Winnipeg Sun: Jets, Mark Chipman, call for help as attendance decreases

[jetsmooseice]

There was a tremendous sense of loss in 1996 when the Jets left. It went well beyond "we like hockey and we'll miss the team" - it was seen kind of as a sense of Winnipeg's demise as any kind of major city, and a sign of decline. It played at least some part in my leaving town a few years later.

By 2011 there was a huge sense of "we need to support this team to make sure it never leaves again", at least amongst the people I spoke with. This didn't just come from Chipman (though he did make comments like that as well), but from ordinary people as well.

So when Chipman says stuff like that - I know some (particularly on hfboards) took offence, but I don't think it would be taken the same way in Winnipeg itself.

@jetsmooseice I know you know this - I'm just expanding on your point.

The funny thing is that the 1996 departure more or less inured me to whatever might happen with this incarnation of the Jets. I mean, I don't want, nor do I expect the Jets to leave again, but it would not be some terrible catastrophic thing to my eyes if they did. I went through it once before and life went on just fine. Besides, putting too much collective emotional importance on the team exposes you to getting screwed by exploitative owners like the situations in Edmonton and now again in Calgary. But that said, I don't think Chipman is cut from the same cloth as those guys in Alberta.

 

[golfortennis1]

Why not? As long as you're making more money elsewhere that more than makes up for what the team is losing there's no reason why they can't do it forever.

Now the assumption here is that TNSE (and Osmington's) other investments around downtown are boosted by the fact the Jets bring all these people into downtown Winnipeg. If they no longer feel that is the case then all bets are off.

All of that being said, of course, TNSE still wants to minimize it's losses (if in fact there are losses), which still explains the sales pitch by Chipman.

Please post your investment profile, so I know what investments to avoid.

Anyone rich enough to own a team has gotten there(or their family has) by not sticking with money losers. Thompson may "love his little team", but he's not going to fund losses.

The bolded is something that you might say (tactfully and indirectly) as CEO of a public charity.

Not a good talking point for a businessman speaking to other businessmen. His profit line is not their problem. He either has a product that they want to spend money on, or he doesn't.

This has strong shades of Peter Karmanos. Not implying relocation, but in terms of ham-handed PR mistakes by a guy who's kind of playing at being a sports owner.

This right here. I would love to see the reaction of the Jets ownership if one of the businesses they were speaking to turned the question on them. Somehow I don't think there would be much of a positive response.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Quote by ichbinkanadier:
“To the casual fan, if a New York, LA, Chicago et al team is playing, they'd likely be more inclined to watch it than if Edmonton, Winnipeg, Buffalo, Columbus or Ottawa was playing.”
I just don’t understand this “fans only wanting to watch a team from a big city” thing. I understand that this is the case, but why wouldn’t they want to watch a good team regardless of where they are from?

 

[SImpelton]

Quote by ichbinkanadier:
“To the casual fan, if a New York, LA, Chicago et al team is playing, they'd likely be more inclined to watch it than if Edmonton, Winnipeg, Buffalo, Columbus or Ottawa was playing.”
I just don’t understand this “fans only wanting to watch a team from a big city” thing. I understand that this is the case, but why wouldn’t they want to watch a good team regardless of where they are from?

Because they tend to attract the best talent?

 

[SimpleSimon]

Because they tend to attract the best talent?

Like Edmonton? Winnipeg had a great team in 2018 and Laine was exciting to watch, but unfortunately had fallen off since. I don’t think thats the case. I think its just the big city name that does it.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

David Thomson is worth $52 billion dollars. He has MORE than enough dough to cover any losses.

since when does 'worth' equate to having that actual amount of cash on hand?

 

[Lady Stanley]

The Jets don’t have an attendance problem they have a corporate money problem. Corporate boxes are gold for a ownership group, you can sell out or be close to selling out but to rely on that solely as a revenue stream is risky, that’s why even with 93% attendance Chipman is concerned. Corporate boxes bring in massive amounts of money. Part of the reason why the Leafs and Rangers are the cream of the crop in money making is that corporations are willing to dump massive amounts of money into boxes, sponsorships etc. it’s a brand. Chipman is crying because he knows once this rebuild starts and attendance really starts to plummet due to the product on the ice there won’t be any corporate money as a saving grace. Once attendance drops their revenue goes out the window

Also the Jets have one of the smallest capacities in the league so if it’s not completely sold out that’s a huge revenue problem. Chipman should be finding a better promotion team than crying to the media

Manitoba, will likely have a bit of an economic boost.

We have this drama teacher guy who had this crazy idea of just sending wave after wave of people at Canadian cities until their economies boom.

Winnipeg being the least desirable province, is gonna see the trickle down effect as everyone else fills up.

Combined with a highly probable boom in agriculture/mining etc.

Keeping in mind mining companies can be awfully "pro community" as native communities/public good will/government is so involved in all of that.

 

[Lady Stanley]

Please post your investment profile, so I know what investments to avoid.

Anyone rich enough to own a team has gotten there(or their family has) by not sticking with money losers. Thompson may "love his little team", but he's not going to fund losses.

There's a difference between wealth and rich.

Wealth is I don't care about annual operating expenses.

The value of the team is about to go way up if the Ottawa turns out like it sounds like it will.

The team would have to lose a lot of money for a lot of years before it caught up to him.

Normies spend percentage points of their income on sports every year, isn't all that different for Billionaires.

since when does 'worth' equate to having that actual amount of cash on hand?

When the money required "in hand" is 0.01% of your wealth.

It's absurd that an AHL team is also in a city that small, it's a good hint ownership doesn't really care.

 

[ponder719]

Like Edmonton? Winnipeg had a great team in 2018 and Laine was exciting to watch, but unfortunately had fallen off since. I don’t think thats the case. I think its just the big city name that does it.

A casual is less likely to know which teams have the best talent at any given time, so they look for the well-known brand. It's like asking a random person to walk into Micro Center and figure out which parts would make the best computer; they wouldn't have a clue, except for "what's expensive" and "I've heard of Microsoft before."

 

[golfortennis1]

There's a difference between wealth and rich.

Wealth is I don't care about annual operating expenses.

The value of the team is about to go way up if the Ottawa turns out like it sounds like it will.

The team would have to lose a lot of money for a lot of years before it caught up to him.

Normies spend percentage points of their income on sports every year, isn't all that different for Billionaires.


When the money required "in hand" is 0.01% of your wealth.

It's absurd that an AHL team is also in a city that small, it's a good hint ownership doesn't really care.

If you think Thompson is willingly handing over money to cover operating losses because "it's of no impact to him", I have oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you.

You're talking about philanthropy, and they are not doing it here.

 

[Lady Stanley]

If you think Thompson is willingly handing over money to cover operating losses because "it's of no impact to him", I have oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you.

You're talking about philanthropy, and they are not doing it here.

active listening please, my point was specifically that franchise value went up at a rate faster than he is losing money in operating expenses.

you'll know when he's concerned when the moose leave town.

 

[BMN]

you'll know when he's concerned when the moose leave town.

The fact that there are NHL cities where the AHL team also plays in the same city is not surprising to me. The fact that Winnipeg is one of those cities...admittedly a little bit surprising to me...

Although it's one of those things that makes no sense and all of the sense in the world. When you think of the biggest reason why a major league team would want their affiliate nearby (AKA "easier to grab a player when it's needed"), it's actually places that have the least busy airports that make sense (AKA Winnipeg). But conversely when you think of teams that would care less about market saturation, you'd figure it'd be a bigger market.

With the Moose, I can't imagine the type of money Chipman is concerned about (AKA corporate) is really being stretched too thin by having an AHL team too. But my knowledge about minor league finances could fit into a thimble so...

 

[Yukon Joe]

The fact that there are NHL cities where the AHL team also plays in the same city is not surprising to me. The fact that Winnipeg is one of those cities...admittedly a little bit surprising to me...

Although it's one of those things that makes no sense and all of the sense in the world. When you think of the biggest reason why a major league team would want their affiliate nearby (AKA "easier to grab a player when it's needed"), it's actually places that have the least busy airports that make sense (AKA Winnipeg). But conversely when you think of teams that would care less about market saturation, you'd figure it'd be a bigger market.

With the Moose, I can't imagine the type of money Chipman is concerned about (AKA corporate) is really being stretched too thin by having an AHL team too. But my knowledge about minor league finances could fit into a thimble so...

I think the thing to remember is that the Jets and the Moose aren't really in the same business. Or at least the same business model. McDonalds and a high end steakhouse might both be in the business of serving food, but they really don't compete with each other.

I don't think you get into a Jets game for less than $100/seat, whereas the Moose are more at like $25 - and they have a ton of promotions and deals.

A Manitoba Moose game is one you take your kids too, or take your minor hockey team to. A Jets game is an expensive night out, so it's one you take your client to, or a special night out once or twice a year.

Plus I think to a certain extent they can just write the Moose off as a development expense. WHen the Jets first came into the league the Moose were the St John's IceCaps off in Newfoundland. St John's is a great hockey market, but it's also really far away with no direct flights. Having the prospects in the same building, and not half a continent away,, has to be worth a certain loss of revenue.


Of course while it's not strange to me to have the AHL present in Winnipeg, what is strange is to have both the AHL and the WHL, because those teams do compete at the same price point.

 

[Lady Stanley]

I think the thing to remember is that the Jets and the Moose aren't really in the same business. Or at least the same business model. McDonalds and a high end steakhouse might both be in the business of serving food, but they really don't compete with each other.

Yes but if I end up somewhere where my only choice is getting steak, I have to get steak. You won't sell 3,000 extra ticket per game, but you'd probably have 200-300 extra tickets being sold on a given night.

I don't think you get into a Jets game for less than $100/seat, whereas the Moose are more at like $25 - and they have a ton of promotions and deals.

A Manitoba Moose game is one you take your kids too, or take your minor hockey team to. A Jets game is an expensive night out, so it's one you take your client to, or a special night out once or twice a year.

but once or twice turns into twice or thrice, when you have no other option.

Plus I think to a certain extent they can just write the Moose off as a development expense. WHen the Jets first came into the league the Moose were the St John's IceCaps off in Newfoundland. St John's is a great hockey market, but it's also really far away with no direct flights. Having the prospects in the same building, and not half a continent away,, has to be worth a certain loss of revenue.

For the record this is more or less exactly how I became a Jets fan. Those were the glory days of newfoundland, where everything was on wheels, best parties, night life, job opportunities, happiness, everyone was proud and felt like real winners, and then everything hit a brick wall in 2014. I didn't watch hockey then but I'll always associate the Icecaps as Newfoundland's time in the sun.

Of course while it's not strange to me to have the AHL present in Winnipeg, what is strange is to have both the AHL and the WHL, because those teams do compete at the same price point.

If both were magically gone it'd be a net win for the jets but I'm pretty sure that's a over a dead body situation.

 

[Yukon Joe]

If both were magically gone it'd be a net win for the jets but I'm pretty sure that's a over a dead body situation.

Well there are reports that the WInnipeg Ice will be gone very shortly. The plan had been for them to build their own building. That was four years ago, there's been no hint of a start of construction, and the league is mad. (mind you there was this whole pandemic thing)

In the mean time the Ice certainly acted like a team going out of business - trading multiple draft picks for years in order to go for a championship this year. (they lost in the WHL finals to Seattle)

And of course it's up to the Jets themselves what to do withthe Moose. They can move them at any time if they want to. The team itself seems to think the best place for the Moose is in Winnipeg.

Several years ago they did float a plan to move them to Thunder Bay, but that required help from the city to build an arena and they didn't get anywhere.

 

[Lady Stanley]

Well there are reports that the WInnipeg Ice will be gone very shortly. The plan had been for them to build their own building. That was four years ago, there's been no hint of a start of construction, and the league is mad. (mind you there was this whole pandemic thing)

That's interesting, maybe that's why they have an AHL team, to help squeeze the WHL out of the market?

And of course it's up to the Jets themselves what to do withthe Moose. They can move them at any time if they want to. The team itself seems to think the best place for the Moose is in Winnipeg.

Well that goes back to an earlier post, methinks thompson isn't worried about losing a bit of money, and is more big picture than that.

Several years ago they did float a plan to move them to Thunder Bay, but that required help from the city to build an arena and they didn't get anywhere.

They'll always be welcome in St.Johns.

 

[Yukon Joe]

That's interesting, maybe that's why they have an AHL team, to help squeeze the WHL out of the market?

AHL was here first though, by several years.

I think TNSE/Chipman have publicly put on a positive face about the Winnipeg Ice, and heck they even let the Ice play at the CLC for the WHL Championship, but would be just as happy to see them go and aren't going to go too far to help them out.

 

[MMC]

 

[Ernie]

Yikes. Discretionary spending is drying up. What happens if they go through a cycle that isn't competitive?

Moving forward, this should be the final writing on the wall for any idea of a Quebec franchise. Nobody is dropping $1bn CAD for a money losing business.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

Big problem right now is everyone is feeling the money crunch with inflation. Both my wife and I make 6 figures which sounds awesome but in reality for us we have to watch were we spend our money. We were thinking of going to the game last night with our daughter. At first we were looking at the lower bowl and the cheapest 3 tickets we found would cost us 400+ altogether. Couple that with parking/food/etc.. we are looking at 500+ night out. We decided we just couldn't do that this week.

Yes I know we could have gotten tickets in the upper bowl but still a 300+ night out for us.

Money printing and inflation shot up but the people earning wages haven't increased at the same rate.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Yeah, that's really scary to see those kind of numbers - and couldn't even sell out the home opener!

I mean - 11, 226 is on par with the 95-96 season (average 11, 316) when nobody bothered showing up because the team was already leaving (Note: dangerous to compare a season average attendance with a single game). But this should have been a decent game to watch - LPD's return to Winnipeg, it's October so the weather is hardly that cold, team is off to a good start so far.

 

[MeHateHe]

I was thinking about this as I sat in a quarter-full arena watching the Victoria WHL team play last night.

There used to be a connection between the team and the local sports franchise - in Canada, primarily the hockey team. That connection is lost and a lot of Canadian hockey team owners - from the NHL down to Junior B - don't seem to see it that way. There's still this vague idea that if you throw open the doors to the arena, fans will pay the $80 for a seat and $12 for a beer.

If the team in the building was 'our team,' more people would make the choice to spend the money, maybe. With all the other roadblocks in the way - traffic and parking and the fact that you have to get up at 6 the next day after getting home at 11 - that is becoming a less tenable choice to make. And every time former hockey fans choose not to, it becomes easier to choose not to next time.

Part of the problem is the death of local media. Time was you would start your day with a local newspaper, which would tell you everything about how the local team was doing. If people are consuming news now, it's rarely local, and so we're more attuned to what ManU or some US gridiron team is doing, Everyone is enthralled of TayTay and Travis Kelce or some nonsense. Who cares about the Flames, right? They're not on Good Morning America, after all. So if the Jets are left to complain that fans aren't coming to the rink, that's the only news people are seeing about the club, and that ain't helping.

The clubs' focus is on eyeballs, primarily, rather than butts in seats. If people are watching at home or visiting Insta pages or doing other non-butts-in-seats engagement, teams seem to be satisfied with that. That kind of engagement may satisfy the requirement for customers, but you need fans, which is still short for fanatics. You need people to be thinking "the arena is the place I want to be, because that's my team."

When Regina came to Victoria last year, it was the Royals only sellout of the year, IIRC. If I was the club, I would have had people wading through the crowd handing out single tickets to every kid under the age of 8 for a future game. If half of those kids use that ticket, they're going to bring at least one parent and possibly two. You need to be getting people used to the idea of coming to the rink: more than that, you need to make the team's success or failure a personal matter to fans.

My point is, there is this misperception that marketing is about spectacle. Everyone points to the NFL as the gold standard, but you can make things a spectacle if you only have to play 10 home games a year. For the NHL, if you want it to last, you have to make it about connection to the community. I'm not sure begging fans to come to the rink is the way you go about that.

 

[NextBigThing]

I’ve been saying it for years, but no one would listen. Winnipeg is not a major league market.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Yikes. Discretionary spending is drying up. What happens if they go through a cycle that isn't competitive?

Moving forward, this should be the final writing on the wall for any idea of a Quebec franchise. Nobody is dropping $1bn CAD for a money losing business.

This implies they are competitive now. They are not.

Talk all you want about discretionary spending, the fault on the attendance woes are purely on Mark Chipman. He has shown consistently that they have no interest in building a competitive team. A complete overhaul of management and a few years at the bottom would increase attendance, IMO. Then at least there would be hope for the future. Right now I and many others have no interest in the team. I was a season ticket holder from 2011-2015, regularly attended games until about 2018. But the Jets just aren't interested in building a team to compete for the Cup.

Chipman cares more that he has a GM that has proven he'll carry the water for an organization, as he did in Chicago helping to cover up the Kyle Beach affair. Winning doesnt matter. Cares more about appearing to care than actually caring with one of the least transparent charities in Canada that consistently fails to provide the benefits much less well funded charities manage. Cares more about appearing above the rest of the sporting community in Winnipeg, rather than the cooperative model embraced by actually successful organizations such as the Bombers and Goldeyes. Cares more about strong arming organizations and businesses than actually working with them as he did in his recent meeting with businesses last year. Chipman and the Jets make no attempt to have reasonable customer service to ticket, holders even season ticket holders cause he thought we'd all just be grateful forever the Jets returned.

This isn't about the community in Winnipeg or Jets fans. Chipman is batting a 1000 on how NOT to run a business. And Winnipeggers are waking up. Until that changes, this downward spiral WILL continue.

 

[These Are The Days]

Here's an idea for True North..Do your job and hire a GM that doesn't do nothing every year. Winnipeg owes no explanation. There's like 3 cities that would continue to pay for the kind of mediocrity the Jets trudge out every year.