Player Discussion: Winnipeg Jets Defense

[MelikeJets]

I like Miller but he is a bit slow.
Many of us have been dreaming about a top 2 d but they don't drop in your lap and developing one takes 5+ years. I don't think Heinola is an answer even in second pairing. Chevy has a tough job and only so many magic beans.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

Kova at 4x4.5 would be nice - he would essentially replace demelo on our top pairing (before everyone loses their mind DD was not a top pair guy when he signed here either)

Once the wheels come off they really come off. It's quite amazing. Thought it was maybe a Wheeler thing, but it's persisted through at least one season without him. Looks like we're in it again. Given enough time they can recover but the faceplant is always in the back of their minds it seems.

Would be wild if just one season of wheeler created permanently toxic locker room

 

[Crocket]

Apparently the Jets and Canucks were “very interested” in a Trouba trade but couldn’t make a deal work.

Trouba seems to be a TD trade candidate for a contender like the Oilers or Stars who would like a bit more bite on their D. Wonder if the Jets will have interest then too, as they can use more bite, and whether Trouba would want to come back. Not holding my breath.

Chevy was trying very hard to make it work. Trouba is one of his favorites. Chevy had Trouba's picture in his office since he was drafted.

Looks like Chevy missed out on Trouba.

Came down to one player. So close.

 

[Flair Hay]

Yeah with hindsight, we would have been MUCH better off keeping Kovacevic and passing on Schmidt (though I still think Kova is just your typical bottom pair guy).

But, when you think about the situation Chevy was in, he was just 2 years removed from a mass exodus on our defense, and we were really thin organizationally there. People were screaming about why he didn't do something to prop up the D after all the losses. I think he overcorrected by picking up both Dillon and Schmidt. One of the few times I think he panicked a bit and dealt from a position of weakness.

This is probably the best summary of the situation. Going after Nate Dogg was understandable for sure. To me it was Bones that kept Capobianco over Kovacevic when we already had Heinola and Chisholm in the pipeline.

I think the numbers suggest Kovacevic has been a top 4 quality guy everywhere he has been so far. His play with NJ is affirming what was already there in flashes.

 

[bumblebeeman]

Kova at 4x4.5 would be nice - he would essentially replace demelo on our top pairing (before everyone loses their mind DD was not a top pair guy when he signed here either)


Would be wild if just one season of wheeler created permanently toxic locker room

You could probably sign Kovacevic for 4 x 1.5 haha

Chevy was trying very hard to make it work. Trouba is one of his favorites. Chevy had Trouba's picture in his office since he was drafted.


Came down to one player. So close.

I wonder what that would mean for the cap tho. I guess no re-signing Pionk for sure.

 

[ps241]

Is Salo our new shiny bobble? I see you left Heinola out so I guess the sheen is starting to wear off?

I think they re-sign Pionk and I'm fine with that. I wouldn't be surprised if they re-upped Fleury especially if he becomes a regular and keeps playing the way he is. That could earn us some loyalty for a guy who's struggled to find footing in the league.

Morrissey - Demelo
Slamberg - Pionk
Fleury - ???

We can only hope and dream the Stanley experiment will come to an end. Miller I think will be gone especially if he's not hurt and we're scratching him which is wild to me. I'm not sure if Coghlan is going to play enough this year (or even survive waivers if we get bodies back) even though I've liked him in limited play.

I do think there's an opportunity for Salomonsson on that bottom pair, but the problem is it leaves the Jets pretty thin on NHL depth. I fully expect him to start on the Moose and work his way into some games.

I'm not giving up on Heinola - but he hasn't shown me a damn thing so far this year to indicate he can play in the NHL. I'm just trying to remember that he's been out for a year, hasn't played in the NHL for nearly 2 and has like 40 games total.

I hope he can stay healthy, the Jets give him a legit run of games, and a decent partner. However, with Fleury playing well, and their love affair with Stanley, I think unless Heinola can start putting it together soon he'll be on the outside looking in.

Could be another Sami Niku situation, I'm starting to get those vibes.

Lots to ponder.

Alfie has had a very nice start to the season on the Moose (one of the lone bright spots), sadly it looks like he will be done for a while which sucks. What’s with our D prospects all getting injured. I don’t really care if our D assets are home grown or if we have to trade for them but we need to get better or at least deeper. Samberg getting injured has exposed our lack of depth.

Right now we only have 2.5 top four D men. DeMelo I will call a .5 for now since he is struggling mightily for the first time in a Jets uniform. Even if he rights the ship we are still pretty shallow.

The Stanley saga needs to come to an end.

Heinola I will give it this season to see what happens when he is away from Stan. Not holding my breath because I see nothing that excites me yet.

Here is one thought, PLEASE TNSE use what ever draft assets we were thinking about burning at the deadline on finding solutions with term to rebuild our D core. Quit wasting draft capital for 5 games of hockey in the spring and start roster building with the same capital. ROI (Return on Investment) on lottery tickets and cigs is a dead end street. Here’s the kicker, if we add talent WITH TERM we get to use them in the playoffs too.

Exhibit A your honor: Think about it @Jet , we got Brendan Dillion for 3 Full seasons (238 games) and two playoff runs for 2 second round picks. We got Tyler Toffoli for a cup of coffee and 5 games in the playoffs for a second round pick, and a third round pick. Pretty similar packages and massively different value to our roster and organization.

ASSET MANAGMENT not fools gold end rant

 

[Romang67]

I don't think you should sign any player who's around 6 feet tall and plays a consistently physical contract to more than a 2 year contract after they're 30. Goes for D-men and forwards.

 

[voyageur]

Is Salo our new shiny bobble? I see you left Heinola out so I guess the sheen is starting to wear off?

I think they re-sign Pionk and I'm fine with that. I wouldn't be surprised if they re-upped Fleury especially if he becomes a regular and keeps playing the way he is. That could earn us some loyalty for a guy who's struggled to find footing in the league.

Morrissey - Demelo
Slamberg - Pionk
Fleury - ???

We can only hope and dream the Stanley experiment will come to an end. Miller I think will be gone especially if he's not hurt and we're scratching him which is wild to me. I'm not sure if Coghlan is going to play enough this year (or even survive waivers if we get bodies back) even though I've liked him in limited play.

I do think there's an opportunity for Salomonsson on that bottom pair, but the problem is it leaves the Jets pretty thin on NHL depth. I fully expect him to start on the Moose and work his way into some games.

I'm not giving up on Heinola - but he hasn't shown me a damn thing so far this year to indicate he can play in the NHL. I'm just trying to remember that he's been out for a year, hasn't played in the NHL for nearly 2 and has like 40 games total.

I hope he can stay healthy, the Jets give him a legit run of games, and a decent partner. However, with Fleury playing well, and their love affair with Stanley, I think unless Heinola can start putting it together soon he'll be on the outside looking in.

Could be another Sami Niku situation, I'm starting to get those vibes.

I'd be really surprised if Pionk and Fleury aren't re-signed in the roles they are in.

If you get a good run out of Fleury and Melo with Samberg out, and Stanley does his job, without costing the Jets games, I'd say going into the playoffs you are looking for #1RD placeholder until Salomonsson gets the job. A defenseman who can skate with Morrissey would make that pairing all the more dangerous. Keep Stanley and Miller as your reserves. Coghlan might survive the deadline if there continues to be an injury on defense, which is likely.

I'd put Heinola on the line for Maatta. I have a hard time seeing the coaches have enough confidence in Heinola to make him a playoff option, and that's where you want to change it up this year. Maybe have a different look going into the playoffs on the defense.

But short term the Jets have no d prospects on the left side. Kuzmin is too erratic to be a regular defensemen in the NHL, it seems. Freij could be 2/3 years away. So I would definitely want a LD who can play on his offside, but also be a strong side option behind Morrissey and Samberg, if Fleury gets the yips. As a way to keep Stanley down the depth chart, more of a home ice option.

Byram would fit that bill but the cost would be high I think. Probably too high.

 

[Flair Hay]

I'd be really surprised if Pionk and Fleury aren't re-signed in the roles they are in.

If you get a good run out of Fleury and Melo with Samberg out, and Stanley does his job, without costing the Jets games, I'd say going into the playoffs you are looking for #1RD placeholder until Salomonsson gets the job. A defenseman who can skate with Morrissey would make that pairing all the more dangerous. Keep Stanley and Miller as your reserves. Coghlan might survive the deadline if there continues to be an injury on defense, which is likely.

I'd put Heinola on the line for Maatta. I have a hard time seeing the coaches have enough confidence in Heinola to make him a playoff option, and that's where you want to change it up this year. Maybe have a different look going into the playoffs on the defense.

But short term the Jets have no d prospects on the left side. Kuzmin is too erratic to be a regular defensemen in the NHL, it seems. Freij could be 2/3 years away. So I would definitely want a LD who can play on his offside, but also be a strong side option behind Morrissey and Samberg, if Fleury gets the yips. As a way to keep Stanley down the depth chart, more of a home ice option.

Byram would fit that bill but the cost would be high I think. Probably too high.

I agree. Heinola and Maata la are probably pretty similar. Just Maata is 6 years or so further along in his development.

Heinola will still be a good player in the league. He needs lots of time and reps though and we don't have the luxury of giving him that given our team age, experience, and role needed from 3LD. Or at least don't seem to be looking to do that.

 

[voyageur]

I agree. Heinola and Maata la are probably pretty similar. Just Maata is 6 years or so further along in his development.

Heinola will still be a good player in the league. He needs lots of time and reps though and we don't have the luxury of giving him that given our team age, experience, and role needed from 3LD. Or at least don't seem to be looking to do that.

I'd say the difference between the two is size (Heinola is 25 lbs lighter), and Maatta kills penalties well at the NHL level. The only way to end the Stanley experiment is to have somebody who can be more effective than him in that role, while being more effective 5 on 5.

 

[Adam da bomb]

I'd say the difference between the two is size (Heinola is 25 lbs lighter), and Maatta kills penalties well at the NHL level. The only way to end the Stanley experiment is to have somebody who can be more effective than him in that role, while being more effective 5 on 5.

Can you end the Stanley experiment? I mean if you go by here it seems like it should have ended ages ago. If you go by coaches decision, I can't see an end.

 

[BoneDocUK]

Yeah with hindsight, we would have been MUCH better off keeping Kovacevic and passing on Schmidt (though I still think Kova is just your typical bottom pair guy).

But, when you think about the situation Chevy was in, he was just 2 years removed from a mass exodus on our defense, and we were really thin organizationally there. People were screaming about why he didn't do something to prop up the D after all the losses. I think he overcorrected by picking up both Dillon and Schmidt. One of the few times I think he panicked a bit and dealt from a position of weakness.

This is exactly what happened.

Alongside what we heard about Chevy having coveted Nate for a while even as he refused to waive to come here (not going to source this).

I also agree with @surixon that the org seems to have more trouble in IDing and then developing D prospects than they do with forwards and goalies -- and that there's definitely a bit more hesitation with some of their own prospects than with someone else's.

Or, of course, someone esle's grizzled vets.

 

[10Ducky10]

Maata is a big, soft inconsistent D man that I don't want anywhere near the Jets.

 

[Buffdog]

This is exactly what happened.

Alongside what we heard about Chevy having coveted Nate for a while even as he refused to waive to come here (not going to source this).

I also agree with @surixon that the org seems to have more trouble in IDing and then developing D prospects than they do with forwards and goalies -- and that there's definitely a bit more hesitation with some of their own prospects than with someone else's.

Or, of course, someone esle's grizzled vets.

To be fair, Chevy traded for Nate Schmidt in the summer of 2021

At that point, Kovacevic had a grand total of 75 AHL games under his belt (7G 21A). He was drafted as an overager with mediocre numbers in his 3 seasons of NCAA

To argue that he was ready for top 6 minutes at that point in his development has to have some hindsight involved

 

[voyageur]

This is exactly what happened.

Alongside what we heard about Chevy having coveted Nate for a while even as he refused to waive to come here (not going to source this).

I also agree with @surixon that the org seems to have more trouble in IDing and then developing D prospects than they do with forwards and goalies -- and that there's definitely a bit more hesitation with some of their own prospects than with someone else's.

Or, of course, someone esle's grizzled vets.

Do you think that there is a certain age when defenseman hit their peak, that is different from most players. Somewhere around 24 years old. I'd say that's around when Samberg really started to show his promise.

Kovacevic is a different example because he was passed over his draft year, spent 3 years in college, and then 3 on the Moose, with 4 NHL games under his belt. 25 years old, and not really showing a whole lot to that point. Maybe enough for the pressbox.

It seems like the Jets didn't want to rush Samberg to the top 4 until he was physically ready for it, and Schmidt was a good guy to insulate him with. Seems like they genuinely enjoyed playing together. Schmidt carried that added value of being a locker room guy, in a locker room that was obviously tense in the Wheeler/Buff days. Stastny spoke about it a little.

But to the point is the right age for a mature defense somewhere in the 24-33 range? And if you haven't matured enough by 24 to be knocking at the door, do you become expendable? And does that explain how guys like Fleury or Coghlan can make the team, but Heinola can't get started? Like Kovacevic and Chisholm before him. Though Chisholm didn't make it to 24.


If you have all these veteran forwards I think it's a natural inclination to have a veteran defense. Looking at Montreal with all those d prospects, they can't get it going because the leaders aren't there. So you need a mix.

 

[Buffdog]

Do you think that there is a certain age when defenseman hit their peak, that is different from most players. Somewhere around 24 years old. I'd say that's around when Samberg really started to show his promise.

Kovacevic is a different example because he was passed over his draft year, spent 3 years in college, and then 3 on the Moose, with 4 NHL games under his belt. 25 years old, and not really showing a whole lot to that point. Maybe enough for the pressbox.

It seems like the Jets didn't want to rush Samberg to the top 4 until he was physically ready for it, and Schmidt was a good guy to insulate him with. Seems like they genuinely enjoyed playing together. Schmidt carried that added value of being a locker room guy, in a locker room that was obviously tense in the Wheeler/Buff days. Stastny spoke about it a little.

But to the point is the right age for a mature defense somewhere in the 24-33 range? And if you haven't matured enough by 24 to be knocking at the door, do you become expendable? And does that explain how guys like Fleury or Coghlan can make the team, but Heinola can't get started? Like Kovacevic and Chisholm before him. Though Chisholm didn't make it to 24.


If you have all these veteran forwards I think it's a natural inclination to have a veteran defense. Looking at Montreal with all those d prospects, they can't get it going because the leaders aren't there. So you need a mix.

People may hate to hear this, but pedigree is a factor

The reason players get drafted where they do has a lot to do with just raw physical tools/genetic athleticism

There's a reason that Kovacevic got overlooked in his draft year despite being a big right shot defender. He never had the natural physical abilities that a guy like Samberg had

That's not to say that a guy like Kovacevic can't become a good (or even great player) - but he'll have to do it with hockey sense, willingness to play a system, coachability, etc... which takes time to develop

 

[BigZ65]

I agree. Heinola and Maata la are probably pretty similar. Just Maata is 6 years or so further along in his development.

Heinola will still be a good player in the league. He needs lots of time and reps though and we don't have the luxury of giving him that given our team age, experience, and role needed from 3LD. Or at least don't seem to be looking to do that.

I'm really not sure what anyone has seen of Heinola post-draft to be so confident that he is a NHL player. He is a 23 year old player, there's 30 guys out of his draft class with 100+ NHL games in already. He's not a young player. It's always been "wait and see."

Yeah his development has been harmed by injuries but I can't say I've seen even a flash that he can play at this level. He's had some sustained AHL success as a 21+ year old but never built out his game beyond his strengths. When he does get into the NHL he barely touches the puck (I give him benefit of the doubt that playing with the puck will be his strength, even as we never see it at this level), can't defend, can't win battles, isn't positionally sound, has below average speed and processing.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

To be fair, Chevy traded for Nate Schmidt in the summer of 2021

At that point, Kovacevic had a grand total of 75 AHL games under his belt (7G 21A). He was drafted as an overager with mediocre numbers in his 3 seasons of NCAA

To argue that he was ready for top 6 minutes at that point in his development has to have some hindsight involved

Nate was only playing right side because we had a ton of lhd... kova could have easily been the first callup instead of hanging onto beaulieu

We will never know wtf the thinking was... but no sense putting lipstick on a pig - we developed and then threw away a 6'5 rhd for more LHD depth - could have easily platooned schmidt and kova

Then we threw away an lhd with powerplay potential just to sign journeymen who have plateaued...

Really strange that the jets couldnt figure out a way to hide chisholm until rosters expanded - other teams do that

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

People may hate to hear this, but pedigree is a factor

The reason players get drafted where they do has a lot to do with just raw physical tools/genetic athleticism

There's a reason that Kovacevic got overlooked in his draft year despite being a big right shot defender. He never had the natural physical abilities that a guy like Samberg had

That's not to say that a guy like Kovacevic can't become a good (or even great player) - but he'll have to do it with hockey sense, willingness to play a system, coachability, etc... which takes time to develop

Drafted 43rd vs 74th haha... 'overlooked'... man you spew some bullshit sometimes

Pre draft ranking in the 80s for samberg and kova 150 - this is not a significant spread and neither were 'overlooked'

 

[BigZ65]

Nate was only playing right side because we had a ton of lhd... kova could have easily been the first callup instead of hanging onto beaulieu

We will never know wtf the thinking was... but no sense putting lipstick on a pig - we developed and then threw away a 6'5 rhd for more LHD depth - could have easily platooned schmidt and kova

Then we threw away an lhd with powerplay potential just to sign journeymen who have plateaued...

Really strange that the jets couldnt figure out a way to hide chisholm until rosters expanded - other teams do that

They had multiple forwards at one point too that could have cleared waivers on the 23 man. Right up to Kupari.

 

[Buffdog]

Nate was only playing right side because we had a ton of lhd... kova could have easily been the first callup instead of hanging onto beaulieu

We will never know wtf the thinking was... but no sense putting lipstick on a pig - we developed and then threw away a 6'5 rhd for more LHD depth - could have easily platooned schmidt and kova

Then we threw away an lhd with powerplay potential just to sign journeymen who have plateaued...

Really strange that the jets couldnt figure out a way to hide chisholm until rosters expanded - other teams do that

They brought Nate in specifically to play the right side like he did in Vegas and Vancouver. In fact, he started out on the top pair with JoMo IIRC.

I think in a perfect world, Kovacevic would have slipped through waivers. Maybe the org didn't foresee someone grabbing him, but I think they were more set on their right side than the left at that point. They'd really of had to see something in a guy with less than 100 AHL games and zero NHL experience to keep him in the pressbox

Drafted 43rd vs 74th haha... 'overlooked'... man you spew some bullshit sometimes

Pre draft ranking in the 80s for samberg and kova 150 - this is not a significant spread and neither were 'overlooked'

Kovacevic was not drafted his first time in the draft (2016). In other words, all 32 teams overlooked him 7 times

We picked him in after his D+1 year

Check your facts before being such a smug prick

 

[voyageur]

People may hate to hear this, but pedigree is a factor

The reason players get drafted where they do has a lot to do with just raw physical tools/genetic athleticism

There's a reason that Kovacevic got overlooked in his draft year despite being a big right shot defender. He never had the natural physical abilities that a guy like Samberg had

That's not to say that a guy like Kovacevic can't become a good (or even great player) - but he'll have to do it with hockey sense, willingness to play a system, coachability, etc... which takes time to develop

Yeah there are exceptional talents that can use their skillset immediately, like Makar, like Morrissey, like Trouba was when he was the first impact d-man the Jets drafted in the beginning of their rebuild of the defense. Salomonsson seems to be one of those types, if you listen to Arniel. But the process of growing into an NHL defenseman is longer than any other position it seems. And the Jets like to have a veteran influence on their development. For young defensemen the pressbox is not where they want to be early in their careers. Stanley is one of those guys who has developed into a pressbox player for more of his career, and thats not everybody who can sacrifice an opportunity to cash in on a short career, for a lot of defensemen...when the difference between AHL and NHL is often simply opportunity. Which young players don't control when drafted. You have to accept your limitations to be a Stanley type player.

For the Jets their talent pool is somewhat limited. I think it's hard to get those Boston university guys to want to spend their winters in Winnipeg. Michigan is on the border I'd say. Minnesota born players are much more acclimatized to the way of life here. With the new NCAA rules I wonder how many more CHL players jump their draft and go to college as a way to choose their own teams in free agency. At least Winnipeg has done well historically with Swedish born defensemen, so the future has potential.

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

They brought Nate in specifically to play the right side like he did in Vegas and Vancouver. In fact, he started out on the top pair with JoMo IIRC.

I think in a perfect world, Kovacevic would have slipped through waivers. Maybe the org didn't foresee someone grabbing him, but I think they were more set on their right side than the left at that point. They'd really of had to see something in a guy with less than 100 AHL games and zero NHL experience to keep him in the pressbox


Kovacevic was not drafted his first time in the draft (2016). In other words, all 32 teams overlooked him 7 times

We picked him in after his D+1 year

Check your facts before being such a smug prick

I just want us to win today. Our losing streak coincided with you and me getting along. So f*** you.

 

[voyageur]

I just want us to win today. Our losing streak coincided with you and me getting along. So f*** you.

I feel like any dispute between @Wolf House and @Buffdog should be resolved with pictures of their dogs, and if either have no dogs but cats they should change their user name.

 

[Flair Hay]

Nate was only playing right side because we had a ton of lhd... kova could have easily been the first callup instead of hanging onto beaulieu

We will never know wtf the thinking was... but no sense putting lipstick on a pig - we developed and then threw away a 6'5 rhd for more LHD depth - could have easily platooned schmidt and kova

Then we threw away an lhd with powerplay potential just to sign journeymen who have plateaued...

Really strange that the jets couldnt figure out a way to hide chisholm until rosters expanded - other teams do that

A lot of guys just need time and the right environment. Some teams just aren't able to provide the leash these guys need to improve as a luxury or a priority.