Speculation: Wings spare parts at the deadline (Actually, the tank thread)

[StargateSG1]

There's no other option. If you don't draft superstars, you don't get them. Tanking and acquiring picks gives you the best odds at getting them. In reality, you really need at least two superstars. Red Wings have none, currently.

It's backwards thinking from some, for sure...
Can't count on luck in the lottery, but somehow it's ok to hope for luck finding star players like Dats, Zetterberg, Kucherov or Point in later rounds, when the odds are THAT much worse, cause the whole world is scouted heavy now days... Perhaps we should scout Mongolia? Just don't get it....

 

[norrisnick]

There's no other option. If you don't draft superstars, you don't get them. Tanking and acquiring picks gives you the best odds at getting them. In reality, you really need at least two superstars. Red Wings have none, currently.

What superstars did St Louis have? The Caps only had one. Does Chara count for Boston?

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Right. so tank. hope you get number 1 overall. hope it's a generational player. rinse. repeat.

That's a fantasy, not a plan.

Highest percentage chance of giving you the pieces you need to contend again.

Anyone who argues otherwise is wrong.

 

[Claypool]

What superstars did St Louis have? The Caps only had one. Does Chara count for Boston?

Washington has been a Stanley Cup contender since Ovechkin basically came in the league. They've been in the mix for well over a decade. Argument could be made Backstrom was in the superstar category at one point. Holtby won the Vezina. John Carlson finished second in Norris voting in 2020.

Boston had Chara, Bergeron, and a goalie that won two Vezinas and a conn smtyhe trophy, and that had one of the best save percentages in league history.

St. Louis is the obvious outliner, but O'Reilly won the Selke (and Conn Smythe), had a 40-goal scorer in Tarasenko, But with St. Louis they weren't built to win year after year, and the lack of superstars is an obvious reason why they probably won't win another cup for awhile.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Highest percentage chance of giving you the pieces you need to contend again.

Anyone who argues otherwise is wrong.

That last sentence is really a tell as to how weak your argument is.

It's the forum equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "LALALALALA not listening!!!" as people dismantle your argument.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

That last sentence is really a tell as to how weak your argument is.

It's the forum equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "LALALALALA not listening!!!" as people dismantle your argument.

I have explained my position a billion times.

You tell me what team building strategy has a better chance of giving you a cup contending roster in 5-8 years?

Wings current trajectory is five more years of 18-22nd place overall and then the rebuild begins again.

As it currently stands, the Wings might be a completive team in 2030.

 

[StargateSG1]

Washington has been a Stanley Cup contender since Ovechkin basically came in the league. They've been in the mix for well over a decade. Argument could be made Backstrom was in the superstar category at one point. Holtby won the Vezina. John Carlson finished second in Norris voting in 2020.

Boston had Chara, Bergeron, and a goalie that won two Vezinas and a conn smtyhe trophy, and that had one of the best save percentages in league history.

St. Louis is the obvious outliner, but O'Reilly won the Selke (and Conn Smythe), had a 40-goal scorer in Tarasenko, But with St. Louis they weren't built to win year after year, and the lack of superstars is an obvious reason why they probably won't win another cup for awhile.

Piatrengelo also.
And all aforementioned teams were "one and done" as far as Cups go.
So no prolonged success, just 1 season when the stars aligned.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Washington has been a Stanley Cup contender since Ovechkin basically came in the league. They've been in the mix for well over a decade. Argument could be made Backstrom was in the superstar category at one point. Holtby won the Vezina. John Carlson finished second in Norris voting in 2020.

Boston had Chara, Bergeron, and a goalie that won two Vezinas and a conn smtyhe trophy, and that had one of the best save percentages in league history.

St. Louis is the obvious outliner, but O'Reilly won the Selke (and Conn Smythe), had a 40-goal scorer in Tarasenko, But with St. Louis they weren't built to win year after year, and the lack of superstars is an obvious reason why they probably won't win another cup for awhile.

Right. So the plan is to tank until you get an Ovechkin and Backstrom.

Solid plan.

I have explained my position a billion times.

You tell me what team building strategy has a better chance of giving you a cup contending roster in 5-8 years?

Wings current trajectory is five more years of 18-22nd place overall and then the rebuild begins again.

As it currently stands, the Wings might be a completive team in 2030.

And it's been dismantled every time. It is not a higher percentage chance at being a contender in 5 to 8 years, but enjoy your fantasy.

 

[Roy S]

The draft is good enough this year that any pick in the top 4 could be a franchise player.

I’m assuming it’s going to happen anyway, but there is no chance at the playoffs this year so the Wings need to be sellers and get as many picks as they can get. I think they re-sign Larkin and Walman. Other than that, every UFA should be on the market. Perron and Kubalik should be shopped too since they have a lot of value.

In terms of the future, I feel good about the long term defenseman outlook. Seider should end up a top 5 to top 10 defenseman in the NHL and a bonafide #1. Edvinsson is a great prospect too and Wallinder should be able to fit in the top 4. Walman and Hronek are only in their mid 20’s. It looks bad now, but I think the future is bright there. I would expect an offensive RHD to be targeted high in the draft this year or next year.

I think Raymond is going to be a legit top line winger long term. Kasper is going to be a good second line center and I like Berggren, Soderblom and Rasmussen as 2nd and 3rd line wingers. The big missing link is just more high end offensive talent. They need to get an elite center (lottery luck this year?) and another elite wing prospect over the next few drafts. We probably will need lottery luck at some point and this would be one of the best years ever to get it.

 

[norrisnick]

I have explained my position a billion times.

You tell me what team building strategy has a better chance of giving you a cup contending roster in 5-8 years?

Wings current trajectory is five more years of 18-22nd place overall and then the rebuild begins again.

As it currently stands, the Wings might be a completive team in 2030.

Edmonton and Buffalo have been playing the lottery game since 2010.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Math?
What's with the conspiracy theories?
Just cause they lost 1, doesn't mean they can't win one.

Math is not on your side when it comes to tanking. It gets you a 25% chance at 1st overall and a 55% chance at #3.

 

[StargateSG1]

Math is not on your side when it comes to tanking. It gets you a 25% chance at 1st overall and a 55% chance at #3.

You'd spend all your salary on lottery tickets if you had those odds in real life.

 

[norrisnick]

The draft is good enough this year that any pick in the top 4 could be a franchise player.

I’m assuming it’s going to happen anyway, but there is no chance at the playoffs this year so the Wings need to be sellers and get as many picks as they can get. I think they re-sign Larkin and Walman. Other than that, every UFA should be on the market. Perron and Kubalik should be shopped too since they have a lot of value.

In terms of the future, I feel good about the long term defenseman outlook. Seider should end up a top 5 to top 10 defenseman in the NHL and a bonafide #1. Edvinsson is a great prospect too and Wallinder should be able to fit in the top 4. Walman and Hronek are only in their mid 20’s. It looks bad now, but I think the future is bright there. I would expect an offensive RHD to be targeted high in the draft this year or next year.

I think Raymond is going to be a legit top line winger long term. Kasper is going to be a good second line center and I like Berggren, Soderblom and Rasmussen as 2nd and 3rd line wingers. The big missing link is just more high end offensive talent. They need to get an elite center (lottery luck this year?) and another elite wing prospect over the next few drafts. We probably will need lottery luck at some point and this would be one of the best years ever to get it.

What?

The single most glaring need the Wings have is a pure goal-scorer up front. Whether it's a center or a winger, we need a bonafide top line shoot first guy.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Right. So the plan is to tank until you get an Ovechkin and Backstrom.

Solid plan.




And it's been dismantled every time. It is not a higher percentage chance at being a contender in 5 to 8 years, but enjoy your fantasy.

How has it been dismantled? What strategy gives the Wings a better chance of building a cup contending roster? You haven't given me a single alternative. You just keep saying tanking isn't the best option, but you haven't proposed a single alternative that has a higher chance of being successful.

 

[Claypool]

Piatrengelo also.
And all aforementioned teams were "one and done" as far as Cups go.
So no prolonged success, just 1 season when the stars aligned.

Boston has been to three finals in a ten year period with Chara and Bergeron. I'd take that every day of the week as a fan. Looks like they still have another run with Bergeron left at the helm.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Edmonton and Buffalo have been playing the lottery game since 2010.

Detroit's gonna be playing the purgatory game till the Sun burns all of its Hydrogen and turns into a Red Giant.

 

[norrisnick]

How has it been dismantled? What strategy gives the Wings a better chance of building a cup contending roster? You haven't given me a single alternative. You just keep saying tanking isn't the best option, but you haven't proposed a single alternative that has a higher chance of being successful.

Making your team better is a better strategy than making your team worse.

Boston has been to three finals in a ten year period with Chara and Bergeron. I'd take that every day of the week as a fan. Looks like they still have another run with Bergeron left at the helm.

A UFA signing and 2nd round pick.

 

[Claypool]

Making your team better is a better strategy than making your team worse.


A UFA signing and 2nd round pick.

Both superstars. What's your point? Is there a Chara hitting free agency soon and coming to Detroit?

Is Berggren the next Bergeron?

Berggreron?

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Making your team better is a better strategy than making your team worse.

That isn't the argument. What team building strategy other than tanking gives you the best chance of building a cup contending roster?

 

[Roy S]

What?

The single most glaring need the Wings have is a pure goal-scorer up front. Whether it's a center or a winger, we need a bonafide top line shoot first guy.

Presumably either an elite center and/or elite winger is also going to be a great goal scorer.

Also, this team is going nowhere this year or next year. So, I’m not really focused on current problems with this team, but what is needed long term to be a consistent contender.

In terms of RHD, the Wings have no other legit prospects there. It’s going to be a focus in the coming drafts.

 

[norrisnick]

Both superstars. What's your point? Is there a Chara hitting free agency soon and coming to Detroit?

Is Berggren the next Bergeron?

Berggreron?

The point is that "OMG must tank" isn't the only way to get talent.

 

[norrisnick]

That isn't the argument. What team building strategy other than tanking gives you the best chance of building a cup contending roster?

A lot of it is blind luck. You need to find top shelf talent outside of lottery picks.

So you might as well try to construct as good a team as you can, because the talent that tips the scales very often isn't found in the lottery.

 

[Claypool]

The point is that "OMG must tank" isn't the only way to get talent.

Your plan appears to be draft superstars in the 2nd round and sign other superstars in free agency. If this team drafted Jason Robertson instead of Gustav Lindstrom you might be onto something.

My plan is to keep tanking, acquiring picks, and draft as high as possible for several years in a row.

Looking at the past Stanley Cup winners for the 15+ years, it appears my strategy is the best.

 

[norrisnick]

Your plan appears to be draft superstars in the 2nd round and sign other superstars in free agency. If this team drafted Jason Robertson instead of Gustav Lindstrom you might be onto something.

My plan is to keep tanking, acquiring picks, and draft as high as possible for several years in a row.

Looking at the past Stanley Cup winners for the 15+ years, it appears my strategy is the best.

Every winner has hit huge on mid to last 1sts or lower round picks, key trades, or free agent signings.

Tanking can very quickly spiral into a toxic losing atmosphere that is very very hard to climb out of. There is no guarantee that Edmonton or Buffalo win anything and they've been mired in that bullshit for over 10 years now.

The closest example there is for a team tanking to success is Pittsburgh's string of 1-2-1-2 almost 20 years ago. But those first two picks aren't even really a tank. More of a case of a team that was going bankrupt and likely folds if they don't get gifted Sid coming out of the lockout. And even they needed a 3rd to hit huge with Letang.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

You'd spend all your salary on lottery tickets if you had those odds in real life.

Which has nothing to do with rebuilding a hockey franchise