Player Discussion: Winnipeg Jets Defense

[Heldig]

This wasn't in hindsight at all though. These were the two guys recommended instead before draft day by the writer of the article.

I missed those names. Do you mean Garret recommended 2 players? Who?

 

[TS Quint]

I'd assume they are still trying to sort out what the 3rd pair will look like - both Ville and Stan are coming off injuries so they are getting the ice time.
I assume Arniel / Chevy know what they have with Miller - I'd also assume he's back in soon.
I can't see Ville being earmarked for the right side, and Stan is playing because they want him in the lineup.
Likely comes down to one of Stan or Ville - and that's being looked at now.
But who knows . . .

It shouldn’t be coming down to Stan or Ville at this point. It’s the saddest debate over two players Jets fans have had maybe in the 2.0 era. Both of these boners stink. I’d take Coughlin over either.

Morrissey-DeMelo
Samberg-Pionk
Fleury-Miller

Coughlin
Stan
Ville

Another 20 games and I could easily be putting in Salomonsson ahead of the bottom 3 plugs.

 

[LowLefty]

Possibly but IMO it'd be beneficial to keep at least keep a vet or serviceable presence in Miller having to play with one of those two. Especially given Samberg is out, and pionk and demelo haven't been great as of late.

I'd play it that way too - but I have a feeling they are at a point where they need to get this sorted out.
I don't think Stanley or Ville have any interest in the PB - both have shown they would rather move on if they can't get regular playing time.
If that's the case, I can see one (or even both) of them moved soon - before Samberg returns.
What are their plans with Fleury? Are they going to put the guy they chose as the top 4 replacement, in the PB?
Miller's the only righty we have and has played well enough to fill that role on the third pair.
Where does that leave either of these two if they are not interested in PB?
If there is any truth to that scenario, I can see why they are both in the lineup -

What's also interesting is how they are both playing right now.
Stanley has struggled - he seems to be over playing the physical card - taking penalties and probably over doing the after whistle physical play.
Meanwhile, Ville looks like he is not into it at all - he looks disinterested and that might say a lot about his impression of this "try out" -
just my thoughts - again, who knows

 

[surixon]

I'd play it that way too - but I have a feeling they are at a point where they need to get this sorted out.
I don't think Stanley or Ville have any interest in the PB - both have shown they would rather move on if they can't get regular playing time.
If that's the case, I can see one (or even both) of them moved soon - before Samberg returns.
What are their plans with Fleury? Are they going to put the guy they chose as the top 4 replacement, in the PB?
Miller's the only righty we have and has played well enough to fill that role on the third pair.
Where does that leave either of these two if they are not interested in PB?
If there is any truth to that scenario, I can see why they are both in the lineup -

What's also interesting is how they are both playing right now.
Stanley has struggled - he seems to be over playing the physical card - taking penalties and probably over doing the after whistle physical play.
Meanwhile, Ville looks like he is not into it at all - he looks disinterested and that might say a lot about his impression of this "try out" -
just my thoughts - again, who knows

They both look awful. Ville has been scrambling pretty much non stop and Logan is getting caught either puck watching or as you said overcommiting.

I can't help but think neither are in a potion to succeed right now. Ville as a new player needs some stability to find his feet and that isn't and has never been Stanley. Logan needs a babysitter to play his game and that isn't a rookie playing his offside.

 

[BoneDocUK]

I'd play it that way too - but I have a feeling they are at a point where they need to get this sorted out.
I don't think Stanley or Ville have any interest in the PB - both have shown they would rather move on if they can't get regular playing time.
If that's the case, I can see one (or even both) of them moved soon - before Samberg returns.
What are their plans with Fleury? Are they going to put the guy they chose as the top 4 replacement, in the PB?
Miller's the only righty we have and has played well enough to fill that role on the third pair.
Where does that leave either of these two if they are not interested in PB?
If there is any truth to that scenario, I can see why they are both in the lineup -

What's also interesting is how they are both playing right now.
Stanley has struggled - he seems to be over playing the physical card - taking penalties and probably over doing the after whistle physical play.
Meanwhile, Ville looks like he is not into it at all - he looks disinterested and that might say a lot about his impression of this "try out" -
just my thoughts - again, who knows

IDK, maybe.

Could be that he's playing his first meaningful NHL hockey in years coming off a serious injury that became another injury stuck on his offside with the team's worst defender playing his own worst hockey in years as the team itself tries to fight its way out of a brutal stretch in the schedule playing tired, error-strewn desperation hockey -- all the while knowing that this may be his last chance to make an impression before waivers/ a trade.

It's a long way from being given a proper long look with a sheltered return to NHL hockey that he (and the team/ org) might have hoped for. Stanley can't function without a stronger partner, and Ville can't find his rhythm with a chaos machine like Stan -- the coaching staff may not have been able to find a worse combo league-wide than they're trotting out here. Embarrassing.

I'm not sure it's disinterest. Maybe sheer exhaustion and emerging acceptance of his likely fate.

This cannot be a fun few weeks for anyone playing D for the Jets. Might be time to ease Coughlan back in, and not worry so much about having that big body in the top 6, however much time it spends in the box and/ or falling over.

 

[LowLefty]

They both look awful. Ville has been scrambling pretty much non stop and Logan is getting caught either puck watching or as you said overcommiting.

I can't help but think neither are in a potion to succeed right now. Ville as a new player needs some stability to find his feet and that isn't and has never been Stanley. Logan needs a babysitter to play his game and that isn't a rookie playing his offside.

Yeah, neither is doing well -
I'll also go against the grain a bit with Ville's development - I don't see playing him a ton of games to sort this out.
I think they know what the have and the weaknesses in his game are not going to go away based on playing more games.
IMO, he's too small / timid to play NHL hockey - it's not really something you can teach or even develop in some players.
If he had a ton of skill / speed to offset that issue, I can see them living with the shortfall - but he doesn't. There is skill there but not enough to make him an effective dman. I don't see how he will over come that.

 

[Flair Hay]

I missed those names. Do you mean Garret recommended 2 players? Who?

Debrincat at forward and Girard on defense.

 

[LowLefty]

IDK, maybe.

Could be that he's playing his first meaningful NHL hockey in years coming off a serious injury that became another injury stuck on his offside with the team's worst defender playing his own worst hockey in years as the team itself tries to fight its way out of a brutal stretch in the schedule playing tired, error-strewn desperation hockey -- all the while knowing that this may be his last chance to make an impression before waivers/ a trade.

It's a long way from being given a proper long look with a sheltered return to NHL hockey that he (and the team/ org) might have hoped for.

I'm not sure it's disinterest. Maybe sheer exhaustion and emerging acceptance of his likely fate.

This cannot be a fun few weeks for anyone playing D for the Jets. Might be time to ease Coughlan back in, and not worry so much about having that big body in the top 6, however much time it spends in the box and/ or falling over.

It's certainly debatable - and I understand your take.
Personally, as per my post in response to surixon, I don't think any number of games will help him with his major challenge.
Looking back at the years he has been around, it's the same issue - he's simply not built for NHL hockey.
I'm not sure more games will change that

 

[Flair Hay]

It shouldn’t be coming down to Stan or Ville at this point. It’s the saddest debate over two players Jets fans have had maybe in the 2.0 era. Both of these boners stink. I’d take Coughlin over either.

Morrissey-DeMelo
Samberg-Pionk
Fleury-Miller

Coughlin
Stan
Ville

Another 20 games and I could easily be putting in Salomonsson ahead of the bottom 3 plugs.

I think this is how it is likely to play out. Depending on if he add anyone on D around when Samberg gets back or not.

Fleury is nothing spectacular but he seems to be getting more consistent at being competent in all 3 zones. That's something we just can't say for Stan and Ville at this point.

 

[surixon]

Yeah, neither is doing well -
I'll also go against the grain a bit with Ville's development - I don't see playing him a ton of games to sort this out.
I think they know what the have and the weaknesses in his game are not going to go away based on playing more games.
IMO, he's too small / timid to play NHL hockey - it's not really something you can teach or even develop in some players.
If he had a ton of skill / speed to offset that issue, I can see them living with the shortfall - but he doesn't. There is skill there but not enough to make him an effective dman. I don't see how he will over come that.

That very well might be case but I think confidence plays a big role here and he's never been able to get confident at this level. That is one thing that might change with a good vet partner over a couple of weeks.

But yes I've come around to those concerns about his size. It is one of the reasons I was advocating Chisholm over him as Declan has the size, is a superior skater, and knows his game and plays it at the NHL level. He also doesn't have much less offense. I'm pretty annoyed we lost him as he's that bottom pairing puck mover we lack.

 

[Flair Hay]

I'm hoping Miller is hurt otherwise Arniel has some explaining to do .

Same thing down the stretch last year and into the playoffs... Stanley over Miller, Schmidt and even Samberg at points.

 

[Buffdog]

Kovacevic lovers, nice... that is a good question though.

Are we ready for the conversation that he may be a somewhat comparable player to Samberg based off his time in Montreal and limited time in NJ?

There is risk in that so I don't know I'd go there 100% yet. Still lots of the season to go. But what would you say a 28 year old RD with size, mobility, PK ability, 2nd pair calibre possession metrics and 20-30 point potential should cost?

DeMelo cost us $3M and change a few years ago? So maybe $3.5M is a price where there is still upside he outperforms it? And if he doesn't you have a solid AF 3rd pair PK guy.

I like Miller a lot for 3rd pair too but I think Kovacevic skill set is generally more desired and needed more specifically for our team

Miller has outproduced Kovacevic in terms of PPG over a way bigger sample size in the NHL and is solid defensively (with a sometimes sketchy first pass)

No idea why anyone would consider Kova an upgrade, let alone at 2X the cost

 

[Flair Hay]

That very well might be case but I think confidence plays a big role here and he's never been able to get confident at this level. That is one thing that might change with a good vet partner over a couple of weeks.

But yes I've come around to those concerns about his size. It is one of the reasons I was advocating Chisholm over him as Declan has the size, is a superior skater, and knows his game and plays it at the NHL level. He also doesn't have much less offense. I'm pretty annoyed we lost him as he's that bottom pairing puck mover we lack.

Chisholm was always the lesser Dman on the Moose but hebhad a simplicity to his game Ville has not found and needs to find to me an NHL regular. Frustrating indeed.

 

[surixon]

Chisholm was always the lesser Dman on the Moose but hebhad a simplicity to his game Ville has not found and needs to find to me an NHL regular. Frustrating indeed.

Yup, that was one of the reasons I had him over Ville. You knew the type of game you were getting. Ville can't seem to translate his game to the NHL. Declan as has shown can.

 

[Heldig]

Debrincat at forward and Girard on defense.

DeBrincat was a guy I liked. Would have been a bit of a reach at Stanley's spot. The killer is we traded the 36th spot to draft Stanley. Debrincat would have been available still.

 

[Gm0ney]

I like to look at the next 3,4 5 players drafted after the guy we picked. In Stanley's case:

View attachment 940713

Cant really argue any of them were better choices.

Of course in hindsight there are better players later. That happens to every team every year.

I don't think there's another player in the league who's been coddled and nurtured like Stanley in Winnipeg. If the Jets hadn't traded up and let Detroit take him, he'd have a stat line like Rubstov.

 

[sipowicz]

Hard for anyone not to agree that Miller and Fleury and even Coughlin for that matter are way better than Stan and tiny Heiny!

Both were awful against a weak Sabres forward group!

 

[Channelcat]

I missed those names. Do you mean Garret recommended 2 players? Who?

Niku

 

[Flair Hay]

Miller has outproduced Kovacevic in terms of PPG over a way bigger sample size in the NHL and is solid defensively (with a sometimes sketchy first pass)

No idea why anyone would consider Kova an upgrade, let alone at 2X the cost

I like Miller too. No argument on him being better offensively.

Anyone would consider Kova an upgrade, that may be a stretch. Maybe not...But an equal player that fills a more needed role on our team? Yeah, why not?

We are currently playing Stanley because we need his size in the top 6. If we inserted an actually good version of Stanley on the right side, we could finally make use of a PMD in that spot instead.

The cost part is important as well you are correct. Part of the reason some of us like Pionk but are apprehensive about re-signing him.

Who is more important? Samberg or Pionk? Debatable. I'd argue Samberg, but debatable. What if we could have a player comparable to Samberg for less than the cost of Pionk and fill the Pionk role with Miller, or Salomonsson? This argument about cost applies to that too, I feel. It's easier to find good PMD that can play 2nd PP with some defensive warts than it is to find actually good defensive defenseman that can handle tough competition. Especially RD.

I get why people may be apprehensive about rating Kovacevic so highly. But he is showing all the signs of a late bloomer top 4 on a good team RD that keeps getting better and doing well in every opportunity given to him. Would really like it if the Jets pursue bringing him back this off season.

DeBrincat was a guy I liked. Would have been a bit of a reach at Stanley's spot. The killer is we traded the 36th spot to draft Stanley. Debrincat would have been available still.

Yeah, there is a reason poor Stan has been so maligned from day one. Not his fault...

 

[DRW204]

Boohoo that neither of them are interested in the PB, how about play better, steal a spot and make it impossible for the team to take them out. Neither of them have done that, especially Stanley who is a penalty machine, along with a defensive disaster. I've also never seen a dman uncontestedly lose the puck as frequent as him. He's nearing 10 years with the Jets. And then you have heinola who has barely played in years playing right side nhl mins saddled with stanley.

Morrissey, Pionk are playing 25+ minutes. Not sustainable and may lead to injury. At least you can spell a few of those minutes with some Miller time rather than heinola and/or stanley out there.

I'd play it that way too - but I have a feeling they are at a point where they need to get this sorted out.
I don't think Stanley or Ville have any interest in the PB - both have shown they would rather move on if they can't get regular playing time.
If that's the case, I can see one (or even both) of them moved soon - before Samberg returns.
What are their plans with Fleury? Are they going to put the guy they chose as the top 4 replacement, in the PB?
Miller's the only righty we have and has played well enough to fill that role on the third pair.
Where does that leave either of these two if they are not interested in PB?
If there is any truth to that scenario, I can see why they are both in the lineup -

What's also interesting is how they are both playing right now.
Stanley has struggled - he seems to be over playing the physical card - taking penalties and probably over doing the after whistle physical play.
Meanwhile, Ville looks like he is not into it at all - he looks disinterested and that might say a lot about his impression of this "try out" -
just my thoughts - again, who knows

 

[Channelcat]

Hard for anyone not to agree that Miller and Fleury and even Coughlin for that matter are way better than Stan and tiny Heiny!

Both were awful against a weak Sabres forward group!

Salomonsson might be the fourth best d in our system right now, but I suspect they don't want to burn a year of ELC.

 

[Buffdog]

Weird that Miller has only had 4 seasons where he's played at least 60 games in the NHL (including only 2 over 70). Even in his 3 seasons in junior, he played 66, 55 and 56 games

Maybe when the Jets signed him, they knew that was what they were going to get from him

As to why that's been the case.. who knows?

 

[LowLefty]

Boohoo that neither of them are interested in the PB, how about play better, steal a spot and make it impossible for the team to take them out. Neither of them have done that, especially Stanley who is a penalty machine, along with a defensive disaster. I've also never seen a dman uncontestedly lose the puck as frequent as him. He's nearing 10 years with the Jets. And then you have heinola who has barely played in years playing right side nhl mins saddled with stanley.

Morrissey, Pionk are playing 25+ minutes. Not sustainable and may lead to injury. At least you can spell a few of those minutes with some Miller time rather than heinola and/or stanley out there.

All true - I agree with you - and they are likely playing as well as they ever will. The org might feel differently but that's their call.
I think it's last call for both of them - so they get that last opportunity.
Ville playing right or left - doesn't matter - his weakness has nothing to do with his skill level on either side.

I'd prefer to see Miller in the lineup - I've already stated that.
I'd also prefer to see this gong show end - it's a major distraction for the fan base

 

[LowLefty]

That very well might be case but I think confidence plays a big role here and he's never been able to get confident at this level. That is one thing that might change with a good vet partner over a couple of weeks.

But yes I've come around to those concerns about his size. It is one of the reasons I was advocating Chisholm over him as Declan has the size, is a superior skater, and knows his game and plays it at the NHL level. He also doesn't have much less offense. I'm pretty annoyed we lost him as he's that bottom pairing puck mover we lack.

I don't know how to say it any other way - IMO, this has nothing to do with his skill, confidence or hockey brain.
It's not just his size - it's more about his complete lack of a physical game. He's like a kid out there and always has been.
If you think he'll grow out of that at some point, you're certainly entitled to feel that way - but I haven't seen any progress on that front because it's simply not his game - he's a super soft player who has enough skill at the AHL level to play out of it but not even close at this level.

 

[surixon]

I don't know how to say it any other way - IMO, this has nothing to do with his skill, confidence or hockey brain.
It's not just his size - it's more about his complete lack of a physical game. He's like a kid out there and always has been.
If you think he'll grow out of that at some point, you're certainly entitled to feel that way - but I haven't seen any progress on that front because it's simply not his game - he's a super soft player who has enough skill at the AHL level to play out of it but not even close at this level.

Have you watched him play at the AHL level? He played with an edge there and was able to knock/separate people from the puck.

That part of his game has never been present at the NHL level though. Whether that be a confidence issue or he just isn't able to translate that aspect I don't know. But he played a pretty chippy/physical game in the minors. Perhaps he doesn't have the strength to do so at the NHL level.

Either way the clock is approaching midnight with this player in this org.