Blue Jays Discussion: Winter Meetings: Because there's no more fitting time to talk baseball than December

[Kurtz]

Man, it sure seems like teams are going overboard in trying to out-bullpen each other. The Kimbrel trade, the Soria, Madson and Lowe contracts... yikes.

Well, either all of these executive teams (including the world series winners) are dumb, or maybe the value of a good bullpen has been grossly underrated since...at least the release of Moneyball where Billy Boy was seen as largely ignoring the BP (an attitude he's definitely changed more recently).

 

[Canada4Gold]

Kris Bryant filed a service time grievance.

Didn't even know you could do that but he was 1 day short of a full year service time, everyone and their dog knew he was gonna be kept down until that day. Assuming you can argue about that he has a case.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Tellez named to AFL top prospects team.

89 PA's, slashed .293/.352/.488 with 4 HR, 4 doubles, and 7 walks.

 

[Habaneros]

May I ask why you're using a pitchers win-loss record to determine how successful they were?

Team success hinges on the pitchers WINS record.....not era....plain and simple.
How many pitchers you seen end up with good era's but with losing records?..You see it all the time.

It's the combined total of the pitchers wins that matter, when your talking about making the playoffs....Plain and simple.

Chavez /Happ will not equal the wins total of Mark Buehrle and Hutch last year.
Happ and Chavez will not get 28 wins for Jays this year.So lets says if it was Happ and Chavez last year in the rotation
and they combined got 20 wins....Jays don't finish in front of the Yankees right?

This is why i worry in 2016...and with Edwin putting a deadline on the Jays it seems there is some UNREST
in the clubhouse ....Is this a revolt for the Alex and Price handling?Will soon see.

Remember this ,the JAYS PLAYERS got happy not when Tulo showed up..(cause they had the bats and defense)..remember ?

It was when PRICE(the pitching) arrived they got happy.....The Jays went cheap in the off-season,didn't even offer to Price/
I bet Ed and Jose are not liking this path...Hence Eddies ultimatum and Jose won't be far behind him...IMHO

 

[Canada4Gold]

This cannot be a serious discussion can it? You're trying to make yourself look stupid for some reason?

It's not even worth the argument, pitchers don't win games on their own, if Happ and Chavez are pitching for the Jays this past year their offense scores more runs for them and thus they end up winning more games

Go tweet this argument to Wilner, he needs to waste some more of his time

 

[Eyedea]

Well, either all of these executive teams (including the world series winners) are dumb, or maybe the value of a good bullpen has been grossly underrated since...at least the release of Moneyball where Billy Boy was seen as largely ignoring the BP (an attitude he's definitely changed more recently).

From 99-06 the A's had a top 5 bullpen.

Over his entire period as GM they rank 3rd in fWAR.

 

[Mitchy]

Team success hinges on the pitchers WINS record.....not era....plain and simple.
How many pitchers you seen end up with good era's but with losing records?..You see it all the time.

It's the combined total of the pitchers wins that matter, when your talking about making the playoffs....Plain and simple.

Chavez /Happ will not equal the wins total of Mark Buehrle and Hutch last year.
Happ and Chavez will not get 28 wins for Jays this year.So lets says if it was Happ and Chavez last year in the rotation
and they combined got 20 wins....Jays don't finish in front of the Yankees right?

This is why i worry in 2016...and with Edwin putting a deadline on the Jays it seems there is some UNREST in the clubhouse ....Is this a revolt for the Alex and Price handling?Will soon see.

Remember this ,the JAYS PLAYERS got happy not when Tulo showed up..(cause they had the bats and defense)..remember ?

It was when PRICE(the pitching) when they got happy.....The Jays went cheap in the off season,didnt even offer to Price/
I bet Ed and Jose are not liking this path...Hence Eddies ultimatum and Jose won't be far behind him...IMHO

I was about to respond to this, but what's the point? You're a very funny person, my friend. The logic you use is just beautiful.

 

[Kurtz]

From 99-06 the A's had a top 5 bullpen.

Did they?

Well that increases my respect for Billy. When he dumped out his playbook in Moneyball, he held a few secrets back.

 

[Muston Atthews]

As long as your opinion is humble, or honest.

 

[tml19]

 

[TootooTrain]

I gave him enough chances. To the list he goes.

 

[TF97]

Team success hinges on the pitchers WINS record.....not era....plain and simple.
How many pitchers you seen end up with good era's but with losing records?..You see it all the time.

It's the combined total of the pitchers wins that matter, when your talking about making the playoffs....Plain and simple.

Chavez /Happ will not equal the wins total of Mark Buehrle and Hutch last year.
Happ and Chavez will not get 28 wins for Jays this year.So lets says if it was Happ and Chavez last year in the rotation
and they combined got 20 wins....Jays don't finish in front of the Yankees right?

This is why i worry in 2016...and with Edwin putting a deadline on the Jays it seems there is some UNREST
in the clubhouse ....Is this a revolt for the Alex and Price handling?Will soon see.

Remember this ,the JAYS PLAYERS got happy not when Tulo showed up..(cause they had the bats and defense)..remember ?

It was when PRICE(the pitching) arrived they got happy.....The Jays went cheap in the off-season,didn't even offer to Price/
I bet Ed and Jose are not liking this path...Hence Eddies ultimatum and Jose won't be far behind him...IMHO

I don't even know how to respond to this. I'll just give you a hands clapping emoticon and move on

 

[TootooTrain]

Tellez named to AFL top prospects team.

89 PA's, slashed .293/.352/.488 with 4 HR, 4 doubles, and 7 walks.

Not alot blocking him in the system. Will be interesting to see how his atbats will be handled. Either way, he already won the award for the prospect with the best name.

 

[LaCarriere]

can you do everyone a favour and delete your account?

A pitcher in the AL can't control the offense. A pitcher can lose 1-0 and be credited with a loss - does that mean he pitched poorly?

As for your comment about if Happ / Chavez were in the rotation last year and saying they might only get 20 wins so they don't make the playoffs - not true. They could have been no-decisions where a reliever gets credited with the win.

Happ and Chavez are two guys that played on teams with inferior offenses. Happ spent most of the year in Seattle, who finished 21st in runs scored. Chavez was in Oakland who finished 14th. Having a 900+ run offense is going to inflate the rotations win-loss record. I wouldn't be shocked if Happ / Chavez set career highs in wins.

 

[Habaneros]

As long as your opinion is humble, or honest.

The same reasons Roy Halladay left will be the reasons Eddie and Jose leave town...Last year they seen the team take 3 steps ahead..finally
a championship caliber team...

This off-season?The club takes 3 steps backwards(firing Alex bring in Chavez Happ and letting Price walk without even trying)

There both goona leave town like Roy...they had enough.....IMHO...

 

[King Mapes]

Team success hinges on the pitchers WINS record.....not era....plain and simple.
How many pitchers you seen end up with good era's but with losing records?..You see it all the time.

It's the combined total of the pitchers wins that matter, when your talking about making the playoffs....Plain and simple.

Chavez /Happ will not equal the wins total of Mark Buehrle and Hutch last year.
Happ and Chavez will not get 28 wins for Jays this year.So lets says if it was Happ and Chavez last year in the rotation
and they combined got 20 wins....Jays don't finish in front of the Yankees right?

This is why i worry in 2016...and with Edwin putting a deadline on the Jays it seems there is some UNREST
in the clubhouse ....Is this a revolt for the Alex and Price handling?Will soon see.

Remember this ,the JAYS PLAYERS got happy not when Tulo showed up..(cause they had the bats and defense)..remember ?

It was when PRICE(the pitching) arrived they got happy.....The Jays went cheap in the off-season,didn't even offer to Price/
I bet Ed and Jose are not liking this path...Hence Eddies ultimatum and Jose won't be far behind him...IMHO

1995 called. They want their stats back. You can join us in 2015 any time you like.

Funny how you talk about Hutch's win-loss then 2 minutes later talk about how inconsistent he was and won't be on our team next year. Do you read what you type before you submit it? You should.


Hutch had 8 runs of support. How many guys in history had that? With our offence, any pitcher can win. People haven't stopped Jose, Edwin or Donaldson but magically they will be stopped next year? Put down your keyboard..

 

[The Nemesis]

Team success hinges on the pitchers WINS record.....not era....plain and simple.
How many pitchers you seen end up with good era's but with losing records?..You see it all the time.

It's the combined total of the pitchers wins that matter, when your talking about making the playoffs....Plain and simple.

Chavez /Happ will not equal the wins total of Mark Buehrle and Hutch last year.
Happ and Chavez will not get 28 wins for Jays this year.So lets says if it was Happ and Chavez last year in the rotation
and they combined got 20 wins....Jays don't finish in front of the Yankees right?

This is why i worry in 2016...and with Edwin putting a deadline on the Jays it seems there is some UNREST
in the clubhouse ....Is this a revolt for the Alex and Price handling?Will soon see.

Remember this ,the JAYS PLAYERS got happy not when Tulo showed up..(cause they had the bats and defense)..remember ?

It was when PRICE(the pitching) arrived they got happy.....The Jays went cheap in the off-season,didn't even offer to Price/
I bet Ed and Jose are not liking this path...Hence Eddies ultimatum and Jose won't be far behind him...IMHO

I'm really not sure what to make of this...

I've read it through 4 times and still the train of thought seems to disappear down a long, dark tunnel about a paragraph in and never return.
Somebody call Unsolved Mysteries. Maybe we can hire a Robert Stack impersonator too.

 

[one77]

Trade Dickey, sign Heyward, sign 1-2 good bullpen arms

Stroman
Estrada
Happ
Chavez
Hutchison/Sanchez
-Sanchez/Hutchison/Osuna/FA/Cecil/FA/Venditte

Travis 2B
Donaldson 3B
Bautista RF
Encarnacion DH
Heyward LF
Tulowitzki SS
Martin C
Colabello 1B
Pillar CF
-Goins 2B/Pompey OF/Smoak 1B/Matthis C

Elite offensively + elite defensively. Add in the fact that Stroman could be that #1 ace (that isn't costing $31M/year). And our pitching depth is real good. We don't need 2 aces, we just need the #2-5 pitchers to be average-good, our elite offense+defense should handle the rest.

 

[TF97]

1995 called. They want their stats back. You can join us in 2015 any time you like.

Funny how you talk about Hutch's win-loss then 2 minutes later talk about how inconsistent he was and won't be on our team next year. Do you read what you type before you submit it? You should.


Hutch had 8 runs of support. How many guys in history had that? With our offence, any pitcher can win. People haven't stopped Jose, Edwin or Donaldson but magically they will be stopped next year? Put down your keyboard..

Bautista could probably earn the W with 8 runs of support

 

[LaCarriere]

The same reasons Roy Halladay left will be the reasons Eddie and Jose leave town...Last year they seen the team take 3 steps ahead..finally
a championship caliber team...

This off-season?The club takes 3 steps backwards(firing Alex bring in Chavez Happ and letting Price walk without even trying)

There both goona leave town like Roy...they had enough.....IMHO...

who cares if they leave? Jose will be 36 going into the 2017 season and Edwin will be nearly 34. Take the comp. pics if the sign elsewhere and call it a day. If you can extend them for a couple years (nothing past say 38 years old) on reasonable deals keep them. The Jays have a bit of an upper hand, because each of them are going to cost a pick for another team to sign (assuming they qualify them, which I'm assuming they would because neither is going to take a 1 year deal).

That said, they are both probably going to want deals that take them to 39-40, and probably at market value, not another team friendly contract after watching guys like Martin, Buehrle, Reyes, Tulo, etc get their big paydays at the expense of Rogers.

Also, the team already has Edwin / Smoak / Colabello at 1B/DH, and I don't see Bautista finished his career in the OF. Those two positions are jammed up as it is.

 

[Paneerboy]

Team success hinges on the pitchers WINS record.....not era....plain and simple.
How many pitchers you seen end up with good era's but with losing records?..You see it all the time.

It's the combined total of the pitchers wins that matter, when your talking about making the playoffs....Plain and simple.

Chavez /Happ will not equal the wins total of Mark Buehrle and Hutch last year.
Happ and Chavez will not get 28 wins for Jays this year.So lets says if it was Happ and Chavez last year in the rotation
and they combined got 20 wins....Jays don't finish in front of the Yankees right?

This is why i worry in 2016...and with Edwin putting a deadline on the Jays it seems there is some UNREST
in the clubhouse ....Is this a revolt for the Alex and Price handling?Will soon see.

Remember this ,the JAYS PLAYERS got happy not when Tulo showed up..(cause they had the bats and defense)..remember ?

It was when PRICE(the pitching) arrived they got happy.....The Jays went cheap in the off-season,didn't even offer to Price/
I bet Ed and Jose are not liking this path...Hence Eddies ultimatum and Jose won't be far behind him...IMHO

Yikes. I'm not an advanced baseball fan (to the extent of some of the guys on this board) but even I know this is bad.

 

[Eyedea]

Did they?

Well that increases my respect for Billy. When he dumped out his playbook in Moneyball, he held a few secrets back.

Finding pitchers who could become successful closers wasn't all that difficult. To fill the
hole at the back of his bullpen Billy had traded to the Toronto Blue jays a minor league
third baseman, Eric Hinske, for Billy Koch, another crude fireballer. He knew that Hinske
was very good—he'd wind up being voted 2002 Rookie of the Year in the American
League—but the Oakland A's already had an even better third baseman, Eric Chavez. Plus,
Billy knew that, barring some disaster, Koch, too, would gain a lot of value as an asset.
Koch would get his saves and be perceived by other teams to be a much more critical piece
of a successful team than he actually was, whereupon the A's would trade him for
something cheaper, younger, and possibly even better.

This was his MO. Taylor, Isringhausen, Koch, Faulke, Street, Bailey, Balfour, Doolittle, Clippard. He was always able to find a closer and he generally was capable of selling high or letting go at the right time (whether he got back something good in hindsight is another story). He had some solid depth in the early years too with Jones, Mecir, Duch, Tam, Bradford, Calero, Dotel, etc.

 

[Habaneros]

1995 called. They want their stats back. You can join us in 2015 any time you like.

Funny how you talk about Hutch's win-loss then 2 minutes later talk about how inconsistent he was and won't be on our team next year. Do you read what you type before you submit it? You should.


Hutch had 8 runs of support. How many guys in history had that? With our offense, any pitcher can win. People haven't stopped Jose, Edwin or Donaldson but magically they will be stopped next year? Put down your keyboard..

The Royals stopped them in the playoffs right?Bottom line the stats show it .The Royals FOUND the recipe to slow the Jays bats down...
Jays hit 240 vs Royals...what happened?

Hutchinson was an anomaly as i said..You will never see that again in your life (8 runs of support/5.67 era and 13 wins)
No he won't be with the Jays this year in the starting rotation coming out of spring training ...

Bye bye Eddie and Jose in next 300 days....the window for Toronto is very SMALL....

 

[Mitchy]

*sighs*

Safe to say, it's going to be a LONG offseason.

 

[TF97]

The Royals stopped them in the playoffs right?Bottom line the stats show it .The Royals FOUND the recipe to slow the Jays bats down...
Jays hit 240 vs Royals...what happened?

Hutchinson was an anomaly as i said..You will never see that again in your life time(8 runs of support/5.67 era and 13 wins)..No he wont be with the Jays this year in the starting rotation coming out of spring training ...

Bye bye Eddie and Jose with in next 300 days....the window for Toronto is very SMALL....

Let me show you the stat lines for Josh, Jose, EE, and Tulo against KC in the ALCS

Josh Donaldson: .261/.370/.478
Jose Bautista: .316/.500/.684
Edwin Encarnacion: .227/.292/.273
Troy Tulowitzki: .304/.304/.522

Only Edwin struggled out of the big four bats. But oh my Kansas City sure did shut down the big bats! Watch out guys, they're going to struggle next year!