Player Discussion: Winnipeg Jets Defense

[Moloch]

So just to deviate from our usual discussion here,

What would our ideal D pairings look like next year?
Pionk - UFA
Fleury - UFA
so..

JMO / DeMelo
Sammy / ??? (salo???)
??? / Miller

I really want to see Salo in the show next year.

 

[DRW204]

All true - I agree with you - and they are likely playing as well as they ever will. The org might feel differently but that's their call.
I think it's last call for both of them - so they get that last opportunity.
Ville playing right or left - doesn't matter - his weakness has nothing to do with his skill level on either side.

I'd prefer to see Miller in the lineup - I've already stated that.
I'd also prefer to see this gong show end - it's a major distraction for the fan base

If it's last call for Stanley after 8-9 years, should it be last call for Heinola after 5-6?

 

[Adam da bomb]

So just to deviate from our usual discussion here,

What would our ideal D pairings look like next year?
Pionk - UFA
Fleury - UFA
so..

JMO / DeMelo
Sammy / ??? (salo???)
??? / Miller

I really want to see Salo in the show next year.

I doubt they are starting a rookie in the top 4. I imagine they resign Pionk for a few years so Salo can have experience as a bottom 6 before jumping up.

 

[Crocket]

If it's last call for Stanley after 8-9 years, should it be last call for Heinola after 5-6?

Heinola's first season was last year, but the injury. So from now unitl... maybe 3 years to see what he can do. Samberg is about 3 years older than Ville. VH is fresh off a bad injury / surgery. He needs some time.

DeMelo is going to have to move down, or be traded. He is really bad. You have to determine if Pionk is worth the risk, high pay, high risk second pair.

 

[LowLefty]

If it's last call for Stanley after 8-9 years, should it be last call for Heinola after 5-6?

Depends on what you think of Ville - does he have what it takes to play NHL hockey?
Will more time help him with his physical shortfall - if there is one?
This point has been discussed a lot - and it will depend on if they feel more time will help in this area (assuming it's an issue which I believe it is).

Have you watched him play at the AHL level? He played with an edge there and was able to knock/separate people from the puck.

That part of his game has never been present at the NHL level though. Whether that be a confidence issue or he just isn't able to translate that aspect I don't know. But he played a pretty chippy/physical game in the minors. Perhaps he doesn't have the strength to do so at the NHL level.

Either way the clock is approaching midnight with this player in this org.

I've already commented on how his game suits the AHL - it's the big step into the NHL that seems to be the challenge.

 

[DRW204]

Yo bro this is a hockey forum not a construction site. That's how the Oilers forum sounded like when I went on there. Keep it civil.

Yo bro, poster been here since 2013. I don't think they need a baby sitter.

Depends on what you think of Ville - does he have what it takes to play NHL hockey?
Will more time help him with his physical shortfall - if there is one?
This point has been discussed a lot - and it will depend on if they feel more time will help in this area (assuming it's an issue which I believe it is).


I've already commented on how his game suits the AHL - it's the big step into the NHL that seems to be the challenge.

And you can have the exact same arguments for Stanley. My point is we're going on year 9 of finding out, and year 10 of the Jets having their eye on Stanley. Would you afford the same leeway for Heinola? They're both similarly drafted prospects so this isn't comparing a 1st rd player to 5th. And I'm saying this as someone who high on either of them.

 

[raideralex99]

Hard for anyone not to agree that Miller and Fleury and even Coughlin for that matter are way better than Stan and tiny Heiny!

Both were awful against a weak Sabres forward group!

And the insane part they played Stanley & Heinola as a pair but what is more insane is they gave up so quickly on 6'4" Kovacevic (Top 10 shut down RHD) and Chisholm (good puck carrier).
How good would the Jets D be right now if they kept them and let Stanley & Heinola go?

 

[LowLefty]

Yo bro, poster been here since 2013. I don't think they need a baby sitter.


And you can have the exact same arguments for Stanley. My point is we're going on year 9 of finding out, and year 10 of the Jets having their eye on Stanley. Would you afford the same leeway for Heinola? They're both similarly drafted prospects so this isn't comparing a 1st rd player to 5th. And I'm saying this as someone who high on either of them.

I think the difference is that they desperately want Stan's size in the lineup.
Sure we can apply the same argument that they both deserve equal time and opportunity - but need also comes into the discussion and that's the difference IMO

 

[surixon]

I think the difference is that they desperately want Stan's size in the lineup.
Sure we can apply the same argument that they both deserve equal time and opportunity - but need also comes into the discussion and that's the difference IMO

They need dmen that can play effectively at the NHL level.

It's starting to look like Chevy needs to highly prioritize dmen at the deadline this year.

 

[voyageur]

And the insane part they played Stanley & Heinola as a pair but what is more insane is they gave up so quickly on 6'4" Kovacevic (Top 10 shut down RHD) and Chisholm (good puck carrier).
How good would the Jets D be if they kept them and let Stanley & Heinola go?

Chisholm doesn't kill penalties on the Wild and was a secondary PKer on the Moose, so unless Kovacevic was able to be effective on his offside, which seems like a stretch because he wasn't pegged as a great skater, there would still be the same LD hole with Samberg out. Could those two be effective 5 on 5? We'll never know.

I did see a stat posted yesterday that the PK was 13% more effective with Stanley out there than not out there. So something to consider. Because Armiel is going to want special teams to be good, and win games. Stanley was out there for a goal yesterday on the PK, not sure if he was the culprit in the breakdown, and Helly got beat on a shot he saw clearly. But that's I'm sure part of the decision making whether fans like it or not.

 

[Gm0ney]

Chisholm doesn't kill penalties on the Wild and was a secondary PKer on the Moose, so unless Kovacevic was able to be effective on his offside, which seems like a stretch because he wasn't pegged as a great skater, there would still be the same LD hole with Samberg out. Could those two be effective 5 on 5? We'll never know.

I did see a stat posted yesterday that the PK was 13% more effective with Stanley out there than not out there. So something to consider. Because Armiel is going to want special teams to be good, and win games. Stanley was out there for a goal yesterday on the PK, not sure if he was the culprit in the breakdown, and Helly got beat on a shot he saw clearly. But that's I'm sure part of the decision making whether fans like it or not.

If we're talking about this year's PK, he's only played 23 minutes, so small sample alert. And things didn't go great for him last night.

Also, he's one of the most penalized players in the league. He's currently 2nd in PIMs/GP, min 10 gp, 2:24 - so he's basically worth at least a penalty against the Jets in every game he plays. Anyway, that kind of limits his usefulness as a penalty killer if he's taking the penalties and therefore unavailable to kill them.

 

[BoneDocUK]

It's certainly debatable - and I understand your take.
Personally, as per my post in response to surixon, I don't think any number of games will help him with his major challenge.
Looking back at the years he has been around, it's the same issue - he's simply not built for NHL hockey.
I'm not sure more games will change that

Fair enough. I'm way behind on the games over here but both looked pretty awful last night. If Heinola can't cut it n the NHL, then it's definitely better to know and let him go in favour of Coughlan, who has looked very good in the A and in limited showings with the Jets.

It's hard to watch though, and makes the loss of Chisholm sting even more, since we'll have gone from having a glut of promising LHD in the system to none at all.

If Heinola is waived, I'd expect him to be claimed, so maybe he can pull his own KovaChisholm and find his feet somewhere else. Or not.

Stanley will then be what's left from that pool of four promising prospect D, two (and perhaps three) of whom will be thriving with other teams. But we'll have that big body, I guess. That's some legacy.

 

[surixon]

Fair enough. I'm way behind on the games over here but both looked pretty awful last night. If Heinola can't cut it n the NHL, then it's definitely better to know and let him go in favour of Coughlan, who has looked very good in the A and in limited showings with the Jets.

It's hard to watch though, and makes the loss of Chisholm sting even more, since we'll have gone from having a glut of promising LHD in the system to none at all.

If Heinola is waived, I'd expect him to be claimed, so maybe he can pull his own KovaChisholm and find his feet somewhere else. Or not.

Stanley will then be what's left from that pool of four promising prospect D, two (and perhaps three) of whom will be thriving with other teams. But we'll have that big body, I guess. That's some legacy.

I have said it before, but I think the org has some blind spots with regards to assessing d prospects.

They tend to have a better pulse on their forward and goalie prospects imo.

 

[Crocket]

Do you get a chance to eat breakfast before shoving Heinola's dick in your mouth?
First seasons was last year... Just lmao.

Hahah. That's so funny. I think you're projecting your own thoughts though. But ya he didn't play last year. Of course the Jets are gonna give him a chance. Samberg and Stanley have been given way more, so it stands to reason they're gonna give a 1st round pick some room to grow.

Also. If you're a Jets fan, wouldn't you want him to grow into a top 4 defenseman?

 

[Crocket]

Looks like Chevy missed out on Trouba.

 

[Cotton Eye Joe]

Haven't read through this thread so forgive me if I am repeating.
The only way the Jets advance in the playoffs is if they bring in 2 experienced D to go along with JoMo, DeMelo, Pionk and Samberg.

 

[ps241]

Haven't read through this thread so forgive me if I am repeating.
The only way the Jets advance in the playoffs is if they bring in 2 experienced D to go along with JoMo, DeMelo, Pionk and Samberg.

Mentally this core isn’t built for playoff hockey. They always fold like a cheap suit. It’s not one or two guys it’s the entire organization.

The group ALWAYS loses the last four in a row in a series. Glass jaw syndrome, very fragile emotionally.

That being said we are built better for the regular season which is close to 6 months and 82 games of hockey vs 2 weeks and 5 games in the spring.

I think they may have an anaphylactic allergy to White

 

[Whileee]

Chisholm doesn't kill penalties on the Wild and was a secondary PKer on the Moose, so unless Kovacevic was able to be effective on his offside, which seems like a stretch because he wasn't pegged as a great skater, there would still be the same LD hole with Samberg out. Could those two be effective 5 on 5? We'll never know.

I did see a stat posted yesterday that the PK was 13% more effective with Stanley out there than not out there. So something to consider. Because Armiel is going to want special teams to be good, and win games. Stanley was out there for a goal yesterday on the PK, not sure if he was the culprit in the breakdown, and Helly got beat on a shot he saw clearly. But that's I'm sure part of the decision making whether fans like it or not.

Stanley also puts the Jets on the PK at a much higher rate than any other player on the Jets.

 

[Gm0ney]

Mentally this core isn’t built for playoff hockey. They always fold like a cheap suit. It’s not one or two guys it’s the entire organization.

The group ALWAYS loses the last four in a row in a series. Glass jaw syndrome, very fragile emotionally.

That being said we are built better for the regular season which is close to 6 months and 82 games of hockey vs 2 weeks and 5 games in the spring.

I think they may have an anaphylactic allergy to White

Once the wheels come off they really come off. It's quite amazing. Thought it was maybe a Wheeler thing, but it's persisted through at least one season without him. Looks like we're in it again. Given enough time they can recover but the faceplant is always in the back of their minds it seems.

 

[ps241]

Once the wheels come off they really come off. It's quite amazing. Thought it was maybe a Wheeler thing, but it's persisted through at least one season without him. Looks like we're in it again. Given enough time they can recover but the faceplant is always in the back of their minds it seems.

I am at peace with it all. I wasn’t joking when I said the regular season really is where 95% of the hockey is played with the Jets each year and they are not a bad regular season team. That’s allot of entertainment from the fall, through our long cold winters, out to the spring. Like my golf game I am no longer worried about the destination (score), I am here for the journey.

 

[Hank Chinaski]

Mentally this core isn’t built for playoff hockey. They always fold like a cheap suit. It’s not one or two guys it’s the entire organization.

The group ALWAYS loses the last four in a row in a series. Glass jaw syndrome, very fragile emotionally.

That being said we are built better for the regular season which is close to 6 months and 82 games of hockey vs 2 weeks and 5 games in the spring.

I think they may have an anaphylactic allergy to White

And yet that fleeting glimmer of hope that “it’s gonna be different this year” keeps us coming back.

 

[ps241]

And yet that fleeting glimmer of hope that “it’s gonna be different this year” keeps us coming back.

Well now that I have thrown the cold water on the Jets I will say that the Capitals were the biggest group of playoff underachievers in the Ovi era with a great team except for one year. Now nobody seems to remember the loser Caps playoff chokers anymore.

For me I am not expecting anything from this core in the playoffs. IF/when they surprise me one post season I will be happy and enjoy the extended ride that season but it’s not that big a deal to me. I enjoy the Jets games when I get a chance to watch. I always like winning more than losing but I have really learned to chill out more.

I realized putting too much weight on playoff results was buzz killing it all for me. This is just a hobby and it’s suppose to be enjoyable on balance. So far it’s working out well. I watch way less hockey (due to other priorities) but I do enjoy it way more most nights.

 

[Bob E]

Looks like Chevy missed out on Trouba.

Apparently the Jets and Canucks were “very interested” in a Trouba trade but couldn’t make a deal work.

Trouba seems to be a TD trade candidate for a contender like the Oilers or Stars who would like a bit more bite on their D. Wonder if the Jets will have interest then too, as they can use more bite, and whether Trouba would want to come back. Not holding my breath.

 

[Jet]

At the time that we lost Kovacevic, our right side was set with established vets - Demelo, Pionk, and Schmidt

@WolfHouse has made the argument that they should have tried Kova on the 3rd pairing on the right side instead of going out and trading for Schmidt that summer - hindsight sees the validity in that point of view, but at the time, Kova hadn't shown much at the AHL level that would have indicated that he'd turn into what he has today

Yeah with hindsight, we would have been MUCH better off keeping Kovacevic and passing on Schmidt (though I still think Kova is just your typical bottom pair guy).

But, when you think about the situation Chevy was in, he was just 2 years removed from a mass exodus on our defense, and we were really thin organizationally there. People were screaming about why he didn't do something to prop up the D after all the losses. I think he overcorrected by picking up both Dillon and Schmidt. One of the few times I think he panicked a bit and dealt from a position of weakness.

 

[Jet]

So just to deviate from our usual discussion here,

What would our ideal D pairings look like next year?
Pionk - UFA
Fleury - UFA
so..

JMO / DeMelo
Sammy / ??? (salo???)
??? / Miller

I really want to see Salo in the show next year.

Is Salo our new shiny bobble? I see you left Heinola out so I guess the sheen is starting to wear off?

I think they re-sign Pionk and I'm fine with that. I wouldn't be surprised if they re-upped Fleury especially if he becomes a regular and keeps playing the way he is. That could earn us some loyalty for a guy who's struggled to find footing in the league.

Morrissey - Demelo
Slamberg - Pionk
Fleury - ???

We can only hope and dream the Stanley experiment will come to an end. Miller I think will be gone especially if he's not hurt and we're scratching him which is wild to me. I'm not sure if Coghlan is going to play enough this year (or even survive waivers if we get bodies back) even though I've liked him in limited play.

I do think there's an opportunity for Salomonsson on that bottom pair, but the problem is it leaves the Jets pretty thin on NHL depth. I fully expect him to start on the Moose and work his way into some games.

I'm not giving up on Heinola - but he hasn't shown me a damn thing so far this year to indicate he can play in the NHL. I'm just trying to remember that he's been out for a year, hasn't played in the NHL for nearly 2 and has like 40 games total.

I hope he can stay healthy, the Jets give him a legit run of games, and a decent partner. However, with Fleury playing well, and their love affair with Stanley, I think unless Heinola can start putting it together soon he'll be on the outside looking in.

Could be another Sami Niku situation, I'm starting to get those vibes.