am sure you will be 100% convinced that the Leafs are a successful playoffs team the moment they beat montreal, then.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It does not change the fact that if you recurve votes you are in the conversation. Just because you don't like it shows not make a difference.
The young guns their first 2 years played like kids and had growing pains. Babcock forced them to structure their games to a pro level, again that had nothing to do with the system he employed which was not suited to the assembled talent we have.

I remember the first year under Babcock. Hardy any talent at all but they played with good structure for the first time in ages, fun to watch!

As series favourites in the first 2 rounds the Leafs should be fine. If the Leafs struggle with Montreal and then either Edmonton or Winnipeg then we already have our answer if they can compete against good teams, based on their performance against lower QofC.

The real test begins in rounds #3 onward when the quality of the competition rises up and Leafs go from the favourites to underdogs.

Struggling at times is normal. I wouldn't be surprised if we handled MTL easily, I would expect EDM to be at least somewhat of a "struggle" though.

The funny thing is that the Leafs didn't even take advantage of the "weak" division - they actually did worse against OTT/VAN/CGY than they did against the playoffs teams.

Uneven play during the season isn't something to be happy about for sure, I wouldn't worry about it too much though. But yeah, I think we'd all be happier had we played better at times during the season.

 

[Gary Nylund]

so that's how Gary finally admits he lied. good to know.

The only liar here is you and I quoted you as proof. You can't do the same because I never lied, simple.

 

[Duffman955]

Holy shit, people so negative in this thread.

We crushing montreal in 2 days, get ready

 

[notDatsyuk]

I am sure you will be 100% convinced that the Leafs are a successful playoffs team the moment they beat montreal, then.

It's at least a start.

I guess I'm just one of those people who doesn't like to brag about how great we are until we actually win at least a bit.

There are two ways of trying to show you are better than someone else: do better, or try to minimize their achievements. I much prefer the former, although it is harder to do.

 

[zeke]

It's at least a start.

I guess I'm just one of those people who doesn't like to brag about how great we are until we actually win at least a bit.o.

but you're fine about bragging about the success of other teams that beat the likes of the Coyotes in round 1.

 

[zeke]

The only liar here is you and I quoted you as proof. You can't do the same because I never lied, simple.

your quote clearly didn't say what you wanted it to say.

you attacked, and then you lied.

 

[zeke]

It's at least a start.

I guess I'm just one of those people who doesn't like to brag about how great we are until we actually win at least a bit.

There are two ways of trying to show you are better than someone else: do better, or try to minimize their achievements. I much prefer the former, although it is harder to do.

I guarantee you I won't be bragging if we beat Montreal.

But based on the arguments in this thread, a whole lot of you better be if you hope to maintain a shred of consistency.


But let's be real - we've already seen the incoming flip flop - even while praising other teams for beating the likes of the Hawks and coyotes and canucks in rounds 1 and 2, you guys have already set up the expectations that you WILL NOT praise the leafs for beating the "weak" habs and oilers in the first two rounds, and will still consider the team a failure if they lose in round 3.

This is obviously what is coming from you guys, because you guys aren't consistent or objective - only critics.

 

[Dekes For Days]

There are two ways of trying to show you are better than someone else: do better, or try to minimize their achievements.

Leafs are the only ones who get their achievements minimized around here.

 

[Mess]

Struggling at times is normal. I wouldn't be surprised if we handled MTL easily, I would expect EDM to be at least somewhat of a "struggle" though.

I thought Leafs played McDavid and the Oilers better then all the other CDN teams specially during that 3 game stretch were they held him and Draisaitl in check..

Leafs seemed to elevate their game defensive game to neutralize elite skilled players, and that gives us hope that can be repeated again, and also when we might face other stars like OV, Crosby, MacKinnon, Marchand, Barzal etc.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

It's funny, really.

These leafs have never, ever NOT shown up for the playoffs. The leafs have never not taken a series to the limit.

Technically i guess the WSH series didn't go 7gms but with 5OT games in 6 that was about as close as a series gets.

Even teams like tampa have no-shows and get swept by the likes of columbus. Vegas got wiped in 5gms by the only good team they faced in the playoffs last year - Leafs have never been beat like that. the Bruins have been run over by the Bolts twice in the past 3yrs. The Caps got destroyed in 5 by the islanders last year. The blues were handled easily by the CANUCKS last year. The Pens got wiped in 4 by the HABS. The oilers got beat in 4 by the friggen hawks.

They didn't show up for the playoffs last year (didn't make it), but your point is well taken.

Hopefully this will be the year where those Game 7 games swing our way. Or we just handle or business in fewer games.

 

[Stephen]

You guys have to be able to admit you were wrong when the facts are so blatant - the instant turnaround in team structure the moment he was canned is proof positive that you were all very, very wrong.

Just be adults and admit it. You'll feel better.

And anyways my opinion did evolve, just much more quickly than your guys' did - Babcock was indeed an immediate upgrade on what we had had previously, and he did especially good work reclaiming two maligned sorta-young players in Kadri and Gardiner and I loved Babcock for it ....at the start.....but it should have become quickly apparent to everyone that in terms of systems and structure he was very poor, and not much different than Carlyle, and that his personnel and playing time decisions were extremely suspect. But you guys refused to see it, for years.

That's fine, we all make mistakes, but if you can't admit you were wrong about blatant things like this, then you lose all credibility when attacking others past opinions.

Zeke, there’s nothing to admit. I’m not an Andersen fan and I’m not a Babcock fan but a cursory look at most scorched earth rebuilds will tell you that air lifting a handful of scoring young players picked high in the draft doesn’t typically yield a sustained turnaround unless the team has other ingredients working in its favour. And that’s usually coaching and structure or a goalie who can give them a chance to run and gun with a margin.

I understand if your overall governing philosophy is 1) Leafs are the best 2) offensive producers and their numbers are the best, then everything kind of falls outside of that Venn Diagram is going to either be a net neutral at best or a hindrance. And granted, Babcock and Andersen ran their course. Doesn’t mean you were right to bang that drum in 2017 or 2018 or whenever.

 

[Stephen]

As series favourites in the first 2 rounds the Leafs should be fine. If the Leafs struggle with Montreal and then either Edmonton or Winnipeg then we already have our answer if they can compete against good teams, based on their performance against lower QofC.

The real test begins in rounds #3 onward when the quality of the competition rises up and Leafs go from the favourites to underdogs.

I think of the first two rounds as continuations of the regular season. But a good ramp up for potentially more difficult series. So beyond just winning you want to see signs of maturation, a heavier game, more of a playoff gear.

 

[Stephen]

It's funny, really.

These leafs have never, ever NOT shown up for the playoffs. The leafs have never not taken a series to the limit.

Technically i guess the WSH series didn't go 7gms but with 5OT games in 6 that was about as close as a series gets.

Even teams like tampa have no-shows and get swept by the likes of columbus. Vegas got wiped in 5gms by the only good team they faced in the playoffs last year - Leafs have never been beat like that. the Bruins have been run over by the Bolts twice in the past 3yrs. The Caps got destroyed in 5 by the islanders last year. The blues were handled easily by the CANUCKS last year. The Pens got wiped in 4 by the HABS. The oilers got beat in 4 by the friggen hawks.

If you were to roughly categorize the Toronto Columbus series determining factors into 3 buckets of skill, effort/intangibles and goaltending and want to make the claim that the Leafs skill level and effort level were great and assign blame to the goalie, that’s fine...

But let’s dig a little deeper. How do you reconcile the fact that the GM went out and rebuilt the lower half of the roster to address mostly the effort/intangibles without upgrading on Andersen in an “all in” year?

Dubas actually went out and followed the Tampa Bay model of getting tougher, more defensive, bigger and harder to play against, more mature in the room.

Clearly the architect of the team did not diagnose the loss the same way you have.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Holy shit, people so negative in this thread.

We crushing montreal in 2 days, get ready

Amen, bud.

I’m not entirely sure who the “usual” crowd for that is anymore, but it’s always been this way. Grab some beers and enjoy the ride!

 

[notDatsyuk]

but you're fine about bragging about the success of other teams that beat the likes of the Coyotes in round 1.

I don't recall bragging about anyone, and certainly not Colorado, if that's who you mean (I had to look it up).

 

[Gary Nylund]

your quote clearly didn't say what you wanted it to say.

you attacked, and then you lied.

Why would the quote say what I wanted it to say? I was quoting you, you can say whatever you want.

I thought Leafs played McDavid and the Oilers better then all the other CDN teams specially during that 3 game stretch were they held him and Draisaitl in check..

Leafs seemed to elevate their game defensive game to neutralize elite skilled players, and that gives us hope that can be repeated again, and also when we might face other stars like OV, Crosby, MacKinnon, Marchand, Barzal etc.

That 3 game stretch was really something, probably the best we played all year. Of course there's hope, there's always hope.

I guarantee you I won't be bragging if we beat Montreal.

But based on the arguments in this thread, a whole lot of you better be if you hope to maintain a shred of consistency.

But let's be real - we've already seen the incoming flip flop - even while praising other teams for beating the likes of the Hawks and coyotes and canucks in rounds 1 and 2, you guys have already set up the expectations that you WILL NOT praise the leafs for beating the "weak" habs and oilers in the first two rounds, and will still consider the team a failure if they lose in round 3.

This is obviously what is coming from you guys, because you guys aren't consistent or objective - only critics.

I'll go on record now, feel free to bookmark for later use (you know, in case you want to throw around accusations of lying in the future).

The Oilers are not "weak", they're a good team. Even the Habs, while not as good as the Oilers IMO they're still a good team that we should expect to play hard and try to beat us. Favourites don't always win and we shouldn't take any team lightly. Every team that makes the playoffs is good, you keep pointing out how we had trouble with teams like Ottawa and Vancouver, that suggests that we'd be fools to take any team lightly, wouldn't you agree? That said, if we lose to MTL it will be hard to imagine a scenario where it wouldn't be a huge disappointment as we are substantial favourites to beat them. Yes I know, you said that's just "an opinion" but it's actually a fact, feel free to google something like "NHL playoff series betting lines" and see for yourself.

We should be favoured in the first two rounds. If we don't win them, then it doesn't mean that the team is "a failure", but it will probably mean that the season is a disappointment.

As far as round 3 goes, we might be favoured there, then again we might not. Therefore IMHO it makes no sense whatsoever to make decisions based on the 3rd round at this point. I would hope that we win or if we lose, at least we play about as well as we can play and put up a helluva fight. If we do that and lose, so be it. There's never any shame in playing your best and losing to a better team. If however we lose because we play well below our capabilites the way we did against CLB last year, or against Boston in the two game 7's we lost to them in the two previous years then that's another story. If that happens then I would be disappointed for sure.

What about you Zeke, what are your expectations?

 

[zeke]

If you were to roughly categorize the Toronto Columbus series determining factors into 3 buckets of skill, effort/intangibles and goaltending and want to make the claim that the Leafs skill level and effort level were great and assign blame to the goalie, that’s fine...

But let’s dig a little deeper. How do you reconcile the fact that the GM went out and rebuilt the lower half of the roster to address mostly the effort/intangibles without upgrading on Andersen in an “all in” year?

Dubas actually went out and followed the Tampa Bay model of getting tougher, more defensive, bigger and harder to play against, more mature in the room.

Clearly the architect of the team did not diagnose the loss the same way you have.

Kapanen --> Foligno
Johnsson --> Thornton
Clifford ----> Simmonds
Gauthier --> Nash
Robertson -> Galchenyuk

Barrie ------> Brodie
Ceci ---------> Bogo
Marincin --> Sandin

Andersen --> Campbell

 

[notDatsyuk]

Leafs are the only ones who get their achievements minimized around here.

The post I was replying to was trying to show how good we are by pointing out that other teams had (relatively) poorer showings.

 

[Guided by Veseys]

Hey, if the team doesn’t beat Montreal in a 7 game series then I would definitely classify them as a failure. Last year I can overlook as the Bluejackets were elite defensively and it was only a 5 game series after a layoff.
There needs to be a serious reckoning if they don’t beat the Habs; you simply don’t get an easier opponent.

 

[zeke]

Why would the quote say what I wanted it to say? I was quoting you, you can say whatever you want.

Because you wanted it to support your lie, and it obviously didn't. So now you're just going to keep lying about it while pretending to be the reasonable and objective poster.

The Oilers are not "weak", they're a good team. Even the Habs, while not as good as the Oilers IMO they're still a good team that we should expect to play hard and try to beat us. Favourites don't always win and we shouldn't take any team lightly. Every team that makes the playoffs is good, you keep pointing out how we had trouble with teams like Ottawa and Vancouver, that suggests that we'd be fools to take any team lightly, wouldn't you agree? That said, if we lose to MTL it will be hard to imagine a scenario where it wouldn't be a huge disappointment as we are substantial favourites to beat them. Yes I know, you said that's just "an opinion" but it's actually a fact, feel free to google something like "NHL playoff series betting lines" and see for yourself.

We should be favoured in the first two rounds. If we don't win them, then it doesn't mean that the team is "a failure", but it will probably mean that the season is a disappointment.

You have already gone on record proclaiming winning two rounds as a non-accomplishment, with the 3rd round being the first real test. This while you take great offense to anyone who points that other teams' playoffs success is often built off of beating weak teams.

As far as round 3 goes, we might be favoured there, then again we might not. Therefore IMHO it makes no sense whatsoever to make decisions based on the 3rd round at this point. I would hope that we win or if we lose, at least we play about as well as we can play and put up a helluva fight. If we do that and lose, so be it. There's never any shame in playing your best and losing to a better team. If however we lose because we play well below our capabilites the way we did against CLB last year, or against Boston in the two game 7's we lost to them in the two previous years then that's another story. If that happens then I would be disappointed for sure.

What about you Zeke, what are your expectations?

My expectations are the cup. Anything less is a failure.

 

[IPS]

You guys have to be able to admit you were wrong when the facts are so blatant - the instant turnaround in team structure the moment he was canned is proof positive that you were all very, very wrong.

Just be adults and admit it. You'll feel better.

And anyways my opinion did evolve, just much more quickly than your guys' did - Babcock was indeed an immediate upgrade on what we had had previously, and he did especially good work reclaiming two maligned sorta-young players in Kadri and Gardiner and I loved Babcock for it ....at the start.....but it should have become quickly apparent to everyone that in terms of systems and structure he was very poor, and not much different than Carlyle, and that his personnel and playing time decisions were extremely suspect. But you guys refused to see it, for years.

That's fine, we all make mistakes, but if you can't admit you were wrong about blatant things like this, then you lose all credibility when attacking others past opinions.

I asked it before and nobody cared to answer - why haven't all these rebuilding teams over the last 2 years tried to acquire Babcock since he's allegedly such an incredible asset to a rebuild?

One of the lines that got thrown around here often during the Babcock days was "If Dubas was fired he'd never get a GM job again the league but if Babcock was fired he'd be hired instantly" and people really hammered on the latter part. Babcock hasn't been hired since because everyone knows he's a shitty coach nowadays.