Player Discussion: Winnipeg Jets Defense

[BoneDocUK]

A lot of guys just need time and the right environment. Some teams just aren't able to provide the leash these guys need to improve as a luxury or a priority.

Agree.

I do think that a team like the Jets, who are at least nominally draft+develop, need to hit on more of their prospects than teams who have the luxury of bringing in top talent easily. Identifying D talent and then committing to developing and playing prospects, even through their inevitable struggles, has to be part of that process.

And I'm not even sure how much hindsight is in play here. No hindsight was required to see that a player like Chisholm was out-developing Stanley, outperforming him at the AHL level, and becoming exactly the sort of reliable PMD with some size (though not a ton of physicality) who could play on some special teams and be skilled enough to move up a pairing in a pinch. Plenty of posters here saw it, and the Jets' scouts and management, who are paid well to spot and develop talent, must have seen it.

Same with Kova. Sure, he was a late bloomer, but he also outplayed Stanley in the A and played a premium position.

I think it's as simple as Chevy having a panic moment and grabbing Schmidt as that smart, great-in-the-room vet who could anchor a pairing even at an outsized salary, and the org's usual tendency to slow-play prospects going full-blown with Late PoMo and Bones.

Alongside that was the peculiar belief in Big Logan as that strong, physical crease-clearing stalwart who could strike fear a la Buff and support a smart, PMD to shore up the top 6. The problem was that Stan never was and never will be that player, through no fault of his own.

Now we have noone in the fold to replace Samberg when he's out. Ville might become that but hasn't played NHL hockey in more than a year and had only a brief conditioning stint with the Moose before being thrown to the wolves with maybe injured Stan -- no way he's up to speed. Esp on his offside.

What about Miller? Who knows. Coughlan? Who knows. Maybe Stan and Ville will suddenly link up and flourish, and Fleury will find his 2nd pairing game. Whatever they're doing now doesn't look like a plan to me. Hopefully Salmo heals fast and is ready to step in before the POs.

 

[Bob E]

Came down to one player. So close.

Was that one player Trouba and his MNTC?

 

[BigZ65]

Agree.

I do think that a team like the Jets, who are at least nominally draft+develop, need to hit on more of their prospects than teams who have the luxury of bringing in top talent easily. Identifying D talent and then committing to developing and playing prospects, even through their inevitable struggles, has to be part of that process.

And I'm not even sure how much hindsight is in play here. No hindsight was required to see that a player like Chisholm was out-developing Stanley, outperforming him at the AHL level, and becoming exactly the sort of reliable PMD with some size (though not a ton of physicality) who could play on some special teams and be skilled enough to move up a pairing in a pinch. Plenty of posters here saw it, and the Jets' scouts and management, who are paid well to spot and develop talent, must have seen it.

Same with Kova. Sure, he was a late bloomer, but he also outplayed Stanley in the A and played a premium position.

I think it's as simple as Chevy having a panic moment and grabbing Schmidt as that smart, great-in-the-room vet who could anchor a pairing even at an outsized salary, and the org's usual tendency to slow-play prospects going full-blown with Late PoMo and Bones.

Alongside that was the peculiar belief in Big Logan as that strong, physical crease-clearing stalwart who could strike fear a la Buff and support a smart, PMD to shore up the top 6. The problem was that Stan never was and never will be that player, through no fault of his own.

I would say a big weakness of this front office is not acting until they are forced to act. They are very passive. But then at deadline time it's like HOLY SHIT WE'RE A PLAYOFF TEAM and then we can give it all away. That combined with a real struggle to draft legit NHL players basically since Laine is leaving me really concerned for the near future when Schiefele, Morrissey, Hellebuyck really start declining.

And what is it about Stanley? He fits an archetype they want. Big, bad penalty killer. 6'7 guy with a pokecheck and stick in passing lanes. But he's mostly causing PK's and watching them from the box because his brain and feet don't work at NHL pace. It's like they have a spot for the role they think he is and he's just stuck into it. Never even felt like it was "oh we could let Schmidt play out his contract and move on from Stanley" or Chisholm vs Stanley or Kovacevic (arguably a lot more of that sturdy bottom pair PK guy they think Stanley is) vs Stanley when they were making the roster moves.

And now we've given away all our organizational depth to keep Stanley. Who do we even call up tomorrow if one of our D can't get himself out of bed? Salomonsson as a rookie NA pro? We don't really have any of those AAAA players on D with the Moose to steal a baseball analogy.

 

[scarbrow]

I really liked what I saw from Lundmark and other than Salo he'd be my call up

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

I feel like any dispute between @Wolf House and @Buffdog should be resolved with pictures of their dogs, and if either have no dogs but cats they should change their user name.

Haha i have five dogs that travel with me in an F150

Edit: wtf did hf do to this pic haha

 

[Buffdog]

Haha i have five dogs that travel with me in an F150
View attachment 941610

Edit: wtf did hf do to this pic haha

Only 3 dogs but I also have 2 cats

 

[10Ducky10]

How many Jets's fans would sooner have Chisholm than Fleury?
How many Jets' fans would sooner have Kovacevic than Miller?

 

[Adam da bomb]

How many Jets's fans would sooner have Chisholm than Fleury?
How many Jets' fans would sooner have Kovacevic than Miller?

It really doesn’t matter as we have who we have.

 

[BigZ65]

How many Jets's fans would sooner have Chisholm than Fleury?
How many Jets' fans would sooner have Kovacevic than Miller?

Would rather have 3 of those guys instead of Stanley.

 

[Jet]

Only 3 dogs but I also have 2 catsView attachment 941627

That's it, your name is now Buffcatdog

 

[KingBogo]

How many Jets's fans would sooner have Chisholm than Fleury?
How many Jets' fans would sooner have Kovacevic than Miller?

How does this make sense as Fleury and Miller came well after decisions on Chisholm and Kovavevic were made, it wasn’t a choice between them. It’s like saying who would you rather have Nino or Harkins or Names over Petan?

 

[10Ducky10]

How does this make sense as Fleury and Miller came well after decisions on Chisholm and Kovavevic were made, it wasn’t a choice between them. It’s like saying who would you rather have Nino or Harkins or Names over Petan?

I meant today. Who would your rather have today?

 

[KingBogo]

I meant today. Who would your rather have today?

But that is a never ending game. Who would you rather have is the current better player. One day in the future you will want a 7th round pick over McDavid.

 

[voyageur]

I meant today. Who would your rather have today?

Rather have Fleury than Chisholm. He was a much higher rated prospect, drafted one spot ahead of Ehlers, so it may be a case of being in the wrong organization at the wrong time. I'd like to see the Jets add Justin Barron, rather have Miller as #4 over Kovacevic.

 

[TS Quint]

I meant today. Who would your rather have today?

It's a debate over sub $1.6m players it's a zero sum game. In turn longing for players like Chisholm and Kovacevic is also pointless. None of these guys make a difference.

 

[scelaton]

It's a debate over sub $1.6m players it's a zero sum game. In turn longing for players like Chisholm and Kovacevic is also pointless. None of these guys make a difference.

I don't see it as a zero-sum game unless you assume the NHL is a completely 'efficient market'. Players are mispriced regularly and bloom at different ages.

So, for example, in the case of Hayden Fleury, he showed skill (including p/game) at a Junior level that Stanley didn't but has not justified his 7th OA pick pedigree till now. Will he finally put it together? Well, he is only 28 and I like what I've seen--size, speed, footwork, and growing confidence, even on the second pair, all for $775K. Tools, meet toolbox.

Kovacevic is another clear example of a late bloomer, while Chisholm is a different case, as his skills were actually evident pretty early.

Smart NHL GMs are like smart investors--they and their teams look for undervalued assets and aren't afraid to hold on to them while others dismiss them. But they also know to sell their losers before they are worthless. I don't think the Jets have done this particularly well with their young D draft choices, Stanley being the prime example, but I do think that Fleury might be a winner.

 

[TS Quint]

I don't see it as a zero-sum game unless you assume the NHL is a completely 'efficient market'. Players are mispriced regularly and bloom at different ages.

So, for example, in the case of Hayden Fleury, he showed skill (including p/game) at a Junior level that Stanley didn't but has not justified his 7th OA pick pedigree till now. Will he finally put it together? Well, he is only 28 and I like what I've seen--size, speed, footwork, and growing confidence, even on the second pair, all for $775K. Tools, meet toolbox.

Kovacevic is another clear example of a late bloomer, while Chisholm is a different case, as his skills were actually evident pretty early.

Smart NHL GMs are like smart investors--they and their teams look for undervalued assets and aren't afraid to hold on to them while others dismiss them. But they also know to sell their losers before they are worthless. I don't think the Jets have done this particularly well with their young D draft choices, Stanley being the prime example, but I do think that Fleury might be a winner.

Come on captain hindsight. You are working off a pretty small samples to proclaim Kovacevic a mistake by the Jets. Let's not forget he played 2 years in Montreal as a 6D on a bad group which amounted to a $767k contract.

But you are just proving my point overall so I will allow it. Throw a Kovacevic away, pick up a Fleury or Miller or any other faceless defenseman from sector 7G. Who cares? That's how the league works. These players are interchangeable. You can pick them up every year for cheap. I'm sure if the Jets wanted Kovacevic back for $1m they could have had him. They and THE ENTIRE LEAGUE decided he wasn't worth that.

 

[Flair Hay]

Come on captain hindsight. You are working off a pretty small samples to proclaim Kovacevic a mistake by the Jets. Let's not forget he played 2 years in Montreal as a 6D on a bad group which amounted to a $767k contract.

But you are just proving my point overall so I will allow it. Throw a Kovacevic away, pick up a Fleury or Miller or any other faceless defenseman from sector 7G. Who cares? That's how the league works. These players are interchangeable. You can pick them up every year for cheap. I'm sure if the Jets wanted Kovacevic back for $1m they could have had him. They and THE ENTIRE LEAGUE decided he wasn't worth that.

3rd pair D are interchangeable in the sense that you can swap one for the other and the ilnegative impact is minimial.

That's what the discussion is about though. Is it a good thing to have a guy that is measuring as a top 4 player on the 3rd pair? Is it better to have him there than someone who measures as a 3rd pair guy, or worse?

Of course Kovacevic hasn't gotten much of a chance. The point is he has performed well in the minutes he got on a bad team and is now performing even better on a good team.

It's totally fair that Miller is one of these guys as well. I feel like Miller is more of an offensive guy where Kovacevic is more of a defensive D.

Just seems like we see so often how we are missing size on the back end. We are playing an AHL calibre guy to get size on the 3rd pair while we waived a guy who projected well at the time and looks to be living up to that ceiling.

We can say "who cares?" when we make a mistake or two. But when you have 4 or 5 "who cares" mistakes then you are starting to limit the ceiling of your team noticably

 

[Flair Hay]

I meant today. Who would your rather have today?

Maybe I'm alone but I'd say based on how they have performed in the NHL:

Kovacevic
Miller
Chisholm
Fleury

 

[KingBogo]

3rd pair D are interchangeable in the sense that you can swap one for the other and the ilnegative impact is minimial.

That's what the discussion is about though. Is it a good thing to have a guy that is measuring as a top 4 player on the 3rd pair? Is it better to have him there than someone who measures as a 3rd pair guy, or worse?

Of course Kovacevic hasn't gotten much of a chance. The point is he has performed well in the minutes he got on a bad team and is now performing even better on a good team.

It's totally fair that Miller is one of these guys as well. I feel like Miller is more of an offensive guy where Kovacevic is more of a defensive D.

Just seems like we see so often how we are missing size on the back end. We are playing an AHL calibre guy to get size on the 3rd pair while we waived a guy who projected well at the time and looks to be living up to that ceiling.

We can say "who cares?" when we make a mistake or two. But when you have 4 or 5 "who cares" mistakes then you are starting to limit the ceiling of your team noticably

So who are the 2-3 other "who cares" mistakes after Kovy and Chisholm? We have also got players that have proved to be worth more than their acquisition price. With strict roster limits there will always be players let loose that the organization would prefer to hold on to. It's good for the players as it allows them opportunities elsewhere.

 

[Channelcat]

We're talking about players who could be acquired for nearly nothing. It's absurd.

 

[Flair Hay]

So who are the 2-3 other "who cares" mistakes after Kovy and Chisholm? We have also got players that have proved to be worth more than their acquisition price. With strict roster limits there will always be players let loose that the organization would prefer to hold on to. It's good for the players as it allows them opportunities elsewhere.

It was OT but I'm talking about the 81-55 vs 27-55 lines, playing Stanley

These don't all move the needle much alone but add them up together and they hold the team back.

I don't want this to mean that I expect us to be perfect, or that we don't do great things sometimes, or that we can't make mistakes.

I'm discussing this with posters that don't think there was even a mistake made, or that it doesn't matter, call it hindsight, etc. All three of the former are false imo

 

[MardyBum]

We're talking about players who could be acquired for nearly nothing. It's absurd.

Like Namestnikov? Appleton? Nino cost nothing compared to how hard the Jets are for him. We have a collection of players playing above what they were acquired for. Dylan Demelo?

It's absurd to care about Kovacevic and depth players because at the end of the day, guys like Nino, Names, Demelo and Appleton are replaceable depth? Right?

Not saying you think this just making a point.

Maybe continuing to identify those players, like Gus Forsling, is the difference between whining about people commenting on depth players and whining about possibly repeating as a cup winner for a market like this?

The Jets have done a solid job at some of them.

 

[Channelcat]

Like Namestnikov? Appleton? Nino cost nothing compared to how hard the Jets are for him. We have a collection of players playing above what they were acquired for. Dylan Demelo?

It's absurd to care about Kovacevic and depth players because at the end of the day, guys like Nino, Names, Demelo and Appleton are replaceable depth? Right?

Not saying you think this just making a point.

Maybe continuing to identify those players, like Gus Forsling, is the difference between whining about people commenting on depth players and whining about possibly repeating as a cup winner for a market like this?

The Jets have done a solid job at some of them.

I'm referring specifically to Kovocevich, Chisholm, Miller and all the other depth dmen out there. What we really need is a legitimate top 6 guy.

 

[roccerfeller]

I'm referring specifically to Kovocevich, Chisholm, Miller and all the other depth dmen out there. What we really need is a legitimate top 6 guy.

Exactly. Sure it would be nice if Kovy and Chisholm were still around but they aren’t going to solve the glaring issue