Prospect Info: Wings Prospect Discussion

[Inspiration]

If you were more pessimistic than this forum on every single Red Wings prospect, you would be right like 90% of the time. Maybe more.

 

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

perhaps he should start by leading his college team in points like Red Wings greats David Pope, Austin Czarnik,Taro Hirose,and Ryan Kuffner before we start comparing him to Zetterberg



he also has 3 assists in 12 games, funny how nobody ever mentions that part




position silliness aside I must have missed when Hirose and Makar were on the same team(or even in the same Conference)

Pope was 23 when he led his NCAA team in scoring (never scored at a point per game pace before that and on had 8 points in 31 games at Mazur's age. Czarnik and Hirose were a year older than Mazur is when they lead their NCAA team in scoring. None of them had the grit that Mazur does to go along with the skill and Mazur could still end up leading his team in scoring this year.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Serious question: Why the critique of Mazur when he's outperformed his draft slot and overager tag by quite a bit?

He's being recognized by hockey outlets across North America, has played a major role at the WJC, helped his team win a national championship, and is currently in discussion for the Hobey Baker while leading the league in goals. What logical reason is there to bash this prospect's development?

 

[jfrank21]

Serious question: Why the critique of Mazur when he's outperformed his draft slot and overager tag by quite a bit?

He's being recognized by hockey outlets across North America, has played a major role at the WJC, helped his team win a national championship, and is currently in discussion for the Hobey Baker while leading the league in goals. What logical reason is there to bash this prospect's development?

I just think it's a case of not wanting to admit that their hot take reaction was wrong. If you spend any amount of time watching Mazur, you can see that there's something there. I was in the same boat, hated the pick at first because I wanted Kirsanov or Robertsson....but then I went to the summer showcase that year and really liked what I saw from Mazur and admitted my mistake. Some people just dont have that capacity, we see it more and more these days in different areas.

 

[NickH8]

there's also a Jon Bois video about it:

​

This is just a typical Saturday on this board.
Damn I wish I was around for the thread when we let Hossa go for Franzen

 

[newfy]

Callahan, Bootland, Barnes, Big Snake... man... I remember the posters that absolutely loved those guys and swore up and down they were the make or break piece to add some grit to the Wings.

Didnt care for most of those guys but Callahan definitely could've been something. There was some off ice stuff I think that held him back, but he was a really solid hockey player

I just think it's a case of not wanting to admit that their hot take reaction was wrong.

Ding ding ding.

You nailed it. People doubling down on a really stupid hot take

 

[lilidk]

I just think it's a case of not wanting to admit that their hot take reaction was wrong. If you spend any amount of time watching Mazur, you can see that there's something there. I was in the same boat, hated the pick at first because I wanted Kirsanov or Robertsson....but then I went to the summer showcase that year and really liked what I saw from Mazur and admitted my mistake. Some people just dont have that capacity, we see it more and more these days in different areas.

It more like let's not get over excited before he come to play in pro hockey. I remember how I was excited when we drafted Zadina, things change and not always for better. I also was wrong on Wallinder , at the draft I hated that pick and now it's 180 degrees for me, love it

 

[jaster]

It more like let's not get over excited before he come to play in pro hockey. I remember how I was excited when we drafted Zadina, things change and not always for better. I also was wrong on Wallinder , at the draft I hated that pick and now it's 180 degrees for me, love it

It's ok to be excited about Wallinder, but not Mazur? What's the criteria here, for who we can and cannot be excited about?

EDIT: Ok, so the criteria is pro hockey. Well, sorry, but that's kinda dumb. Some people have been playing and watching the game their whole lives. Watching college kids and making evaluations, being excited or disappointed, is well within the knowledge base of many fans. That's not to say they're always right, but they're not always right watching the SHL either. And the jump from college hockey to the SHL is way smaller than the jump from the SHL to the NHL.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

It's ok to be excited about Wallinder, but not Mazur? What's the criteria here, for who we can and cannot be excited about?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Don’t ruin this moment though. We just witnessed lilidk say he loves Wallinder after 2 years of hating it.

@lilidk whats that smell? The scent of Me being right?

 

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

Serious question: Why the critique of Mazur when he's outperformed his draft slot and overager tag by quite a bit?

He's being recognized by hockey outlets across North America, has played a major role at the WJC, helped his team win a national championship, and is currently in discussion for the Hobey Baker while leading the league in goals. What logical reason is there to bash this prospect's development?

I think it is mostly because they stated they didn't like the pick when he was drafted

 

[norrisnick]

I think it is mostly because they stated they didn't like the pick when he was drafted

Hey. It's not cool to misquote someone

Ricky said he hated the pick.

 

[ricky0034]

It's ok to be excited about Wallinder, but not Mazur? What's the criteria here, for who we can and cannot be excited about?

the funny thing is people say negative things about Wallinder all the time but it never draws even 1/100th of the reaction that saying anything negative about Mazur does

so maybe we should ask you what the criteria are

also they literally mentioned pro hockey in the post you quoted which sounds an awful lot like a criteria to me

 

[jaster]

the funny thing is people say negative things about Wallinder all the time but it never draws even 1/100th of the reaction that saying anything negative about Mazur does

so maybe we should ask you what the criteria are

also they literally mentioned pro hockey in the post you quoted which sounds an awful lot like a criteria to me

Fair enough on the pro hockey part being the criteria (though that makes no sense). But the rest is disingenuous. Wallinder has been criticized because of a history of low compete, poor defense, and a penchant for turnovers (all of which he has improved, but they are still questions in terms of how he projects at the NHL level).

Mazur, meanwhile, has been criticized because the guy who drafted him also drafted his own kid, because he's an overager, and because despite having 12 goals in 12 games, he.... doesn't score enough.

These two approaches to "criticism" are not the same. The fallacy at play here is false equivalence.

 

[ChadS]

the funny thing is people say negative things about Wallinder all the time but it never draws even 1/100th of the reaction that saying anything negative about Mazur does

so maybe we should ask you what the criteria are

also they literally mentioned pro hockey in the post you quoted which sounds an awful lot like a criteria to me

I haven't seen many negative comments about Wallinder since the start of 2021-22, he's been doing really well since then. Most of the criticism was post-draft and in his first year when he really did look pretty horrible at times.

Completely off topic, but I'm really curious what's up with only capitalizing names and not using periods? No problem with it, just seems very systematic and intentional.

 

[RabidBadger]

Hey. It's not cool to misquote someone

Ricky said he hated the pick.

Which we all know means he never really cared about the pick.

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed @jaster has developed a unhealthy relationship with cantaloupe?

 

[ricky0034]

I haven't seen many negative comments about Wallinder since the start of 2021-22, he's been doing really well since then. Most of the criticism was post-draft and in his first year when he really did look pretty horrible at times.

Completely off topic, but I'm really curious what's up with only capitalizing names and not using periods? No problem with it, just seems very systematic and intentional.

just the way i've always typed so it's a habit at this point more than anything else

it was probably originally born out of laziness to be honest

 

[jaster]

I haven't seen many negative comments about Wallinder since the start of 2021-22, he's been doing really well since then. Most of the criticism was post-draft and in his first year when he really did look pretty horrible at times.

Completely off topic, but I'm really curious what's up with only capitalizing names and not using periods? No problem with it, just seems very systematic and intentional.

I was originally a strong critic of Wallinder because of the types of flaws he exhibited (some of the worst for a defenseman imo). His improvements have been encouraging and so I can't really pick on him for those flaws at the SHL level. However, like in many cases like this, my suspicion lies in just how much he has improved. Are the improvements such that those flaws aren't going to come roaring back once he's playing in the highest league in the world? Or were the improvements only good enough to clean up his game at the SHL level, and when he comes to Detroit we're going to see the low panic threshold, turnovers, and slow defense return against faster and stronger forecheckers? Because that kind of thing often happens to young guys coming up. Time will tell. At this point, I'm [very] cautiously optimistic about Wallinder.

 

[MBH]

Serious question: Why the critique of Mazur when he's outperformed his draft slot and overager tag by quite a bit?

He's being recognized by hockey outlets across North America, has played a major role at the WJC, helped his team win a national championship, and is currently in discussion for the Hobey Baker while leading the league in goals. What logical reason is there to bash this prospect's development?

Skating and skill at the pro level.
Same thing as Dylan James.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Skating and skill at the pro level.
Same thing as Dylan James.

You play ball hockey wearing shoes. Let's leaving skating assessment to people who know more about what they are looking at.

As for skill, because of the brand of hockey he generally plays, he's naturally going to look to be missing "skill" as people would like to define it.

These are the same type of comments made about why Seider doesn't project to be a #1, why Bertuzzi won't be able to achieve much in the NHL, why Kasper has limited upside.

What's funny to me is that MBH can still complain about how Mazur felt like a guy that could have been taken later in the draft and ignores the fact that he is currently outplaying his draft position by multiple rounds. This is what the scouts are supposed to do. Find good players in the draft. Bonus points if you find players who outplay their draft slot. Treating it as an indictment that they took him at 70 because they MIGHT have been able to get him at 150 is just silly. We should be singing praises that they seem to have picked a really good prospect at 70 that, as data would tell us, is a pretty freaking rare occurrence.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Skating and skill at the pro level.
Same thing as Dylan James.

His skating is above average for his current level, and so is his skill. He probably won't be better than average in either as an NHLer but the brain, drive and grit Mazur has is usually the hallmark of a player that is greater than the sum of their parts. I'm not saying he's going to be an all star, but I have trouble imagining he doesn't at least make it as a solid 3rd liner.

 

[MBH]

His skating is above average for his current level, and so is his skill. He probably won't be better than average in either as an NHLer but the brain, drive and grit Mazur has is usually the hallmark of a player that is greater than the sum of their parts. I'm not saying he's going to be an all star, but I have trouble imagining he doesn't at least make it as a solid 3rd liner.

With a guy like Maltby, back in the day, he was a plus skater and skill guy in junior. That translated into the NHL because he was MAJOR plus in the skating department. So he gets to the NHL and even if the skill's nothing special at the NHL level, his skating and motor and still big time assets - and he's a valuable role player.
What happened to Maltby when his skating was average? He became pretty useless. By this time he was ingrained in the organization and learned to be a really good penalty killer, which kept him in the NHL.

What's going to help Mazur beat out an Adam Erne type for a job, when Erne is a plus skater at the NHL level?

Not saying Mazur can't get there, but I think it's going to tough for him to win an NHL job.
The current Red Wings roster, who does Mazur beat for a job?
And our roster isn't even that good.

 

[jaster]

Who's Mazur going to beat out on the current roster? What a stupid question. He doesn't have to beat any of them out. He's at least a couple years from Detroit, at which point half the current roster will be gone.

This is still Tyler Bertuzzi discussion all over again.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

With a guy like Maltby, back in the day, he was a plus skater and skill guy in junior. That translated into the NHL because he was MAJOR plus in the skating department. So he gets to the NHL and even if the skill's nothing special at the NHL level, his skating and motor and still big time assets - and he's a valuable role player.
What happened to Maltby when his skating was average? He became pretty useless. By this time he was ingrained in the organization and learned to be a really good penalty killer, which kept him in the NHL.

What's going to help Mazur beat out an Adam Erne type for a job, when Erne is a plus skater at the NHL level?

Not saying Mazur can't get there, but I think it's going to tough for him to win an NHL job.
The current Red Wings roster, who does Mazur beat for a job?
And our roster isn't even that good.

Erne isn't a plus skater, and Mazur has better hands and a better shot than him right now.

As for who he could beat out in 2 years? Who knows? We don't even know what the roster will look like then.

 

[ricky0034]

i'll come right out and say it, I think Mazur could beat me out for a roster spot

I don't currently have one on the Wings but it's theoretically possible that I might in two years

 

[MBH]

Erne isn't a plus skater, and Mazur has better hands and a better shot than him right now.

As for who he could beat out in 2 years? Who knows? We don't even know what the roster will look like then.

Erne absolutely is a plus skater.
And Erne scored 11 goals in one 45 game season in the NHL.

He gets in fast on the forecheck and he delivers hits.
That's why he's in the NHL. His speed is why he's on the PK this year.

But Erne can also fire the puck. Yzerman talked about his offensive upside when he acquired him. He has very little playmaking skill, not unlike Mazur, but his shot and release are good.

Upside is only upside, though. Erne hasn't really flashed it very much.
But the speed/hitting/grindng is why he can stay in the NHL.