Prospect Info: Wings Prospect Discussion

[jaster]

He could have signed anywhere though if he had just stayed at NoDak too. I thought he looked pretty good this year. He is a very good skater with reasonable size, I never thought of him as being in the dog house.

This new transfer portal is crazy. I would hate to be a DI coach in this day and age

Yeah I didn't mean that transferring makes it easier for him to sign elsewhere, just that it's a familiar track. To me, it's a kid looking for a new place to better sell himself. And if he's looking to sell himself, it seems less likely he's looking to sign with the team that holds his rights. I acknowledge there is some conjecture baked into that, and Moore may still sign with Detroit, but I do feel it is much less likely at this point.

Pontus Andreasson is rumored to return in Sweden.
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Makes sense. He came over looking to crack into the NHL and it didn't happen. Back to Europe.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Yeah I didn't mean that transferring makes it easier for him to sign elsewhere, just that it's a familiar track. To me, it's a kid looking for a new place to better sell himself. And if he's looking to sell himself, it seems less likely he's looking to sign with the team that holds his rights. I acknowledge there is some conjecture baked into that, and Moore may still sign with Detroit, but I do feel it is much less likely at this point.


Makes sense. He came over looking to crack into the NHL and it didn't happen. Back to Europe.

Now that I think about it, he can sign anywhere right now if he can get an offer. I forgot he spent his D+1 year in the BCHL.

 

[jaster]

Now that I think about it, he can sign anywhere right now if he can get an offer. I forgot he spent his D+1 year in the BCHL.

Hm. Not saying you're wrong, but CapFriendly shows that Detroit holds his rights until August of 2024. Is he maybe too young for that year in the BCHL to matter?

 

[RabidBadger]

Yeah I didn't mean that transferring makes it easier for him to sign elsewhere, just that it's a familiar track. To me, it's a kid looking for a new place to better sell himself. And if he's looking to sell himself, it seems less likely he's looking to sign with the team that holds his rights. I acknowledge there is some conjecture baked into that, and Moore may still sign with Detroit, but I do feel it is much less likely at this point.

I wouldn't accuse you of conjecture for that statement. Generally when a draftee makes it to their senior year of college their drafter is kissing them buh-bye! Outside of Brian Elliot I'm hard pressed to think of any guys who stayed all four years and went to the team that drafted them.

 

[Killerjas]

Another reason why I dont like the NCAA route, give me more Europeans

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Hm. Not saying you're wrong, but CapFriendly shows that Detroit holds his rights until August of 2024. Is he maybe too young for that year in the BCHL to matter?

I thought (and could totally be wrong on this) that you first have the right as a draftee playing NCAA hockey to sign anywhere as a UFA after your D+4 season. If you don't sign, still have eligibility and return to college for your final NCAA season, the team that drafted you retains your rights until you graduate (or a certain number of days after graduation). It is a transitory period of UFA status. Appreciate this will only apply to kids who return to Tier II junior hockey for their D+1 season.

I seem to remember the intent was to treat all NCAA bound draftees the same whether they play an additional year of juniors after being drafted or not. You put in 4 post draft seasons, you can sign wherever you want.

 

[jaster]

I thought (and could totally be wrong on this) that you first have the right as a draftee playing NCAA hockey to sign anywhere as a UFA after your D+4 season. If you don't sign, still have eligibility and return to college for your final NCAA season, the team that drafted you retains your rights until you graduate (or a certain number of days after graduation). It is a transitory period of UFA status. Appreciate this will only apply to kids who return to Tier II junior hockey for their D+1 season.

I seem to remember the intent was to treat all NCAA bound draftees the same whether they play an additional year of juniors after being drafted or not. You put in 4 post draft seasons, you can sign wherever you want.

That makes a lot of sense. Maybe CapFriendly just kind of glosses over that part when they show guys like Moore and Portillo at Michigan (who also played a year of junior hockey after the same draft and all reports suggest can become an UFA this summer) having their rights retained until after their senior years.

 

[RabidBadger]

Another reason why I dont like the NCAA route, give me more Europeans

The captain of the team went the NCAA route.

That out of the way; 99% of the time teams don't lose high end prospects that go the NCAA route and don't commit. Blake Wheeler is one of the outliers but that was quite a while ago.

If you want to look at it as wasted draft picks....I guess. Keith Petruzelli and (potentially) Cooper Moore going FA is not a real blow as they were/are unlikely to be significant contributors. If a player is not in your pro system after 2 or 3 years, NCAA or European, they are not going to be a big loss.

 

[lilidk]

Lombardi team is also loosing, hope for
Lombardi -Kasper -Mazur line

 

[crashmore]

The captain of the team went the NCAA route.

That out of the way; 99% of the time teams don't lose high end prospects that go the NCAA route and don't commit. Blake Wheeler is one of the outliers but that was quite a while ago.

If you want to look at it as wasted draft picks....I guess. Keith Petruzelli and (potentially) Cooper Moore going FA is not a real blow as they were/are unlikely to be significant contributors. If a player is not in your pro system after 2 or 3 years, NCAA or European, they are not going to be a big loss.

this is spot on. i don't agree with the suggestions here that just because a guy is transferring or staying for his senior year that it's a sign they're intentionally going the UFA route.

it's not in a player's best interest to hold out until they're 23 or 24 to go pro if a team is interested in signing them after their sophomore or junior years (especially a bad team with lots of spots open). it's exceptionally rare that a player who stays all four years becomes a high-impact NHLer. the recent examples besides Wheeler are Fox or Vesey, but Fox was pretty vocal about his intentions and Vesey never quite became the player people thought.

i watch a decent amount of college hockey and i wouldn't be concerned about Mastrosimone, Moore or Gylander. Mastrosimone could never find footing on BU teams that desperately needed offense; transferred to a team that plays an easier schedule and doesn't (yet) get a ton of top NHL talent. i wouldn't have minded him getting a contract but you really only have so many spots for rookies on your AHL club, and the Griffins potentially already have Kasper, Lombardi, Mazur and Doucet coming in on top of a couple guys who had injury-limited rookie years in Hanas and Soderblom (but hopefully one or two take an NHL job). if you don't leave room for good vets, you aren't winning many games and that's not a great development environment.

Moore still was an occasional healthy scratch on a team that had a bad year by its standards. Gylander plays in a terrible, low-scoring conference and couldn't fully seize the starting job until this year. i think both took steps forward, but if they had an agent (or "family advisor") worth anything, they would take an NHL offer (if they had one) right now because if they take any kind of step back next year they won't even be on the radar for an AHL contract.

and a final reminder, another prospect people freaked out that "he's going to go UFA!!" was David Pope. he had a monster senior year at Omaha and the Wings did sign him; he scored six goals over two pro seasons, was traded for Alex Biega, and has been out of hockey for three years. that is the far, far more likely case for all of these guys than missing out on the next Adam Fox.

 

[Filppula]

Rough start for Flint in their series, yikes.

 

[lidstromiscool]

The moment Mastrosimone transferred to ASU, he decided not to take his NHL career serious. ASU plays with hardly any detail or structure. Sure their run n gun offense will help players score a decent amount of points, but it doesn't develop anyone for pro hockey. Look at how their players have faired in pro hockey the past few years.

I actually don't mind him as a player, he's an NHL level skater, and he was the best player on the ice most games I watched, but there was zero chance Yzerman signs him to a contract after transferring from Boston to ASU, especially with Yzerman valuing culture so highly (rightfully so)

 

[Filppula]

The moment Mastrosimone transferred to ASU, he decided not to take his NHL career serious. ASU plays with hardly any detail or structure. Sure their run n gun offense will help players score a decent amount of points, but it doesn't develop anyone for pro hockey. Look at how their players have faired in pro hockey the past few years.

I actually don't mind him as a player, he's an NHL level skater, and he was the best player on the ice most games I watched, but there was zero chance Yzerman signs him to a contract after transferring from Boston to ASU, especially with Yzerman valuing culture so highly (rightfully so)

Thought the rumour was Yzerman did but he rejected? Maybe I’m wrong.

 

[DetroitRed]

Is there a pattern with our prospects not performing starting around their second year with the Wings? It started before Yzerman I think, but the Wings’ prospects seem to still have long sophomore slumps. Where is the problem at?

I know, your second year, other teams can really hone in on you. So, I see Seider as fighting through very well although it is happening to him, but that’s not the story for every guy they develop. The guys who are not fighting through it as well, I’m saying we see it a lot.

 

[jkutswings]

Is there a pattern with our prospects not performing starting around their second year with the Wings? It started before Yzerman I think, but the Wings’ prospects seem to still have long sophomore slumps. Where is the problem at?

I know, your second year, other teams can really hone in on you. So, I see Seider as fighting through very well although it is happening to him, but that’s not the story for every guy they develop. The guys who are not fighting through it as well, I’m saying we see it a lot.

I think part of it is how they're implemented. When everybody was over ripened, they started with tons of shelter by HOF players and had very limited minutes. Now the kids are justifying more prominent roles sooner in their careers, which leads to getting tired sooner and other teams having tape on them sooner.

In the long run I think it's good for them and the franchise. But it's an unavoidable side effect of rebuilding.

 

[tyhee]

I thought (and could totally be wrong on this) that you first have the right as a draftee playing NCAA hockey to sign anywhere as a UFA after your D+4 season. If you don't sign, still have eligibility and return to college for your final NCAA season, the team that drafted you retains your rights until you graduate (or a certain number of days after graduation). It is a transitory period of UFA status. Appreciate this will only apply to kids who return to Tier II junior hockey for their D+1 season.

I seem to remember the intent was to treat all NCAA bound draftees the same whether they play an additional year of juniors after being drafted or not. You put in 4 post draft seasons, you can sign wherever you want.

You're right that he could have signed with any team this summer, though he'd have had to give notice to the NHL office that he had ceased to be a bona fide college student.

The rules are a little complicated but essentially when someone is drafted at age 18 or 19, receives a bona fide offer from the team that drafted him and then becomes a bona fide college player prior to the June 1 two years after he was drafted, then the drafting team retains exclusive rights until the player's college class graduates.

If the player doesn't remain a bona fide college player and gives notice of that to the NHL league office then the drafting team retains exclusive rights until the 4th June 1st following his draft (or August 15 if he was in his 4th year in college and either used up his college eligibility or was scheduled to graduate that year.)

So to sign elsewhere, Moore would have to give notice to the league office that he is no longer a bona fide college player, wait until June 1 (or at least another 30 days if he gave notice later than May 1) and then he'd be eligible to sign as a free agent.

Anyone who wants to slog through the language of the collective bargaining agreement can download it from the Players' Association website at Collective Bargaining Agreement

The relevant provisions are in Article 8.6(c)(iii) and (iv).

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

You're right that he could have signed with any team this summer, though he'd have had to give notice to the NHL office that he had ceased to be a bona fide college student.

The rules are a little complicated but essentially when someone is drafted at age 18 or 19, receives a bona fide offer from the team that drafted him and then becomes a bona fide college player prior to the June 1 two years after he was drafted, then the drafting team retains exclusive rights until the player's college class graduates.

If the player doesn't remain a bona fide college player and gives notice of that to the NHL league office then the drafting team retains exclusive rights until the 4th June 1st following his draft (or August 15 if he was in his 4th year in college and either used up his college eligibility or was scheduled to graduate that year.)

So to sign elsewhere, Moore would have to give notice to the league office that he is no longer a bona fide college player, wait until June 1 (or at least another 30 days if he gave notice later than May 1) and then he'd be eligible to sign as a free agent.

Anyone who wants to slog through the language of the collective bargaining agreement can download it from the Players' Association website at Collective Bargaining Agreement

The relevant provisions are in Article 8.6(c)(iii) and (iv).

Thank you for posting.

 

[jaster]

i don't agree with the suggestions here that just because a guy is transferring or staying for his senior year that it's a sign they're intentionally going the UFA route.

It's not a guarantee, but it's a strong sign, and spikes the odds a lot when players go back for their 4th year. That's just based on the number of players who do it and then don't sign. It's very rare for top prospects, like @RabidBadger mentioned, but when mid/low-range prospects do it, that's often how it plays out. Petruzzelli, Mastrosimone, and now maybe Moore and Gylander.

it's not in a player's best interest to hold out until they're 23 or 24 to go pro if a team is interested in signing them after their sophomore or junior years (especially a bad team with lots of spots open). it's exceptionally rare that a player who stays all four years becomes a high-impact NHLer. the recent examples besides Wheeler are Fox or Vesey, but Fox was pretty vocal about his intentions and Vesey never quite became the player people thought.

i watch a decent amount of college hockey and i wouldn't be concerned about Mastrosimone, Moore or Gylander. Mastrosimone could never find footing on BU teams that desperately needed offense; transferred to a team that plays an easier schedule and doesn't (yet) get a ton of top NHL talent. i wouldn't have minded him getting a contract but you really only have so many spots for rookies on your AHL club, and the Griffins potentially already have Kasper, Lombardi, Mazur and Doucet coming in on top of a couple guys who had injury-limited rookie years in Hanas and Soderblom (but hopefully one or two take an NHL job). if you don't leave room for good vets, you aren't winning many games and that's not a great development environment.

Moore still was an occasional healthy scratch on a team that had a bad year by its standards. Gylander plays in a terrible, low-scoring conference and couldn't fully seize the starting job until this year. i think both took steps forward, but if they had an agent (or "family advisor") worth anything, they would take an NHL offer (if they had one) right now because if they take any kind of step back next year they won't even be on the radar for an AHL contract.

and a final reminder, another prospect people freaked out that "he's going to go UFA!!" was David Pope. he had a monster senior year at Omaha and the Wings did sign him; he scored six goals over two pro seasons, was traded for Alex Biega, and has been out of hockey for three years. that is the far, far more likely case for all of these guys than missing out on the next Adam Fox.

Agree with the rest. Mastrosimone had his development taper off a bit, but there was something there early on, he was well-thought of by the national program. He missed the WJC because of Covid, and then things went kinda south for him. At this point, he doesn't have the shine he once had.

Regardless, the main point is that the Wings have a deep prospect pool, and all of these names we've all discussed are pretty low in our rankings. Which may be a significant factor in why many of them are looking to become UFAs. They may want a path of lesser resistance. I still endorse the college route, I still generally like it better than the CHL route.

 

[jaster]

The moment Mastrosimone transferred to ASU, he decided not to take his NHL career serious. ASU plays with hardly any detail or structure. Sure their run n gun offense will help players score a decent amount of points, but it doesn't develop anyone for pro hockey. Look at how their players have faired in pro hockey the past few years.

The bold is a bit hyperbolic. He was clearly looking for a bigger opportunity and got it. Where he may have lost some development in a more structured system, he certainly gained development offensively and got a better spotlight put on him.

I actually don't mind him as a player, he's an NHL level skater, and he was the best player on the ice most games I watched, but there was zero chance Yzerman signs him to a contract after transferring from Boston to ASU, especially with Yzerman valuing culture so highly (rightfully so)

It was reported that Yzerman offered him a contract, so there goes that weird theory that ASU is so bad that it would preclude Yzerman from even offering an ELC.

 

[jaster]

You're right that he could have signed with any team this summer, though he'd have had to give notice to the NHL office that he had ceased to be a bona fide college student.

The rules are a little complicated but essentially when someone is drafted at age 18 or 19, receives a bona fide offer from the team that drafted him and then becomes a bona fide college player prior to the June 1 two years after he was drafted, then the drafting team retains exclusive rights until the player's college class graduates.

If the player doesn't remain a bona fide college player and gives notice of that to the NHL league office then the drafting team retains exclusive rights until the 4th June 1st following his draft (or August 15 if he was in his 4th year in college and either used up his college eligibility or was scheduled to graduate that year.)

So to sign elsewhere, Moore would have to give notice to the league office that he is no longer a bona fide college player, wait until June 1 (or at least another 30 days if he gave notice later than May 1) and then he'd be eligible to sign as a free agent.

Anyone who wants to slog through the language of the collective bargaining agreement can download it from the Players' Association website at Collective Bargaining Agreement

The relevant provisions are in Article 8.6(c)(iii) and (iv).

Somewhere there's a difference though, between college players who play a year of juniors between the draft and their freshman year in college, and players who go straight to college after their draft. The former have some additional freedom to become an UFA after their junior year, whereas the latter don't. And I think @Rzombo4 prez is right about the D+4 status being key to that.

 

[ChadS]

3 goals, 2 assists for Doucet last night.

 

[FlyguyOX]

What the heck is Soderblom dealing with? Has missed most of the year now

 

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

Great news. He was the best defensive prospect at camp

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Great news. He was the best defensive prospect at camp

I loved this kid’s skating and compete. I hope he did something to impress his hands and passing because he was lobbing bricks at camp.

 

[Reddwit]

The Wings need to poach some scouting talent from Dallas. They scoop Johnston, and have Stankoven and Bourque coming on, while Robertson, Heisknen, and Oettinger are still kids. Damn.