Player Discussion: Winnipeg Jets Defense

[Adam da bomb]

Ummm I’m not actually offended, that was a joke lol. If we all agreed on everything, it would be a pretty boring forum.
As for the shot count, it’s nice getting the wins but man, it’s only a matter of time before that bubble bursts when we play better teams. Obviously team like Calgary, Vancouver and Ottawa we have a better chance of getting through it but when we start playing out of our division, it’s gonna be a death sentence with guys like Ovi firing them at us and out D not being able to get the puck out of our own zone.

And I’m willing to be happy for now and accept mo’s job and see what we can do by adding another top d. I’m not saying don’t replace mo I’m saying wait till we start losing before knives come out and I’ll be right with you.

 

[Fastfrde]

Wonder if there is any chance the Jets bring Samberg up with Beauleau on IR? If he is out 4 weeks, there will be opportunity.

 

[Guerzy]

Re; Beaulieu, the choice has now been made for Maurice, and that is not a bad thing for the Jets.

 

[Duke749]

Re; Beaulieu, the choice has now been made for Maurice, and that is not a bad thing for the Jets.

It’s worked in the past for us. Hopefully someone can take the bull by the horns here in our busiest stretch of the season.

 

[VictoriaJetsFan]

Any interest in Cam Fowler?

Would be a slick skater to pair with Pionk, putting Forbort down a pair where I think he could be very effective. I don't consider him a top 4 guy, but he is a better than average bottom pair guy. Forbort could be a nice steady veteran partner for when/if Samberg or Heinola gets into the lineup.

 

[SCP Guy]

Do I recall Beau needing a certain amount of games to meet expansion draft eligibility? Has he hit those?

 

[voyageur]

If Maurice wanted a player, it would be up to Chevy to figure out how to do it. And you keep using that excuse when it has not applied at all for the last week since Comrie finished his quarantine. But OK, play Niku.

The AHL always serves little purpose other than development, especially the Moose.

The fact that Maurice playing Beaulieu was predictable does not make it a good move.

None of what you are saying applies to keeping Beaulieu in the lineup because there are easy solutions.

I think you are forgetting which one is the boss. One manages players, one coaches them.

 

[voyageur]

Do I recall Beau needing a certain amount of games to meet expansion draft eligibility? Has he hit those?

Yes he has. But I am curious how we are going to get our 2 unprotected forwards. Harkins doesn't have enough games to qualify. And still going to need an exemption to put Little on the list, or trade/ re-signing.

 

[Guffman]

Yes he has. But I am curious how we are going to get our 2 unprotected forwards. Harkins doesn't have enough games to qualify. And still going to need an exemption to put Little on the list, or trade/ re-signing.

Harkins needs 5 more games, and we’ll probably extend Perreault by a year, imo.

 

[jokesondee]

One positive note to add to this thread. Neil Pionk is currently tied for 4th in total league scoring by defensemen!

 

[DRW204]

One positive note to add to this thread. Neil Pionk currently tied for 4th in total league scoring by defensemen!

he's been great this year. his shot looks way better and looks like he's playing with a bit more bite to his game. thought last year his play was a bit overhyped but he's been V good this season.

 

[DRW204]

Any interest in Cam Fowler?

Would be a slick skater to pair with Pionk, putting Forbort down a pair where I think he could be very effective. I don't consider him a top 4 guy, but he is a better than average bottom pair guy. Forbort could be a nice steady veteran partner for when/if Samberg or Heinola gets into the lineup.

not with that contract i think. and doubt he'd waive for us.

 

[Ducky10]

Why not? People keep praising him for his mediocre coaching career.... seems like I can even out the garbage that he is somehow a good coach.
This entire forum is nothing but people repeating literally everything , constantly. How this player is good, this player is bad, this team is good, this team is bad..... but since you don’t agree, it’s “ad nasuem” lol soooo typical.

What are you on about? Don’t agree with what? The comment wasn’t even about him being a good/bad coach. At least make a post in context.

 

[jokesondee]

he's been great this year. his shot looks way better and looks like he's playing with a bit more bite to his game. thought last year his play was a bit overhyped but he's been V good this season.

He's been freaking amazing. Add in Heinola who we also got in the Trouba trade and wow, that trade is shaping up to be a landslide win for Chevy. Im just worried Pionk is going to price himself out of Winnipeg.

 

[DRW204]

He's been freaking amazing. Add in Heinola who we also got in the Trouba trade and wow, that trade is shaping up to be a landslide win for Chevy. Im just worried Pionk is going to price himself out of Winnipeg.

yeah it all depends on his next contract. he's gonna lead the jets D in TOI and points again which usually translates to $$$$$

 

[Teemusalami204]

Any interest in Cam Fowler?

Would be a slick skater to pair with Pionk, putting Forbort down a pair where I think he could be very effective. I don't consider him a top 4 guy, but he is a better than average bottom pair guy. Forbort could be a nice steady veteran partner for when/if Samberg or Heinola gets into the lineup.

Forbert has helped pionk turn into our best dman. I don’t think Maurice would want to split them up.

 

[Guerzy]

One positive note to add to this thread. Neil Pionk is currently tied for 4th in total league scoring by defensemen!

He's playing at about a 70 point pace (82 game season), pretty damn impressive. This is not the dman I thought we were getting at the time of the Trouba trade. Admittedly, I didn't know what we were getting, but I didn't think or expect he'd be this good considering the circumstances of Trouba wanting out and Chevy's hands being tied. And also Ranger fans seemed to despise him which is ironic at this point because Trouba has been a dud thus far in terms of impact and his albatross salary for what he brings to the table.

 

[TheGovernment]

What are you on about? Don’t agree with what? The comment wasn’t even about him being a good/bad coach. At least make a post in context.

The post you poo poo’d.... I though it was pretty obvious.... but guess not lol

 

[jokesondee]

He's playing at about a 70 point pace (82 game season), pretty damn impressive. This is not the dman I thought we were getting at the time of the Trouba trade. Admittedly, I didn't know what we were getting, but I didn't think or expect he'd be this good considering the circumstances of Trouba wanting out and Chevy's hands being tied. And also Ranger fans seemed to despise him which is ironic at this point because Trouba has been a dud thus far in terms of impact and his albatross salary for what he brings to the table.

I periodically go over to the Ranger site and now everything i read about Pionk is "i knew he was good!" "people had an irrational hate for him for some reason" "he wasnt put in a position to succeed here", etc. Very much a You Dont Know What You Got Till Its Gone vibe over there regarding Pionk now lol.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I think you are forgetting which one is the boss. One manages players, one coaches them.

And the one who is the boss gives the one who coaches the players the coach wants.

I'm sure they communicate on the subject very often. But if Maurice says to Chevy that he wants to get Samberg into the lineup, Chevy goes back to his office and figures out how to get that done - and then he does it. Just as long as it is doable, he will do it.

 

[stranger]

Jets defenceman Nathan Beaulieu out 'weeks' with upper-body injury

I hate seeing people get hurt, but maybe this was the sign that Maurice needed. Welcome back, Logan Stanley.

Won't be the first time Maurice is forced to make the right decision only because of injury. Connor may have played a whole extra season in the minors if it were not for injuries.

 

[Whileee]

Do you think the Jets analyze based on publicly available data or do they have more sophisticated measurements/adjustments?

The argument here is whether public data is sophisticated enough to capture what is going on out there. I don’t think a guy like Schiefele would be deceptive on this topic (Maurice, yes, Schiefele, no).

I'd guess that the Jets and many teams have better data and more types of data. I doubt the quality of data makes a huge difference overall, but their might be data analysis concepts that the Jets and NHL teams use that give different perspectives than public shot-based models.

My guess is that Maurice reviews and understands the data / models better than most fans and media pundits, but also likely uses other non-data driven considerations in his coaching process.

Scheifele was quite clear that he doesn't really understand or care about analytics, and uses other ways to assess player performance.

 

[Teemusalami204]

I'd guess that the Jets and many teams have better data and more types of data. I doubt the quality of data makes a huge difference overall, but their might be data analysis concepts that the Jets and NHL teams use that give different perspectives than public shot-based models.

My guess is that Maurice reviews and understands the data / models better than most fans and media pundits, but also likely uses other non-data driven considerations in his coaching process.

Scheifele was quite clear that he doesn't really understand or care about analytics, and uses other ways to assess player performance.

Sheif is one of the worst 1c defensively in the entire nhl and the analytics prove it. I’m pretty sure he calls them “ hogwash” because it proves how lazy he Is defensively

I personally don’t understand them either but I still think this is Sheifs reasoning.

 

[Whileee]

Pionk might be Exhibit A for the rift between the analytics community and the "traditionalists". I was part of the contingent of critics of the trade, based on public shot metrics models.

Here's a parody of the dialogue about Pionk that might illustrate why their is a rift...

Traditionalist: Pionk is a skilled young D who competes and moves the puck well. He'll be a good player:

Data aficionado: It doesn't really matter what scouts think about Pionk's skillset, his on-ice results are really bad so he's an ineffective player and a bad acquisition.

Traditionalist: Ha, you don't understand that Pionk had a tough role on a dysfunctional team, so you can't project his value based on his metrics with the Rangers.

Data analyst (rolls eyes): You evidently don't realize that the models adjust for context, so Pionk's performance is accurately reflected by his adjusted shot metrics.

Traditionalist: Even so, Pionk is still a young defenseman, and he is going to improve with experience because he's got good skills and works hard to improve.

Data analyst: The data show that on average defensemen peak at around Pionk's age, so the odds are against him improving at this stage of his career.

Traditionalist: Well, I trust my eyes more than the data and I think he'll be a good addition. Besides, Chevy and the scouts know more about hockey than you.

Data analyst: Well, you just don't understand the data concepts and are stuck in the past, just like Chevy, Maurice, etc.

A couple years later...

Traditionalist: See, I told you that Pionk is a good player and would thrive in a new environment.

Data analyst: ....

I'm thankful that we have some data scientists (like @garret9 ) that are balanced and some "traditionalists" that are open to different perspectives on this board. But there is a lot of negative potshots taken in social media and in some of the HF Boards discussions that tend to polarize the issues, leading to closed minds on both sides. My guess is that a player like Scheifele hears that a player like Pionk or Wheeler or Connor is trash, based on data, and from his perspective that's "hogwash". He's probably looking at much different variables, and is understandably skeptical when the data come to very different conclusions. As illustrated above, his assessment of a player like Pionk was probably more accurate than the data-based assessment. Until there is a better understanding of context and chemistry, those discrepancies will continue to create misunderstandings.

Traditionalist:

 

[JetsFan815]

I really hope DeMelo and Maurice can resolve their differences soon otherwise being saddled with $3 million/year for the next 4 years guy playing bottom pairing on a team is not a great use of cap resources.