Player Discussion: Winnipeg Jets Defense

[voyageur]

I thought Stanley requested a trade out of the organization at some point in time? Chevy must have talked him in to re signing and redacting his trade request.

I actually expect Stanley to be part of the Oleksiuk deal at some point this season.

He has certainly been a polarizing player on HF since the minute he was drafted.

My eye test tells me that he is not a full time NHL d-man. His role is best suited to eating popcorn in the press box in his D+9 year.

Do you think Oleksiak would waive his NTC to come to Winnipeg? I have my reservations about that one. Not sure what his connection would be to convince him to move his NTC to come here? Played in the World Juniors with Scheif?

Don't disagree with the eye test. With Stanley and Heinola signed for two years, seems like the debate is going to be a process. And Fleury has experience playing for Chynoweth in what seems to be a quicker oriented defensive structure.

 

[blues10]

Do you think Oleksiak would waive his NTC to come to Winnipeg? I have my reservations about that one. Not sure what his connection would be to convince him to move his NTC to come here? Played in the World Juniors with Scheif?

Don't disagree with the eye test. With Stanley and Heinola signed for two years, seems like the debate is going to be a process. And Fleury has experience playing for Chynoweth in what seems to be a quicker oriented defensive structure.

I guess the trade discussion is best suited for the trade thread. I only mentioned it because media had suggested the Jets interest in Oleksiak.

Let’s hope the D and the whole team looks better in Buffalo.

 

[snowkiddin]

I think at the time going into that season with Jomo, Dillon and 15 games of Samberg... yes, keeping depth on the left was a wiser choice.

At the time of Kovacevic’s waiving, other than Stanley behind those three of the left side, we had a recently-signed Capobianco, who played 45 games for the Coyotes the year before; Heinola, who had NHL experience (granted, not as much as Stanley), was coming off a solid AHL season, and also had first round pedigree; and Chisholm, who admittedly only had two NHL games to his resume but was tracking well and also coming off a good AHL season.

Behind Kovacevic on the right there was … Gawanke (who admittedly had a good AHL season, though was generally ranked below Chisholm and Heinola (and Stanley) who never amounted to anything, and Lundmark, a 21-year-old who was just coming off his first season in North America.

I can see some merit in keeping Stanley over Kovacevic at the time (first round pick, more experience, and he didn’t look bad a season before in the bubble) and I also believe they actually waived Kovacevic for Capobianco anyway, and not Stanley, since Stanley was ahead of Capobianco on the depth chart.

I just don’t think the depth (or lack of depth) on the left side was a reason in favour of keeping Stanley. I’d say the depth on the right-side was considerably worse, and the DeMelo/Pionk/Schmidt threesome wasn’t an impenetrable crew, never mind just one injury to the right-side forcing us to play someone on their offhand.

I think they waived Kovacevic because they preferred Stanley/Capobianco to him, not because of depth reasons, but because they thought Kovacevic was and would be a worse player than them. And with the benefit of hindsight, they were wrong.

 

[Flair Hay]

At the time of Kovacevic’s waiving, other than Stanley behind those three of the left side, we had a recently-signed Capobianco, who played 45 games for the Coyotes the year before; Heinola, who had NHL experience (granted, not as much as Stanley), was coming off a solid AHL season, and also had first round pedigree; and Chisholm, who admittedly only had two NHL games to his resume but was tracking well and also coming off a good AHL season.

Behind Kovacevic on the right there was … Gawanke (who admittedly had a good AHL season, though was generally ranked below Chisholm and Heinola (and Stanley) who never amounted to anything, and Lundmark, a 21-year-old who was just coming off his first season in North America.

I can see some merit in keeping Stanley over Kovacevic at the time (first round pick, more experience, and he didn’t look bad a season before in the bubble) and I also believe they actually waived Kovacevic for Capobianco anyway, and not Stanley, since Stanley was ahead of Capobianco on the depth chart.

I just don’t think the depth (or lack of depth) on the left side was a reason in favour of keeping Stanley. I’d say the depth on the right-side was considerably worse, and the DeMelo/Pionk/Schmidt threesome wasn’t an impenetrable crew, never mind just one injury to the right-side forcing us to play someone on their offhand.

I think they waived Kovacevic because they preferred Stanley/Capobianco to him, not because of depth reasons, but because they thought Kovacevic was and would be a worse player than them. And with the benefit of hindsight, they were wrong.

Yeahvafter reflecting on this a bit, it isn't really factual to say Kovacevic was kept for Stanley. As you mentioned, Stanley was staying no matter what. It was Capo that Bones kept over Kovacevic. Not sure if that's better or worse?

 

[voyageur]

Yeahvafter reflecting on this a bit, it isn't really factual to say Kovacevic was kept for Stanley. As you mentioned, Stanley was staying no matter what. It was Capo that Bones kept over Kovacevic. Not sure if that's better or worse?

Well after 3 seasons as a pro, Kovacevic will be a 27 year old, soon to be 28 year old UFA at the end of this season. Jets can bring him back, since they missed out on all the success he was due to bring here.

 

[Buffdog]

Well after 3 seasons as a pro, Kovacevic will be a 27 year old, soon to be 28 year old UFA at the end of this season. Jets can bring him back, since they missed out on all the success he was due to bring here.

Lost in all of this talk about Kovacevic is that we ended up this year with Miller, who has at least produced points at a higher clip than Kovacevoc has over their careers, and we signed him for nothing this off season although we had to trade for his limited services last season)

All that is just to say that bottom pairing D men are so interchangeable that who really gives a f*** anyway? Aside from the need to personally feel right about one's opinion?

 

[voyageur]

Lost in all of this talk about Kovacevic is that we ended up this year with Miller, who has at least produced points at a higher clip than Kovacevoc has over their careers, and we signed him for nothing this off season although we had to trade for his limited services last season)

All that is just to say that bottom pairing D men are so interchangeable that who really gives a f*** anyway? Aside from the need to personally feel right about one's opinion?

I always felt Arturs Kulda never got a fair chance to show what he could do. If the Jets hadn't picked up Grant Clitsome on waivers maybe he could have led the Jets to their first playoff appearance. Kulda and Mark Flood on defense, who remembers those days?

Yep Miller was a good pickup.

 

[Buffdog]

I always felt Arturs Kulda never got a fair chance to show what he could do. If the Jets hadn't picked up Grant Clitsome on waivers maybe he could have led the Jets to their first playoff appearance. Kulda and Mark Flood on defense, who remembers those days?

#FreeArturs

 

[DRW204]

Well after 3 seasons as a pro, Kovacevic will be a 27 year old, soon to be 28 year old UFA at the end of this season. Jets can bring him back, since they missed out on all the success he was due to bring here.

He's used as a top 4d and 2nd in total TOI. NJDs stats with him look v good too, why do you think NJD would not retain him, or he'd agree to come back?

 

[voyageur]

He's used as a top 4d and 2nd in total TOI. NJDs stats with him look v good too, why do you think NJD would not retain him, or he'd agree to come back?

I think he's 4th in ice time behind Hamilton, Pesce, Siegenthaler, and that was replacement level ice time he got with Pesce out, so probably finish #5 or #6. Which is where he has been in his pro career. I think there's a good chance he would come back, to a successful environment. Unless somebody gives him an offer that is too good, like Comrie with Buffalo.

 

[surixon]

I think he's 4th in ice time behind Hamilton, Pesce, Siegenthaler, and that was replacement level ice time he got with Pesce out, so probably finish #5 or #6. Which is where he has been in his pro career. I think there's a good chance he would come back, to a successful environment. Unless somebody gives him an offer that is too good, like Comrie with Buffalo.

I'd be taking the cash if I were him. He hasn't made much in his career.

 

[Flair Hay]

Well after 3 seasons as a pro, Kovacevic will be a 27 year old, soon to be 28 year old UFA at the end of this season. Jets can bring him back, since they missed out on all the success he was due to bring here.

I definitely wouldn't oppose to that. Seems like a right handed version of what we want from Stanley on our 3rd pair? Good size, mobile, plays most PK on NJ , basically not a liability in any way.

You can be dismissive about it, thats fine. Some were basically saying the guy has no value not long ago. And now he is holding down a top 4 spot on a good team.

Guys like this slip through the cracks. Just sucks more when you had them in your own back yard.

 

[voyageur]

I definitely wouldn't oppose to that. Seems like a right handed version of what we want from Stanley on our 3rd pair? Good size, mobile, plays most PK on NJ , basically not a liability in any way.

You can be dismissive about it, thats fine. Some were basically saying the guy has no value not long ago. And now he is holding down a top 4 spot on a good team.

Guys like this slip through the cracks. Just sucks more when you had them in your own back yard.

He played replacement level top 4, for Brent Pesce. Like Fleury is doing for Samberg, but not as well. Think it's Hughes-Pesce, Dillon-Hamilton-Siegenthaler-Kovacevic, two waiver pickups on the bottom pairing who have played well. Forsling was a waiver pickup. Fabbro is playing top 4 in Columbus over 20 minutes. You can find some good ones. Chisholm wasn't getting past Heinola in the prospect pool, and Stanley is a completely different type of player. Chisholm going to a team that needed some offensive help is a different scenario. Part timing, with injuries. Kovacevic made the ranks with his defensive game, PK. Losing those guys was a result of bringing in veterans on defense instead of trusting the process, and that's something every team has to decide how to balance when trying to create a winning team, but also a locker room that has the right the mix.

At this point Kovacevic would be blocking Salomonsson if he came back, so I think the ship has sailed.

 

[wraithsonwings]

The DeMelo slump/struggles make no sense to me. He has had a large sample size of playing predicable effective hockey??

Injured, perhaps? Arniel said a lot of guys are banged up.

 

[gojetsgo]

Injured, perhaps? Arniel said a lot of guys are banged up.

he sat out our only practice in the past 5 years for maintenance so probably

 

[Heldig]

No, that's not confirmation bias at all

Maybe prejudice?

Confirmation bias is when you cherry pick data to back up your opinion. Cognitive dissonance is when you ignore data that contradicts your opinion

In order to properly evaluate Stanley as a pick and a player, the best method would be to compare him to other players historically picked in his range (15th-20th overal)

Here's a list of the last 20 picks at 18 OA. Not exactly a bunch of superstars. Some panned out better, some worse

View attachment 939927

That's a great take, thanks

What i don't understand is why there's so much hate around Stan when every team whiffs on picks, even in the first round.

It sounds weird, but I actually think that there's a bias against Stanley because he's big. If he was a 6'1 defender with the same career trajectory, then i don't think we'd see the same backlash

Plus, everyone's favorite pet prospects on here have always been on the smaller side. I think of Petan, Nike, Dano, Chibs, etc... there's something alluring about cheering for the underdog I guess

I like to look at the next 3,4 5 players drafted after the guy we picked. In Stanley's case:

Cant really argue any of them were better choices.

Of course in hindsight there are better players later. That happens to every team every year.

 

[DRW204]

Is miller in the dog house? Felt like his game was solid to start the year. I guess Arniel was part of the crew that didn't play him last year too, if he is being sat just because. But he's better than heinola or stanley

 

[Flair Hay]

I like to look at the next 3,4 5 players drafted after the guy we picked. In Stanley's case:

View attachment 940713

Cant really argue any of them were better choices.

Of course in hindsight there are better players later. That happens to every team every year.

This wasn't in hindsight at all though. These were the two guys recommended instead before draft day by the writer of the article.

 

[Jets 31]

Is miller in the dog house? Felt like his game was solid to start the year. I guess Arniel was part of the crew that didn't play him last year too, if he is being sat just because. But he's better than heinola or stanley

I'm hoping Miller is hurt otherwise Arniel has some explaining to do .

 

[LowLefty]

Is miller in the dog house? Felt like his game was solid to start the year. I guess Arniel was part of the crew that didn't play him last year too, if he is being sat just because. But he's better than heinola or stanley

I'd assume they are still trying to sort out what the 3rd pair will look like - both Ville and Stan are coming off injuries so they are getting the ice time.
I assume Arniel / Chevy know what they have with Miller - I'd also assume he's back in soon.
I can't see Ville being earmarked for the right side, and Stan is playing because they want him in the lineup.
Likely comes down to one of Stan or Ville - and that's being looked at now.
But who knows . . .

 

[BobTheSolarsystem]

At the time of Kovacevic’s waiving, other than Stanley behind those three of the left side, we had a recently-signed Capobianco, who played 45 games for the Coyotes the year before; Heinola, who had NHL experience (granted, not as much as Stanley), was coming off a solid AHL season, and also had first round pedigree; and Chisholm, who admittedly only had two NHL games to his resume but was tracking well and also coming off a good AHL season.

Behind Kovacevic on the right there was … Gawanke (who admittedly had a good AHL season, though was generally ranked below Chisholm and Heinola (and Stanley) who never amounted to anything, and Lundmark, a 21-year-old who was just coming off his first season in North America.

I can see some merit in keeping Stanley over Kovacevic at the time (first round pick, more experience, and he didn’t look bad a season before in the bubble) and I also believe they actually waived Kovacevic for Capobianco anyway, and not Stanley, since Stanley was ahead of Capobianco on the depth chart.

I just don’t think the depth (or lack of depth) on the left side was a reason in favour of keeping Stanley. I’d say the depth on the right-side was considerably worse, and the DeMelo/Pionk/Schmidt threesome wasn’t an impenetrable crew, never mind just one injury to the right-side forcing us to play someone on their offhand.

I think they waived Kovacevic because they preferred Stanley/Capobianco to him, not because of depth reasons, but because they thought Kovacevic was and would be a worse player than them. And with the benefit of hindsight, they were wrong.

The problem is that its not hindsight - 6'5 rhd are the MOST rare commodity in the nhl and as we see from pionk rhd get paid...

Look at the guys we are carrying this year... pressbox kova at worst - team new schmidt hadnt played full seasons for a while before his first season in wpg

Capo or stan its weird because even back then the jets knew we needed size and were weak on the right side - schmidt-kova prob would have been a fan favourite

I'm hoping Miller is hurt otherwise Arniel has some explaining to do .

No one asked last night?

 

[Slimy Sculpin]

The problem is that its not hindsight - 6'5 rhd are the MOST rare commodity in the nhl and as we see from pionk rhd get paid...

Look at the guys we are carrying this year... pressbox kova at worst - team new schmidt hadnt played full seasons for a while before his first season in wpg

Capo or stan its weird because even back then the jets knew we needed size and were weak on the right side - schmidt-kova prob would have been a fan favourite


No one asked last night?

Do any of the Winnipeg media folks ask the "tough" questions?

 

[10Ducky10]

For all the Kovacevic lovers out there...he is an UFA after this season, what would you offer him?

 

[DRW204]

I'd assume they are still trying to sort out what the 3rd pair will look like - both Ville and Stan are coming off injuries so they are getting the ice time.
I assume Arniel / Chevy know what they have with Miller - I'd also assume he's back in soon.
I can't see Ville being earmarked for the right side, and Stan is playing because they want him in the lineup.
Likely comes down to one of Stan or Ville - and that's being looked at now.
But who knows . . .

Possibly but IMO it'd be beneficial to keep at least keep a vet or serviceable presence in Miller having to play with one of those two. Especially given Samberg is out, and pionk and demelo haven't been great as of late.

 

[Flair Hay]

For all the Kovacevic lovers out there...he is an UFA after this season, what would you offer him?

Kovacevic lovers, nice... that is a good question though.

Are we ready for the conversation that he may be a somewhat comparable player to Samberg based off his time in Montreal and limited time in NJ?

There is risk in that so I don't know I'd go there 100% yet. Still lots of the season to go. But what would you say a 28 year old RD with size, mobility, PK ability, 2nd pair calibre possession metrics and 20-30 point potential should cost?

DeMelo cost us $3M and change a few years ago? So maybe $3.5M is a price where there is still upside he outperforms it? And if he doesn't you have a solid AF 3rd pair PK guy.

I like Miller a lot for 3rd pair too but I think Kovacevic skill set is generally more desired and needed more specifically for our team