Winnipeg Sun: Jets, Mark Chipman, call for help as attendance decreases

[BKIslandersFan]

I don't think it's a gotcha at all. If you READ what I actually wrote, you'll see I said it was amusing.

And after lecturing about posts not mentioning hockey, how many posts are you going to make that do not mention hockey? (Asking for a friend.)

Everyone here agrees you have no point and is wasting time.

Go pretend you are smarter than everyone else somewhere else.

 

[Stumbledore]

Everyone here agrees you have no point and is wasting time.

Go pretend you are smarter than everyone else somewhere else.

Yep, you keep telling yourself that everyone agrees with you.

Or whatever else gives you comfort.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Yep, you keep telling yourself that everyone agrees with you.

Or whatever else gives you comfort.

People are calling you out for your nonsense, and no one has said anything about me.


You do the math buddy. Good luck.

 

[Jets4Life]

Without population growth it might be an issue if Thomson dies or sells the team, but we are long way from that.

The population of Metro Winnipeg has grown from 750,000 when the Jets returned to 900,000 today. It.s projected to hit 1,000,000 people by 2030.

 

[Jets4Life]

As long as there is some discussion about Canada vs US, then try this as a thought experiment:

Let's say that the 7 Canadian teams decide to secede from the NHL and form a new league, and then offer Quebec the 8th franchise in such an enterprise. 8 teams is enough to form a decent league. These 8 teams would be able to market themselves to a North American media contract.

Now, these are the questions:
1) Would the Rogers contract be the same?
2) Assuming that the contract $ would be the same, would the prospective players choose to play in Canada in enough numbers to sustain the league?

Would the New Canada Hockey League have enough respect that the Stanley Cup would go to a final playoff winner?

I don't know the answers to the questions. But they are interesting to think about.

With over 40 million people, Canada definitely has the interest and population to support an all-Canadian league. I mean if Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, and Finland have leagues, why not Canada?

It obviously would not be as financially successful as the current NHL, but I can see it being more popular than the CFL, and would probably rival the KHL in terms of finances.

 

[CTHabsfan]

As long as there is some discussion about Canada vs US, then try this as a thought experiment:

Let's say that the 7 Canadian teams decide to secede from the NHL and form a new league, and then offer Quebec the 8th franchise in such an enterprise. 8 teams is enough to form a decent league. These 8 teams would be able to market themselves to a North American media contract.

Now, these are the questions:
1) Would the Rogers contract be the same?
2) Assuming that the contract $ would be the same, would the prospective players choose to play in Canada in enough numbers to sustain the league?

Would the New Canada Hockey League have enough respect that the Stanley Cup would go to a final playoff winner?

I don't know the answers to the questions. But they are interesting to think about.

This "thought experiment" has already been tried several times on HF. Canadian-based NHL teams are not independent organizations that can secede from the NHL, they are NHL franchises. You would need to start up new teams, find new arenas, get a new TV deal ($ would not be even remotely close to the same), and get guys who would be willing to play for far less money (forget having top-level players).

 

[jetsmooseice]

The population of Metro Winnipeg has grown from 750,000 when the Jets returned to 900,000 today. It.s projected to hit 1,000,000 people by 2030.

There is more to it than just numbers. Winnipeg is generally not attracting hockey loving university graduates with lots of disposable income from other Canadian cities. The typical arrival to Winnipeg is more likely to be a student from India, someone with a college diploma from the Philippines or someone with less than a high school education from an isolated northern community. These generally aren't people that will give the slightest crap about the NHL and even if they did, they wouldn't have the means to buy tickets. Maybe their grandchildren will one day, but that's a long way off.

But the point about what happens when Thomson/Chipman get old and die is a good one. At that point TNSE or its successor will reasonably want fair market value for the team. But the problem is that the team will probably be worth a fair bit less based in Winnipeg than in a larger market. No one is going to want to pay for the Jets if they are priced as though they are located in a Houston-sized market. But will Thomson/Chipman's kids be satisfied with selling the Jets for 60 cents on the dollar because the team is worth less in a small market?

At that point there will be immense pressure on Thomson/Chipman's kids to sell to the highest bidder regardless of what their intentions are with the team. But who knows, maybe the heirs will want to keep the team in Winnipeg themselves.

 

[jetsmooseice]

With over 40 million people, Canada definitely has the interest and population to support an all-Canadian league. I mean if Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, and Finland have leagues, why not Canada?

It obviously would not be as financially successful as the current NHL, but I can see it being more popular than the CFL, and would probably rival the KHL in terms of finances.

I like this idea in theory, but Canada does not have a stellar track record of supporting home grown leagues.

In much the same way that Toronto takes its cues regarding sports from the US, Canada takes its cues regarding sports from Toronto. If the Toronto-based media likes it, then it will be popular across Canada (NHL, Raptors, Jays). If the Toronto-based media ignores it, then it will be a niche thing at best (curling, CHL, U Sports).

 

[Jets4Life]

I like this idea in theory, but Canada does not have a stellar track record of supporting home grown leagues.

What other professional sports league has Canada had, other than the CFL, and very minor pro soccer?

 

[Jets4Life]

There is more to it than just numbers. Winnipeg is generally not attracting hockey loving university graduates with lots of disposable income from other Canadian cities. The typical arrival to Winnipeg is more likely to be a student from India, someone with a college diploma from the Philippines or someone with less than a high school education from an isolated northern community. These generally aren't people that will give the slightest crap about the NHL and even if they did, they wouldn't have the means to buy tickets. Maybe their grandchildren will one day, but that's a long way off.

How is this different than anywhere else in North America? Have you ever been to Edmonton? It has nearly the same demographics as Winnipeg does. Here is a list of median household income as of 2020:

Calgary $100,000
Ottawa-Gatineau $98,000
Toronto $97,000
Edmonton $96,000
Vancouver $90,000
Winnipeg $83,000

When we account for housing prices, per-capita, Winnipeg has more disposable income to spend on sports than any other city with an NHL team other than Edmonton.

 

[jetsmooseice]

What other professional sports league has Canada had, other than the CFL, and very minor pro soccer?

Off the top of my head, in recent decades... the CSL, the CanPL, the CEBL, the CBL, pro curling, junior hockey is weakly supported outside of small towns, university sports get barely any support outside of maybe a half dozen smaller cities.

The relatively small number of Canadian pro leagues speaks to the weak support for pro sports apart from the small handful that receive the Bell/Rogers blessing from Toronto.

How is this different than anywhere else in North America? Have you ever been to Edmonton? It has nearly the same demographics as Winnipeg does. Here is a list of median household income as of 2020:

Calgary $100,000
Ottawa-Gatineau $98,000
Toronto $97,000
Edmonton $96,000
Vancouver $90,000
Winnipeg $83,000

When we account for housing prices, per-capita, Winnipeg has more disposable income to spend on sports than any other city with an NHL team other than Edmonton.

Interprovincial migration numbers are much better to Alberta than to Manitoba. It's to the point now where it feels like Calgary is full of people from Ontario, Saskatchewan and BC. Edmonton maybe less so but still way more university-educated, Canadian born people likely to buy NHL tickets than there are in Winnipeg.

 

[Jets4Life]

Off the top of my head, in recent decades... the CSL, the CanPL, the CEBL, the CBL, pro curling, junior hockey is weakly supported outside of small towns, university sports get barely any support outside of maybe a half dozen smaller cities.

I said "professional" leagues, so junior hockey or college hockey do not count. CSL was the equivalent of one level down from ECHL in hockey. Ditto for CEBL. I have no idea what CanPL stands for, but again these are third/fourth tier leagues.

Why include curling in the conversation?. Curling is not a popular spectator sport the way hockey, basketball, football, and baseball are.

The relatively small number of Canadian pro leagues speaks to the weak support for pro sports apart from the small handful that receive the Bell/Rogers blessing from Toronto.

You are seemingly comparing Canada to the United States which has 9x the population.

Interprovincial migration numbers are much better to Alberta than to Manitoba. It's to the point now where it feels like Calgary is full of people from Ontario, Saskatchewan and BC. Edmonton maybe less so but still way more university-educated, Canadian born people likely to buy NHL tickets than there are in Winnipeg.

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to state. The education level and schooling is pretty similar in Canadian cities.

 

[jetsmooseice]

First off, I said "professional" leagues, so junior hockey or college hockey do not count. CSL was the equivalent of one level down from ECHL in hockey. Ditto for CEBL. I have no idea what CanPL stands for, but again these are third/fourth tier leagues.

So basically exclude all the examples of questionably supported sports leagues that prove my point

With better support, the leagues I mentioned wouldn't be ECHL-level operations. That's the point.

Your argument loses credibility when you include a sport like curling, which has virtually no popularity outside the brier.

Again, you are proving my point. Curling was once as popular in Toronto as it was in the rest of the country. Once Toronto and the media corporations there lost interest, it became a bit of a niche product with a small Maritime and Prairie fanbase. Just as Toronto takes its cues from NYC, the rest of English Canada takes its cues from Toronto.

Prove it.

Prove that it's not. Alberta is the number one beneficiary of interprovincial migration, that alone should tell you something.

 

[Jets4Life]

Again, you are proving my point. Curling was once as popular in Toronto as it was in the rest of the country.

Curling never had the popularity to operate a pro league that would be economically feasible.

 

[Jets4Life]

In much the same way that Toronto takes its cues regarding sports from the US, Canada takes its cues regarding sports from Toronto. If the Toronto-based media likes it, then it will be popular across Canada (NHL, Raptors, Jays). If the Toronto-based media ignores it, then it will be a niche thing at best (curling, CHL, U Sports).

The Toronto media ignores the CFL, yet it has always been popular, especially in Western Canada.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

The Toronto media ignores the CFL, yet it has always been popular, especially in Western Canada.

Thats what I hear, but I think its a problem when they are not popular in 3 largest cities in Canada.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

The Toronto media ignores the CFL, yet it has always been popular, especially in Western Canada.

I demand a CFL team in Quebec City before I take that league seriously.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Thats what I hear, but I think its a problem when they are not popular in 3 largest cities in Canada.

Here in Montreal its basically dead , probably 99% of the city couldn't tell you who the alouettes quarterback is , or who its been since Anthony Calvillo left. MLS has surpassed it

 

[Yukon Joe]

But the point about what happens when Thomson/Chipman get old and die is a good one. At that point TNSE or its successor will reasonably want fair market value for the team. But the problem is that the team will probably be worth a fair bit less based in Winnipeg than in a larger market. No one is going to want to pay for the Jets if they are priced as though they are located in a Houston-sized market. But will Thomson/Chipman's kids be satisfied with selling the Jets for 60 cents on the dollar because the team is worth less in a small market?

At that point there will be immense pressure on Thomson/Chipman's kids to sell to the highest bidder regardless of what their intentions are with the team. But who knows, maybe the heirs will want to keep the team in Winnipeg themselves.

David Thomson is the 3rd Baron of Fleet. He's old money, running the company founded by his grandfather.

Mark Chipman doesn't have a title, but he took over the autodealership group Birchwood that was founded by his father.

Why do you think the children of either man would be in a hurry to sell?

Now the only note I would have is that Chipman has 3 daughters, and Thomson has 5 daughters and 1 son (but that son was born after the relationship with the mother broke up). I can't think of any female owners in the NHL, but maybe the Chipman / Thomsons will be the first.

 

[MMC]

Will the Rangers being in town give the Jets attendance a boost tonight?

 

[Jets4Life]

Will the Rangers being in town give the Jets attendance a boost tonight?

I hope so.

It would be great to see Wheeler get a nice reception in front of a good crowd.

 

[hammer42]

People here forget Mark Chipman is the face of the franchise not money that honor goes to the richest man in Canada David Thompson how think they where able to get the Jets back so in my opinion the Jets will be just fine .

 

[Captain97]

How is this different than anywhere else in North America? Have you ever been to Edmonton? It has nearly the same demographics as Winnipeg does. Here is a list of median household income as of 2020:

Calgary $100,000
Ottawa-Gatineau $98,000
Toronto $97,000
Edmonton $96,000
Vancouver $90,000
Winnipeg $83,000

When we account for housing prices, per-capita, Winnipeg has more disposable income to spend on sports than any other city with an NHL team other than Edmonton.

Where did you get these numbers? Because they aren't accurate. Toronto in 2020 was about $80,000 and in 2021 was $84,000.

But I agree with you as a whole, once adjusting for cost if living mid sized cities tend to have more disposable income in the middle class.

 

[jetsmooseice]

David Thomson is the 3rd Baron of Fleet. He's old money, running the company founded by his grandfather.

Mark Chipman doesn't have a title, but he took over the autodealership group Birchwood that was founded by his father.

Why do you think the children of either man would be in a hurry to sell?

I can see it happening. Right now it's kind of a two-family pact. But eventually the old men die, and once you factor the differing opinions of several children, many of whom may not have the emotional connection to the city and team that the dads have, and the desire to liquidate a very lucrative asset, and I can see the ownership group falling apart like so many season ticket groups did before it, haha.

I mean I could be wrong and I hope I am. But I don't see the Jets being a multigenerational family dynasty. But now that you mention it, I'd be curious to know Chipman's succession plan.

 

[Stumbledore]

I can see it happening. Right now it's kind of a two-family pact. But eventually the old men die, and once you factor the differing opinions of several children, many of whom may not have the emotional connection to the city and team that the dads have, and the desire to liquidate a very lucrative asset, and I can see the ownership group falling apart like so many season ticket groups did before it, haha.

Yeah, old men die, but the 3rd Baron of Fleet is still only 65 so don't get your hopes up soon. It'll be more than a decade before he's even old enough to consider a run for President.