And I’m willing to be happy for now and accept mo’s job and see what we can do by adding another top d. I’m not saying don’t replace mo I’m saying wait till we start losing before knives come out and I’ll be right with you.
Player Discussion: Winnipeg Jets Defense
- Thread starter voyageur
- Start date
Duke749
Savannah Ghost Pirates
It’s worked in the past for us. Hopefully someone can take the bull by the horns here in our busiest stretch of the season.
Any interest in Cam Fowler?
Would be a slick skater to pair with Pionk, putting Forbort down a pair where I think he could be very effective. I don't consider him a top 4 guy, but he is a better than average bottom pair guy. Forbort could be a nice steady veteran partner for when/if Samberg or Heinola gets into the lineup.
Would be a slick skater to pair with Pionk, putting Forbort down a pair where I think he could be very effective. I don't consider him a top 4 guy, but he is a better than average bottom pair guy. Forbort could be a nice steady veteran partner for when/if Samberg or Heinola gets into the lineup.
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voyageur
Hockey fanatic
- Jul 10, 2011
- 10,457
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I think you are forgetting which one is the boss. One manages players, one coaches them.
voyageur
Hockey fanatic
- Jul 10, 2011
- 10,457
- 9,822
Yes he has. But I am curious how we are going to get our 2 unprotected forwards. Harkins doesn't have enough games to qualify. And still going to need an exemption to put Little on the list, or trade/ re-signing.
Harkins needs 5 more games, and we’ll probably extend Perreault by a year, imo.
jokesondee
I’m not fat. I’m cultivating mass.
One positive note to add to this thread. Neil Pionk is currently tied for 4th in total league scoring by defensemen! 
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he's been great this year. his shot looks way better and looks like he's playing with a bit more bite to his game. thought last year his play was a bit overhyped but he's been V good this season.One positive note to add to this thread. Neil Pionk currently tied for 4th in total league scoring by defensemen!
not with that contract i think. and doubt he'd waive for us.
Ducky10
Searching for Mark Scheifele
- Nov 14, 2014
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What are you on about? Don’t agree with what? The comment wasn’t even about him being a good/bad coach. At least make a post in context.
jokesondee
I’m not fat. I’m cultivating mass.
He's been freaking amazing. Add in Heinola who we also got in the Trouba trade and wow, that trade is shaping up to be a landslide win for Chevy. Im just worried Pionk is going to price himself out of Winnipeg.
yeah it all depends on his next contract. he's gonna lead the jets D in TOI and points again which usually translates to $$$$$
Teemusalami204
Registered User
Forbert has helped pionk turn into our best dman. I don’t think Maurice would want to split them up.
Guerzy
I'm a fricken baby
- Jan 16, 2005
- 39,830
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One positive note to add to this thread. Neil Pionk is currently tied for 4th in total league scoring by defensemen!
He's playing at about a 70 point pace (82 game season), pretty damn impressive. This is not the dman I thought we were getting at the time of the Trouba trade. Admittedly, I didn't know what we were getting, but I didn't think or expect he'd be this good considering the circumstances of Trouba wanting out and Chevy's hands being tied. And also Ranger fans seemed to despise him which is ironic at this point because Trouba has been a dud thus far in terms of impact and his albatross salary for what he brings to the table.
jokesondee
I’m not fat. I’m cultivating mass.
I periodically go over to the Ranger site and now everything i read about Pionk is "i knew he was good!" "people had an irrational hate for him for some reason" "he wasnt put in a position to succeed here", etc. Very much a You Dont Know What You Got Till Its Gone vibe over there regarding Pionk now lol.
- Jun 10, 2014
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And the one who is the boss gives the one who coaches the players the coach wants.
I'm sure they communicate on the subject very often. But if Maurice says to Chevy that he wants to get Samberg into the lineup, Chevy goes back to his office and figures out how to get that done - and then he does it. Just as long as it is doable, he will do it.
Won't be the first time Maurice is forced to make the right decision only because of injury. Connor may have played a whole extra season in the minors if it were not for injuries.
I'd guess that the Jets and many teams have better data and more types of data. I doubt the quality of data makes a huge difference overall, but their might be data analysis concepts that the Jets and NHL teams use that give different perspectives than public shot-based models.
My guess is that Maurice reviews and understands the data / models better than most fans and media pundits, but also likely uses other non-data driven considerations in his coaching process.
Scheifele was quite clear that he doesn't really understand or care about analytics, and uses other ways to assess player performance.
Teemusalami204
Registered User
Sheif is one of the worst 1c defensively in the entire nhl and the analytics prove it. I’m pretty sure he calls them “ hogwash” because it proves how lazy he Is defensively
I personally don’t understand them either but I still think this is Sheifs reasoning.
Pionk might be Exhibit A for the rift between the analytics community and the "traditionalists". I was part of the contingent of critics of the trade, based on public shot metrics models.
Here's a parody of the dialogue about Pionk that might illustrate why their is a rift...
Traditionalist: Pionk is a skilled young D who competes and moves the puck well. He'll be a good player:
Data aficionado: It doesn't really matter what scouts think about Pionk's skillset, his on-ice results are really bad so he's an ineffective player and a bad acquisition.
Traditionalist: Ha, you don't understand that Pionk had a tough role on a dysfunctional team, so you can't project his value based on his metrics with the Rangers.
Data analyst (rolls eyes): You evidently don't realize that the models adjust for context, so Pionk's performance is accurately reflected by his adjusted shot metrics.
Traditionalist: Even so, Pionk is still a young defenseman, and he is going to improve with experience because he's got good skills and works hard to improve.
Data analyst: The data show that on average defensemen peak at around Pionk's age, so the odds are against him improving at this stage of his career.
Traditionalist: Well, I trust my eyes more than the data and I think he'll be a good addition. Besides, Chevy and the scouts know more about hockey than you.
Data analyst: Well, you just don't understand the data concepts and are stuck in the past, just like Chevy, Maurice, etc.
A couple years later...
Traditionalist: See, I told you that Pionk is a good player and would thrive in a new environment.
Data analyst: ....
I'm thankful that we have some data scientists (like @garret9 ) that are balanced and some "traditionalists" that are open to different perspectives on this board. But there is a lot of negative potshots taken in social media and in some of the HF Boards discussions that tend to polarize the issues, leading to closed minds on both sides. My guess is that a player like Scheifele hears that a player like Pionk or Wheeler or Connor is trash, based on data, and from his perspective that's "hogwash". He's probably looking at much different variables, and is understandably skeptical when the data come to very different conclusions. As illustrated above, his assessment of a player like Pionk was probably more accurate than the data-based assessment. Until there is a better understanding of context and chemistry, those discrepancies will continue to create misunderstandings.
Traditionalist:
Here's a parody of the dialogue about Pionk that might illustrate why their is a rift...
Traditionalist: Pionk is a skilled young D who competes and moves the puck well. He'll be a good player:
Data aficionado: It doesn't really matter what scouts think about Pionk's skillset, his on-ice results are really bad so he's an ineffective player and a bad acquisition.
Traditionalist: Ha, you don't understand that Pionk had a tough role on a dysfunctional team, so you can't project his value based on his metrics with the Rangers.
Data analyst (rolls eyes): You evidently don't realize that the models adjust for context, so Pionk's performance is accurately reflected by his adjusted shot metrics.
Traditionalist: Even so, Pionk is still a young defenseman, and he is going to improve with experience because he's got good skills and works hard to improve.
Data analyst: The data show that on average defensemen peak at around Pionk's age, so the odds are against him improving at this stage of his career.
Traditionalist: Well, I trust my eyes more than the data and I think he'll be a good addition. Besides, Chevy and the scouts know more about hockey than you.
Data analyst: Well, you just don't understand the data concepts and are stuck in the past, just like Chevy, Maurice, etc.
A couple years later...
Traditionalist: See, I told you that Pionk is a good player and would thrive in a new environment.
Data analyst: ....
I'm thankful that we have some data scientists (like @garret9 ) that are balanced and some "traditionalists" that are open to different perspectives on this board. But there is a lot of negative potshots taken in social media and in some of the HF Boards discussions that tend to polarize the issues, leading to closed minds on both sides. My guess is that a player like Scheifele hears that a player like Pionk or Wheeler or Connor is trash, based on data, and from his perspective that's "hogwash". He's probably looking at much different variables, and is understandably skeptical when the data come to very different conclusions. As illustrated above, his assessment of a player like Pionk was probably more accurate than the data-based assessment. Until there is a better understanding of context and chemistry, those discrepancies will continue to create misunderstandings.
Traditionalist:
JetsFan815
Replacement Level Poster
- Jan 16, 2012
- 19,696
- 25,792
I really hope DeMelo and Maurice can resolve their differences soon otherwise being saddled with $3 million/year for the next 4 years guy playing bottom pairing on a team is not a great use of cap resources.
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