Player Discussion: Winnipeg Jets Defense

[TS Quint]

3rd pair D are interchangeable in the sense that you can swap one for the other and the ilnegative impact is minimial.

That's what the discussion is about though. Is it a good thing to have a guy that is measuring as a top 4 player on the 3rd pair? Is it better to have him there than someone who measures as a 3rd pair guy, or worse?

Of course Kovacevic hasn't gotten much of a chance. The point is he has performed well in the minutes he got on a bad team and is now performing even better on a good team.

It's totally fair that Miller is one of these guys as well. I feel like Miller is more of an offensive guy where Kovacevic is more of a defensive D.

Just seems like we see so often how we are missing size on the back end. We are playing an AHL calibre guy to get size on the 3rd pair while we waived a guy who projected well at the time and looks to be living up to that ceiling.

We can say "who cares?" when we make a mistake or two. But when you have 4 or 5 "who cares" mistakes then you are starting to limit the ceiling of your team noticably

I’m not sure what you are saying…..Kovacevic got 2 years as a regular in Montreal, that’s more than a fair chance and the league decided he is worth $.767m. The league disagrees with your evaluation of him in the NHL.

I don’t know who said Kovacevic “projected well” on the Moose. Maybe I missed that but it seems like revisionist history. Or just more of the usual prospect pumping that happens around here that doesn’t pan out the vast majority of time.

People had to wait for a 30 game span in the 3rd year after leaving the Jets to cry they made a mistake? I guess on a long enough time line with enough players coming and going you can squint real hard to find a mistake if that’s what you need.

This isn’t about letting Kovacevic go. The Jets didn’t need him for the last two years. This is about choosing Miller and Fleury over Kovacevic in FA this year and peoples over attachment to draft picks.

List the 4 or 5 guys the Jets made “mistakes” with. Anyone making more than $1.5m currently? Anyone who the Jets haven’t effectively replaced?

 

[Adam da bomb]

I'm referring specifically to Kovocevich, Chisholm, Miller and all the other depth dmen out there. What we really need is a legitimate top 6 guy.

I mean kovavic is on jersey’s top pairing so I’d say he has grown into a legit top 6 just as much as berg. I mean it’s the past, but, disagree with your assessment.

 

[Channelcat]

I mean kovavic is on jersey’s top pairing so I’d say he has grown into a legit top 6 just as much as berg. I mean it’s the past, but, disagree with your assessment.

He's probably playing his best hockey right now, I guess we'll see if he can keep it up. It's interesting that Montreal didn't think they had a spot for him. Anyway if I'm being honest, Kovacevic is one guy I'd actually like to have and if NJD wasn't sitting comfortably in a PO spot he\d almost certainly be available.

 

[Weezeric]

I mean kovavic is on jersey’s top pairing so I’d say he has grown into a legit top 6 just as much as berg. I mean it’s the past, but, disagree with your assessment.

I guess Kovacevic is the first top pairing D to receive the 4th most ice time….

 

[Adam da bomb]

I guess Kovacevic is the first top pairing D to receive the 4th most ice time….

Boom, you got me there!

He's probably playing his best hockey right now, I guess we'll see if he can keep it up. It's interesting that Montreal didn't think they had a spot for him. Anyway if I'm being honest, Kovacevic is one guy I'd actually like to have and if NJD wasn't sitting comfortably in a PO spot he\d almost certainly be available.

I'm not saying we should trade for him or anything, that wasn't my point so much as replying to the post that we didn't have any legit top 6 slip through our hands. I am not lamenting the past or suggesting trading for any of our old guys, just saying yep that's one that got away.

 

[Weezeric]

Boom, you got me there!


I'm not saying we should trade for him or anything, that wasn't my point so much as replying to the post that we didn't have any legit top 6 slip through our hands. I am not lamenting the past or suggesting trading for any of our old guys, just saying yep that's one that got away.

Hah sorry for the sass

 

[Gm0ney]

I’m not sure what you are saying…..Kovacevic got 2 years as a regular in Montreal, that’s more than a fair chance and the league decided he is worth $.767m. The league disagrees with your evaluation of him in the NHL.

I don’t know who said Kovacevic “projected well” on the Moose. Maybe I missed that but it seems like revisionist history. Or just more of the usual prospect pumping that happens around here that doesn’t pan out the vast majority of time.

People had to wait for a 30 game span in the 3rd year after leaving the Jets to cry they made a mistake? I guess on a long enough time line with enough players coming and going you can squint real hard to find a mistake if that’s what you need.

This isn’t about letting Kovacevic go. The Jets didn’t need him for the last two years. This is about choosing Miller and Fleury over Kovacevic in FA this year and peoples over attachment to draft picks.

List the 4 or 5 guys the Jets made “mistakes” with. Anyone making more than $1.5m currently? Anyone who the Jets haven’t effectively replaced?

Chevy signed Kovacevic to his current deal 3 years ago before he was picked up off waivers by the Habs, so it's not at all an accurate reflection of his current fair market value. He's going to be paid significantly more on his next deal. $4M-$5M range?

 

[Buffdog]

I’m not sure what you are saying…..Kovacevic got 2 years as a regular in Montreal, that’s more than a fair chance and the league decided he is worth $.767m. The league disagrees with your evaluation of him in the NHL.

I don’t know who said Kovacevic “projected well” on the Moose. Maybe I missed that but it seems like revisionist history. Or just more of the usual prospect pumping that happens around here that doesn’t pan out the vast majority of time.

People had to wait for a 30 game span in the 3rd year after leaving the Jets to cry they made a mistake? I guess on a long enough time line with enough players coming and going you can squint real hard to find a mistake if that’s what you need.

This isn’t about letting Kovacevic go. The Jets didn’t need him for the last two years. This is about choosing Miller and Fleury over Kovacevic in FA this year and peoples over attachment to draft picks.

List the 4 or 5 guys the Jets made “mistakes” with. Anyone making more than $1.5m currently? Anyone who the Jets haven’t effectively replaced?

He had 58 points in 137 games (0.42 PPG) for the Moose before we lost him on waivers - so not terible

In contrast, Stanley put up 32 points in 117 games on the Moose (0.27 PPG)

Chisholm played 144 games for the Moose and had 65 points (0.44 PPG)

Heinola: 159 GP 103 points 0.64 PPG
Niku: 114 GP 80 points 0.70 PPG

Chevy signed Kovacevic to his current deal 3 years ago before he was picked up off waivers by the Habs, so it's not at all an accurate reflection of his current fair market value. He's going to be paid significantly more on his next deal. $4M-$5M range?

I think that's a little high for a guy just traded for a 4th round pick, but GMs do love their 6'5 RHD

I certainly wouldn't pay him that. As I've stated, his numbers in the NHL aren't even comparable to Miller who is on a 1.5M deal

 

[Gm0ney]

He had 58 points in 137 games (0.42 PPG) for the Moose before we lost him on waivers - so not terible

In contrast, Stanley put up 32 points in 117 games on the Moose (0.27 PPG)

Chisholm played 144 games for the Moose and had 65 points (0.44 PPG)

Heinola: 159 GP 103 points 0.64 PPG
Niku: 114 GP 80 points 0.70 PPG


I think that's a little high for a guy just traded for a 4th round pick, but GMs do love their 6'5 RHD

I certainly wouldn't pay him that. As I've stated, his numbers in the NHL aren't even comparable to Miller who is on a 1.5M deal

He's crushing it on the Devils' 2nd pair taking the toughs. If he goes to UFA someone will pay him $4M.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

I think the Jets have had a problem drafting, developing, identifying etc. defensemen for a long time now. It's been over 10 years since we drafted a bonafide top 4 defensemen (Morrissey).

Kovacevic was dumb loss based on the team overemphasizing veterans in the 6/7 role, we've been doing it for ages. We trot out guys like Capobianco, coghlan, fleury, Sbisa, Beaulieu, Morrow instead of giving younger guys like Kova/Chisholm roster spots. Sure, most times this won't come back to bite you because 6/7 guys are a dime a dozen, but sometimes the young 6/7 guy actually turns into something more after he gets a chance (Kova). Could happen again with Heinola if we never give him a real chance to run with a 3rd pairing role and see what he can do.

There's also the whole Stanley debacle which is just inexcusable at this point.

 

[DRW204]

I think the Jets have had a problem drafting, developing, identifying etc. defensemen for a long time now. It's been over 10 years since we drafted a bonafide top 4 defensemen (Morrissey).

Kovacevic was dumb loss based on the team overemphasizing veterans in the 6/7 role, we've been doing it for ages. We trot out guys like Capobianco, coghlan, fleury, Sbisa, Beaulieu, Morrow instead of giving younger guys like Kova/Chisholm roster spots. Sure, most times this won't come back to bite you because 6/7 guys are a dime a dozen, but sometimes the young 6/7 guy actually turns into something more after he gets a chance (Kova). Could happen again with Heinola if we never give him a real chance to run with a 3rd pairing role and see what he can do.

There's also the whole Stanley debacle which is just inexcusable at this point.

Agreed.
However who here is legitimately knowledgeable enough or privy to details to saying is that is primarily a Jets problem or the prospect problem.

3 top 4 D in 13 years is brutal (morrissey, trouba, and I'll count Samberg now) for a team that pledges "draft and develop" as their mantra.

If these prospects they lost went on and been great elsewhere I'd def say it's primarily the Jets' issue. But they're a whole lotta nothings. Losing players that became bottom of the roster or nothings like Petan, niku, is whatever. Kovacevic is probably the first one that I'd say has put up good numbers in a higher depth charted role

 

[Buffdog]

Agreed.
However who here is legitimately knowledgeable enough or privy to details to saying is that is primarily a Jets problem or the prospect problem.

3 top 4 D in 13 years is brutal (morrissey, trouba, and I'll count Samberg now) for a team that pledges "draft and develop" as their mantra.

If these prospects they lost went on and been great elsewhere I'd def say it's primarily the Jets' issue. But they're a whole lotta nothings. Losing players that became bottom of the roster or nothings like Petan, niku, is whatever. Kovacevic is probably the first one that I'd say has put up good numbers in a higher depth charted role

I think part of it is just who's been on the board when the Jets have been picking.

I'd characterize Barlow, Ves, Chaz as 1st rounders who'd they'd maybe like a do-over on but when you go and look at who was taken after them, there's no impact D in the ballpark.

I'm excluding later round pucks who turn into gems because I'm not surenif there's any team who has a crystal ball and hits in those regularly

Even when they picked Stanley, there really isn't anyone in the next 10 picks who have had an impact on D

 

[Flair Hay]

He had 58 points in 137 games (0.42 PPG) for the Moose before we lost him on waivers - so not terible

In contrast, Stanley put up 32 points in 117 games on the Moose (0.27 PPG)

Chisholm played 144 games for the Moose and had 65 points (0.44 PPG)

Heinola: 159 GP 103 points 0.64 PPG
Niku: 114 GP 80 points 0.70 PPG


I think that's a little high for a guy just traded for a 4th round pick, but GMs do love their 6'5 RHD

I certainly wouldn't pay him that. As I've stated, his numbers in the NHL aren't even comparable to Miller who is on a 1.5M deal

His offensive numbers aren't, his defensive numbers are better. That's where his value is.

I mean I was asking on the Habs forum last year before we traded for Miller if a 2nd or 3rd round pick made sense for getting Kovacevic back. Of course I was told no by fans and he was traded for a 4th in real life. As far as the hindsight stuff goes (not referring to you here Buffdog).

I’m not sure what you are saying…..Kovacevic got 2 years as a regular in Montreal, that’s more than a fair chance and the league decided he is worth $.767m. The league disagrees with your evaluation of him in the NHL.

I don’t know who said Kovacevic “projected well” on the Moose. Maybe I missed that but it seems like revisionist history. Or just more of the usual prospect pumping that happens around here that doesn’t pan out the vast majority of time.

People had to wait for a 30 game span in the 3rd year after leaving the Jets to cry they made a mistake? I guess on a long enough time line with enough players coming and going you can squint real hard to find a mistake if that’s what you need.

This isn’t about letting Kovacevic go. The Jets didn’t need him for the last two years. This is about choosing Miller and Fleury over Kovacevic in FA this year and peoples over attachment to draft picks.

List the 4 or 5 guys the Jets made “mistakes” with. Anyone making more than $1.5m currently? Anyone who the Jets haven’t effectively replaced?

And how did that turn out for the league so far. Guys get overlooked all the time.

If he is underrated or under the radar of the NHL GM's that means he could he even cheaper, making him potentially more valuable.

I'm going to get jumped all over for this and that's fine. What are the chances the Jets will be a better team if they have Kovacevic in their top 4 instead of Pionk next year? I'd love to hear what people think.

 

[Buffdog]

His offensive numbers aren't, his defensive numbers are better. That's where his value is.

I mean I was asking on the Habs forum last year before we traded for Miller if a 2nd or 3rd round pick made sense for getting Kovacevic back. Of course I was told no by fans and he was traded for a 4th in real life. As far as the hindsight stuff goes (not referring to you here Buffdog).


And how did that turn out for the league so far. Guys get overlooked all the time.

If he is underrated or under the radar of the NHL GM's that means he could he even cheaper, making him potentially more valuable.

I'm going to get jumped all over for this and that's fine. What are the chances the Jets will be a better team if they have Kovacevic in their top 4 instead of Pionk next year? I'd love to hear what people think.

Re: Pionk vs Kovacevic

I think Kovacevic will be at least 2M cheaper than Pionk so it would have to be Pionk vs Kovacevic AND where that 2M was spent in terms of an upgrade on another roster spot

 

[Flair Hay]

Re: Pionk vs Kovacevic

I think Kovacevic will be at least 2M cheaper than Pionk so it would have to be Pionk vs Kovacevic AND where that 2M was spent in terms of an upgrade on another roster spot

Indeed

 

[voyageur]

I mean kovavic is on jersey’s top pairing so I’d say he has grown into a legit top 6 just as much as berg. I mean it’s the past, but, disagree with your assessment.

you mean 3rd pairing. Dillon-Hamilton, Hughes-Pesce. I love how there is a narrative here that he would be a better top 4 d-man than Pionk. Too much stats watching. I say Kovacevic would drag down the offense, which isn't great, and Pionk is responsible for lots of it, if you really watch the games.

 

[Adam da bomb]

you mean 3rd pairing. Dillon-Hamilton, Hughes-Pesce. I love how there is a narrative here that he would be a better top 4 d-man than Pionk. Too much stats watching. I say Kovacevic would drag down the offense, which isn't great, and Pionk is responsible for lots of it, if you really watch the games.

But a 3rd pairing better than miller.

 

[10Ducky10]

you mean 3rd pairing. Dillon-Hamilton, Hughes-Pesce. I love how there is a narrative here that he would be a better top 4 d-man than Pionk. Too much stats watching. I say Kovacevic would drag down the offense, which isn't great, and Pionk is responsible for lots of it, if you really watch the games.

Yup, Hamilton and Pesce on the right side with Seamus Casey and Simon Nemec on deck...it wouldn't surprise me if Kovs went to free agency.

 

[voyageur]

Yup, Hamilton and Pesce on the right side with Seamus Casey and Simon Nemec on deck...it wouldn't surprise me if Kovs went to free agency.

I think the thing about the Devils is they balance out the minutes on defense, no one is really carrying the load but everyone is chipping in. It's a different appoach than Winnipeg, with the protected 3rd pairings.

 

[KingBogo]

I’m not sure what you are saying…..Kovacevic got 2 years as a regular in Montreal, that’s more than a fair chance and the league decided he is worth $.767m. The league disagrees with your evaluation of him in the NHL.

I don’t know who said Kovacevic “projected well” on the Moose. Maybe I missed that but it seems like revisionist history. Or just more of the usual prospect pumping that happens around here that doesn’t pan out the vast majority of time.

People had to wait for a 30 game span in the 3rd year after leaving the Jets to cry they made a mistake? I guess on a long enough time line with enough players coming and going you can squint real hard to find a mistake if that’s what you need.

This isn’t about letting Kovacevic go. The Jets didn’t need him for the last two years. This is about choosing Miller and Fleury over Kovacevic in FA this year and peoples over attachment to draft picks.

List the 4 or 5 guys the Jets made “mistakes” with. Anyone making more than $1.5m currently? Anyone who the Jets haven’t effectively replaced?

Agree with the argument. Guys get lost to waivers all the time, you have to make a decision on a lot of guys with an unknown future as you can't hoard them away just in case. Personally I like waiver rules as it gives a player an opportunity somewhere else. As long as you don't lose a difference maker, which we never have, in most cases you are able to get similar players every offseason as they float around looking for work. Kovy just went for a late 4th last off season and will likely be available again this off season.

 

[Jet]

He's crushing it on the Devils' 2nd pair taking the toughs. If he goes to UFA someone will pay him $4M.

Yup and we know all gms only sign good deals

 

[Gm0ney]

Yup and we know all gms only sign good deals

Yeah a 4 x $4M deal for Kova would probably age pretty well.

 

[TS Quint]

Chevy signed Kovacevic to his current deal 3 years ago before he was picked up off waivers by the Habs, so it's not at all an accurate reflection of his current fair market value. He's going to be paid significantly more on his next deal. $4M-$5M range?

Yeah. Sorry my bad. He has the value of a 4th round pick a couple years from now. I don't think this changes anything. I don't know of any compareable trades where a player with the value of a $4-5m on a $.767m contract got traded for a 4th round pick a couple years away.

 

[TS Quint]

And how did that turn out for the league so far. Guys get overlooked all the time.

If he is underrated or under the radar of the NHL GM's that means he could he even cheaper, making him potentially more valuable.

I'm going to get jumped all over for this and that's fine. What are the chances the Jets will be a better team if they have Kovacevic in their top 4 instead of Pionk next year? I'd love to hear what people think.

I 100% agree. But the only thing special about Kovacevic in this thread is the team that drafted him.

Lots of guys could have been overlooked by the league, Miller, Fleury, Coughing, Beaulieu, Forbort, Dahlstrom, Bitetto....... your basically playing poker with these players discarding some and picking up others hoping to hit that inside straight.

You keep churing those semi NHLers over and over. Some times you get lucky and you might get a player who can fill in on the 2nd pair 10, 11, 12 years after they are drafted for a short period of time. That doesn't mean you hold on to every single player you draft just in case he has a good 30 games at some point in his life.

 

[Channelcat]

Chevy signed Kovacevic to his current deal 3 years ago before he was picked up off waivers by the Habs, so it's not at all an accurate reflection of his current fair market value. He's going to be paid significantly more on his next deal. $4M-$5M range?

I'd guess half that.