Winnipeg Sun: Jets, Mark Chipman, call for help as attendance decreases

[Yukon Joe]

I think blaming attendance woes on Cheveldayoff and the on-ice performance is fairly laughable. The team has made the playoffs every year but once since 2018. I'm a fan so of course I want them to do even better, but they're record is pretty good. If Winnipeg fans are so fickle they'll only attend for a team contending for the cup then they might as well move the team, because that's just not realistic.

From second hand information I do think the team was a little bit complacent in the early years - they had a massive waiting list for season tickets, so it was no big concern is people cancelled their tickets (I was even on that list for several years). But little by little they whittled down through the wait list until now it's gone. They should have fought much harder to keep those season ticket holders while they had them.

Many teams have attendance issues early in the season - after all it's often said the season doesn't really get started until US Thanksgiving. But the continued success of the Jets does kind of require sustained near-sellouts.


I've argued before that something in the demographics that's happening - all tied to the baby boomers. They're Canada's largest population cohort. Attendance throughout Canada dipped in the 90s. Winnipeg and QC left, but certainly Edmonton and Calgary struggled mightily, and attendance slipped even in big markets. What's going on here - baby boomers are in their 40s, they have lots of commitments from work and kids and can't spend on things like hockey.

Move forward to the 2000s though and attendance is booming throughout Canada. Baby boomers are moving into their 50s and 60s. Their kids have moved out, their at the peak of their careers - they can afford hockey tickets.

As we get to the 2020s though - now the Boomers are in their 70s, living on fixed incomes, probably less likely to go out in general.

And why the focus on baby boomers? They were the last generation to be raised on over-the-air TV, where HNIC was the only option on a Saturday night to watch, and thus some of the biggest hockey fans you'll see.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Here's an idea for True North..Do your job and hire a GM that doesn't do nothing every year. Winnipeg owes no explanation. There's like 3 cities that would continue to pay for the kind of mediocrity the Jets trudge out every year.

The Jets have made the playoffs 6 times since moving from Atlanta, including last year. Mediocrity isn't the excuse.

 

[oldunclehue]

The Jets have made the playoffs 6 times since moving from Atlanta, including last year. Mediocrity isn't the excuse.

Ive been to games over the years, I really believe the Jets org made blunders with players that were fan favorites. The live entertainment value just isn't there at the arena, hockey as a whole has become much more skilled and fast in the last 20 years, but with that you lose out on the big hits, fights, brawls, rivalries, personalities etc etc. I get its all for the health of the players but at the end of it all it hurts the entertainment value to fans.

Cost of food, beer, parking and location of the rink for me is an issue. Its in the heart of downtown Winnipeg, parking 10 blocks away and having to walk through the area isn't for my family and I. Plus add in ticket cost, food, drinks, likely some swag, you are in $1000 bucks to go to a game for a fmaily of 4....and its not really a fun experience.

But as far as player wise:

1. Byfulglien put butts in the seats, he was a fun loving, happy guy on the ice, played a fun version of hockey and if he laid a hit...it was always good. He was what fans loved and would himself put butts in the seats. Still no clue what happened but obviously the GM didn't do his due diligence over summer and an injury wasn't properly handled by both team and player. Letting him walk without any goodbye to the fans, celebration of his career etc....pisses me off.

2. Tanev....he was a heart and soul speedy work hard guy that never gave up and always fun to watch. He was small but feisty and fans loved watching him. Let him walk to free agency.

3. Laine: as much as he could be frustrating to watch, he was dynamic to watch, hands, shot, big. Trading him for the likes of Dubois who is known to be very fickle and demanding wasn't a great trade.

In todays economy with cost of living and inflation....people are strapped in regards to entertainment dollars. I for one would much rather save $1000 bucks and stay home, watch some of a game on TV and do other stuff than go to any NHL game...let alone a game in downtown Winnipeg.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Plus add in ticket cost, food, drinks, likely some swag, you are in $1000 bucks to go to a game for a fmaily of 4....and its not really a fun experience.

I just want to touch on this - going to an NHL game really isn't a family event, and hasn't been for a long time. It's something you take your buddies to, or your SO/Partner, etc.

I do usually take my whole family to a game once per year - a pre-season game where people are almost giving tickets away. But otherwise I've never taken the whole family.

 

[Tawnos]

The Jets have made the playoffs 6 times since moving from Atlanta, including last year. Mediocrity isn't the excuse.

Funny, mediocre is exactly how I would describe their last 5 years. Their league finishes are 10, 20, 14, 19, 14. Their points % is 18th over that whole stretch. They've won a single playoff round.

Mediocre isn't reserved for missing the playoffs. A team finishing 14th is pretty much as mediocre as a team finishing 18th.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Funny, mediocre is exactly how I would describe their last 5 years. Their league finishes are 10, 20, 14, 19, 14. Their points % is 18th over that whole stretch. They've won a single playoff round.

Mediocre isn't reserved for missing the playoffs. A team finishing 14th is pretty much as mediocre as a team finishing 18th.

Eh...They've made the conference semi's as well as the finals over the last few years. I don't see that as any excuse as to why they're not selling out a 15K arena.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Ive been to games over the years, I really believe the Jets org made blunders with players that were fan favorites. The live entertainment value just isn't there at the arena, hockey as a whole has become much more skilled and fast in the last 20 years, but with that you lose out on the big hits, fights, brawls, rivalries, personalities etc etc. I get its all for the health of the players but at the end of it all it hurts the entertainment value to fans.

Cost of food, beer, parking and location of the rink for me is an issue. Its in the heart of downtown Winnipeg, parking 10 blocks away and having to walk through the area isn't for my family and I. Plus add in ticket cost, food, drinks, likely some swag, you are in $1000 bucks to go to a game for a fmaily of 4....and its not really a fun experience.

But as far as player wise:

1. Byfulglien put butts in the seats, he was a fun loving, happy guy on the ice, played a fun version of hockey and if he laid a hit...it was always good. He was what fans loved and would himself put butts in the seats. Still no clue what happened but obviously the GM didn't do his due diligence over summer and an injury wasn't properly handled by both team and player. Letting him walk without any goodbye to the fans, celebration of his career etc....pisses me off.

2. Tanev....he was a heart and soul speedy work hard guy that never gave up and always fun to watch. He was small but feisty and fans loved watching him. Let him walk to free agency.

3. Laine: as much as he could be frustrating to watch, he was dynamic to watch, hands, shot, big. Trading him for the likes of Dubois who is known to be very fickle and demanding wasn't a great trade.

In todays economy with cost of living and inflation....people are strapped in regards to entertainment dollars. I for one would much rather save $1000 bucks and stay home, watch some of a game on TV and do other stuff than go to any NHL game...let alone a game in downtown Winnipeg.

I mean, every team deals with getting rid of leaders. Here in Atlanta, people were/are pissed we lost Freddy Freeman and Dansby over a 2-year span. That said, I can't see that as a major excuse for major declines in attendance. With the economy, I think that's closer to my point of the dangers of being a small market rather than a bad economy in a vacuum.

As I said on the NHL forum, Winnipeg isn't going anywhere. They're fine and owned by billionaires. My only point is to back what I've been saying in the Atlanta threads. That's these smaller markets with only minor growth are much bigger gambles from a population and corporate $$ standpoint than a much larger, growing metro like most Sunbelt teams. I don't think anyone argues that there aren't monster hockey fans in Winnipeg, but without population growth and corporate $$, that fandom alone isn't going to pay the bills.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Funny, mediocre is exactly how I would describe their last 5 years. Their league finishes are 10, 20, 14, 19, 14. Their points % is 18th over that whole stretch. They've won a single playoff round.

Mediocre isn't reserved for missing the playoffs. A team finishing 14th is pretty much as mediocre as a team finishing 18th.

First of all you're cherry-picking your dates because 6 years ago they went to the conference final and finished second in the league.

But more than that...

The longer a time period to you go all teams are going to trend towards being around .500. Every game has a winner and a loser. If the only way the Jets can survive is by being a top-10 team in the league every year then start warming up the moving vans.

 

[Tawnos]

Eh...They've made the conference semi's as well as the finals over the last few years. I don't see that as any excuse as to why they're not selling out a 15K arena.

Those three playoff series you reference are their only series wins in the 12 years they've existed.

You can sell people on a rebuild, but it's harder to sell people on being mired in the middle almost continuously for over a decade. They had one year where they were a top team. 114 points and a WCF appearance. That's it in 12 years.

 

[oldunclehue]

I just want to touch on this - going to an NHL game really isn't a family event, and hasn't been for a long time. It's something you take your buddies to, or your SO/Partner, etc.

I do usually take my whole family to a game once per year - a pre-season game where people are almost giving tickets away. But otherwise I've never taken the whole family.

When I was a kid it was a family event, many upon many of my friends and family members all plan and take their kids to NHL games when they could. I'm sorry...but who are you to say its not a family event and hasn't been for a long time?

So is the NHL marketing the game towards just a group of buddies or couples going to the game, because whenever I've gone I've seen tonnes of kids with their families at games.

 

[MMC]

Said it in the other thread, but when I look on the secondary market I see plenty of tickets in the $25-30 USD range so I don’t see how ticket prices can be used as an excuse…

 

[oldunclehue]

I mean, every team deals with getting rid of leaders. Here in Atlanta, people were/are pissed we lost Freddy Freeman and Dansby over a 2-year span. That said, I can't see that as a major excuse for major declines in attendance. With the economy, I think that's closer to my point of the dangers of being a small market rather than a bad economy in a vacuum.

As I said on the NHL forum, Winnipeg isn't going anywhere. They're fine and owned by billionaires. My only point is to back what I've been saying in the Atlanta threads. That's these smaller markets with only minor growth are much bigger gambles from a population and corporate $$ standpoint than a much larger, growing metro like most Sunbelt teams. I don't think anyone argues that there aren't monster hockey fans in Winnipeg, but without population growth and corporate $$, that fandom alone isn't going to pay the bills.

I am not talking about leaders...I am talking about identity players that fans can really associate with. Winnipeg is a working mans city still, we aren't a major centre that has multiple billion dollar companies headquarters or even a tonne of international companies. Fans cheer for teams but identify with players on those rosters as well. Losing out on 3 fan favorites with nothing to really show for any of them does truly affect fans interest in the games.

Our current big players have also not really identified with fans in anyway, Sheifele whines and is negative, Helle is demanding and wants everything for him, I'd say the one fans like the most in regards to style of play and entertainment is our Captain but hes not a very big personality either.

FANS will be way more excited to go to games if they know that the players they want to see are there. I along with most of the guys I know who are big hockey guys have all said the same thing, there is nothing exciting about the Jets, no players people talk about or want to see.

The Jets very well may leave again, David THOMSON is an investment owner in the team, Chipman is the real owner. If the team begins to lose money year over year over year, Thomson isn't going to see it as an investment but more so a loss, and if he says he wants to part ways, Chipman can't float the cost of the value for the team. And Winnipeg doesn't have anyone else with that cash.

 

[Tawnos]

First of all you're cherry-picking your dates because 6 years ago they went to the conference final and finished second in the league.

But more than that...

The longer a time period to you go all teams are going to trend towards being around .500. Every game has a winner and a loser. If the only way the Jets can survive is by being a top-10 team in the league every year then start warming up the moving vans.

5 years is not a long enough period of time to see a significant regression to the mean. The top-10 teams over the last 5 years in w% are a pretty good representation of the top-10 teams over the last 5 years. A couple are sliding out and a couple are climbing in, but climbing in doesn't represent what the Jets are doing.

The Jets don't need to be a top-10 team in the league every season, but they've only managed that "feat" twice in 12 years. The Jets have never had a good run of a few years where they were a top team. Teams can live off a legitimate multi-year Cup window for years and years after. Look at Nashville. To never have one? It's a killer.

I'm not saying it's the only factor here, but I think ignoring the on-ice results misses a big part of what's gone on.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Those three playoff series you reference are their only series wins in the 12 years they've existed.

You can sell people on a rebuild, but it's harder to sell people on being mired in the middle almost continuously for over a decade. They had one year where they were a top team. 114 points and a WCF appearance. That's it in 12 years.

32 team league (just to make math simpler). 16 teams make the playoffs. So you'd expect the Jets to make the playoffs six times. They did.

6 first round appearances you'd expect them to win 3 - they've won 2.

Two second round appearances you'd expect them to win 1 - they did.

1 third round appearance is 50/50 - they lost.

Jets are pretty much where you'd expect them to be after 12 years.

 

[Tawnos]

32 team league (just to make math simpler). 16 teams make the playoffs. So you'd expect the Jets to make the playoffs six times. They did.

6 first round appearances you'd expect them to win 3 - they've won 2.

Two second round appearances you'd expect them to win 1 - they did.

1 third round appearance is 50/50 - they lost.

Jets are pretty much where you'd expect them to be after 12 years.

That's not how probabilities work. Teams don't have equal rosters.

A team could make the playoffs every year as the 16th best team in the league. They're not likely to win half of the series they're in just because they got in.

Frankly, I'm a little miffed that anyone is arguing that the Jets don't have history of mediocrity.

 

[Yukon Joe]

When I was a kid it was a family event, many upon many of my friends and family members all plan and take their kids to NHL games when they could. I'm sorry...but who are you to say its not a family event and hasn't been for a long time?

So is the NHL marketing the game towards just a group of buddies or couples going to the game, because whenever I've gone I've seen tonnes of kids with their families at games.

I thought I was agreeing with you - that due to the cost of it taking a family of 4 to an NHL game really isn't a family event any more.

Yes, it was when you or I were a kid, but that was a long, long time ago and in a very different league.

I generally see very few kids at the games I attend.

Frankly, I'm a little miffed that anyone is arguing that the Jets don't have history of mediocrity.

I think you're missing my point - that over time every team is going trend towards being mediocre. Nobody can consistently be excellent every year. And relying on top 10 or top 5 finishes every year in order to sell out the building is a recipe for failure.

I live in Edmonton now, and while I can say a lot of bad things about Oilers fans, they were still selling out their building over the "decade of darkness" when their season was usually over by December.

 

[Tawnos]

I think you're missing my point - that over time every team is going trend towards being mediocre. Nobody can consistently be excellent every year. And relying on top 10 or top 5 finishes every year in order to sell out the building is a recipe for failure.

I live in Edmonton now, and while I can say a lot of bad things about Oilers fans, they were still selling out their building over the "decade of darkness" when their season was usually over by December.

The problem with the Jets isn't that they've "trended towards mediocrity" when you take a large sample. The problem is the mediocrity describes nearly all of their 12 seasons.

Sure, if you look at my Rangers record over the span of, say, 40 years they have an 88 point pace. That would indicate mediocrity. But when you take a closer look,

-They had an ok late-80s
-Contending early-mid-90s
-A mediocre (or worse) late-90s, early-00s
-A slightly better, but still mediocre late-00s (it was a decent team, but never a really good or great one)
-A contending early-mid-10s
-A bad late-10s, very-early-20s
-A fairly solid (possibly contending depending on what happens) early-mid-20s.

The Jets 12 years can be broken up into a mediocre period and a slightly better, but still mediocre period with a single fantastic season right in the middle.

The Oilers have a rich history, just like the Rangers. It's a little bit of a different proposition. Like I said, this isn't the only factor, but it's a factor.

 

[Rob]

Is the area around the rink considered dangerous? Reading some comments on Twitter that it is not very "family friendly".

 

[oldunclehue]

I think you're missing my point - that over time every team is going trend towards being mediocre. Nobody can consistently be excellent every year. And relying on top 10 or top 5 finishes every year in order to sell out the building is a recipe for failure.

I live in Edmonton now, and while I can say a lot of bad things about Oilers fans, they were still selling out their building over the "decade of darkness" when their season was usually over by December.

Having a brand new arena and two of the top 5 players in the NHL on their roster helps with selling the barn out.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Is the area around the rink considered dangerous? Reading some comments on Twitter that it is not very "family friendly".

It's downtown.

Any downtown rink is going to have some slight sketchiness to it. But between the crowds and the police presence you're absolutely fine on a game day (or at least - I'd be more worried about drunken rowdy fans than I would some homeless person).

I wouldn't necessarily recommend going to wander around CLC at night when there is no game going on however.

 

[MeHateHe]

Frankly, I'm a little miffed that anyone is arguing that the Jets don't have history of mediocrity.

If mediocrity was an excuse to leave the building empty, there would be a lot of teams without fans. The Sabres and Canucks have had teams for half a century and have a combined zero championships.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Having a brand new arena and two of the top 5 players in the NHL on their roster helps with selling the barn out.

Yeah, but I referenced the "decade of darkness", which is between 2006-2007, and 2015-2016, where they didn't make the playoffs a single time and finished so poorly they managed to get #1 draft pick 4 times. All played in Northlands as well.

 

[These Are The Days]

The Jets have made the playoffs 6 times since moving from Atlanta, including last year. Mediocrity isn't the excuse.

There's no way to convey that I'm not trying to be an argumentative shit head here so please take my word for it that I'm not trying to here.

Apathy is why teams lose support. The number of times a team makes the playoffs is irrelevant if your front office is just rolling the 2015 Red Wings experience featuring Connor Hellebuyck for the 3rd season in a row. The entire reason we hear anything about a team in Hamilton is because you've got 800,000 people in southern Ontario sick and tired of the Leafs having 100-110 point seasons and they refuse to move on from a core that can't win. So let's buy another one!

The economy is never going to stop being a problem. Just like most Canadian teams the Jets refuse to commit to a rebuild. But they're in their own rare company that they don't do anything to go all in either. They got Stastny for a playoff run. That's it in like 12 years. They need to be better if they want fans spending their money on them. The Jets can't just expect the fans to be the more invested party in this relationship while they do nothing in return

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Those three playoff series you reference are their only series wins in the 12 years they've existed.

You can sell people on a rebuild, but it's harder to sell people on being mired in the middle almost continuously for over a decade. They had one year where they were a top team. 114 points and a WCF appearance. That's it in 12 years.

Sorry, but I’m not buying it. Simply, they’ve been in Peg for 12 seasons now and have been a playoff team half that time. There is no way you can convince me that the reason they’re not filling the smallest (permanent) arena in the NHL is because that’s not a good record. No way.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

There's no way to convey that I'm not trying to be an argumentative shit head here so please take my word for it that I'm not trying to here.

Apathy is why teams lose support. The number of times a team makes the playoffs is irrelevant if your front office is just rolling the 2015 Red Wings experience featuring Connor Hellebuyck for the 3rd season in a row. The entire reason we hear anything about a team in Hamilton is because you've got 800,000 people in southern Ontario sick and tired of the Leafs having 100-110 point seasons and they refuse to move on from a core that can't win. So let's buy another one!

The economy is never going to stop being a problem. Just like most Canadian teams the Jets refuse to commit to a rebuild. But they're in their own rare company that they don't do anything to go all in either. They got Stastny for a playoff run. That's it in like 12 years. They need to be better if they want fans spending their money on them. The Jets can't just expect the fans to be the more invested party in this relationship while they do nothing in return

If making the playoffs 6 of 12 seasons is causing the fans to stay away, then there are bigger issues with that market.

In the end, apathy and economic conditions affect every team in every league. The real issue is market size. Larger metros don’t have to rely on the same fans and small corporate dollars year after year. Down economies and poor play is amplified immensely in small markets