Will Ovechkin hit 20 goals this season?

[Strangle]

Ovechkin said he doesn't expect to break Gretzky's record.
That implies he's not gonna hang around as a sub-par performer just to beat Wayne.

Wayne could have tried to hang around to break 900 goals, but he had class and retired when he still had some gas in the tank but was obviously a shadow of what he once was.

If Ovechkin needs to limp passed the finish line, he should absolutely not break the record that way. It would tarnish his legacy, imo

Barry Sanders could have destroyed the rushing record books in the NFL. Instead, he gifted the rushing yards record to Emmitt smith. I hope Emmitt sends Barry a new car every year as a thank you.

Be a Barry

 

[powerbomb]

How dare the NHL let Washington fans go home upset when it's the holidays and the face of their franchise appeared to score with a minute left!! What kind of product is this that sometimes the ticket you buy doesn't let you celebrate a win?? What even is sports?!

 

[TooManyHumans]

What "most" feel like is sort of irrelevant as, as I said before, the rule is not well understood by fans (or even known). A lot of us learn the rules "as we go" and while listening to (sometimes clueless) TV announcers, rather than by actually reading the rulebook. So our understanding of a rule can often come from a mixture of past experience and several level of interpretations (A read it and explained it to B who explained it to C who explained it to D and so on - you lose information and introduce falsehoods as you go deeper in that chain).

Here's an article that DGB published in 2021 exposing some of this stuff.

Down Goes Brown: Read this post and you'll understand (almost) every goaltender interference review

Our goal is to get you to accurately predict a goaltender interference review result maybe 80 or 90 percent of the time.

theathletic.com

I have read the rule. I think the NHL applies it very unevenly. I don't think saying no one understands it is much of a defense. No one understands it because it is applied so apparently arbitrarily.

 

[wetcoast]

AI (the current popular implementation that people tend to mean right now when they say AI) would be trained with human referee data (did they on similar play call or not a penalty) and would micmic a lot of the same tendancy.

Sure that's one way it would go and then if judgment is coded in wouldn't it be the same as having human referees anyways? Plus how would AI give an on ice warning in real time to a players like' that's enough next one is a penalty"?

A computer with hardcoded rules instead (that automatically call stuff without "judgment") could be a bigger change.

That was sort of implied in the quote I was referring to by making it "perfect" and removing the human factor.

Some sport seem just too hard and you probably want game management (hockey-basket-soccer) going on, some other baseball-tennis seem more possible, but even then.... AI trained on human would have those tendency if we want, it would take is there call imbalance, overtime, playoff, etc... if those info are in the dataset.

Frankly I just don't see the point of going down this road as sports, like life is usually unfair and mistakes happen as do judgment calls.

 

[wetcoast]

Five pages of discussion about a single overturned goal for a guy that’s scored 800+ in his career.

Dude must be playing really shitty if it’s coming to that.

Well there is that.

 

[wetcoast]

Here we have an example of yet another Penguins fan chiming in to discredit Ovechkin. If you’ve read this thread you’ll notice a theme where majority of the comments come from Pittsburgh fans.

One doesn't need to be a Pens fan to see that Ovechkin's goal scoring production given his usage and watching him play to understand that he is at the end here.

No need to cloud the issue over some unseen grievance,

 

[Kairi Zaide]

I have read the rule. I think the NHL applies it very unevenly. I don't think saying no one understands it is much of a defense. No one understands it because it is applied so apparently arbitrarily.

There's definitely an issue with people understanding the rules. You have to remember the average fan isn't that big of a "rule nerd" and happens to be extremely vocal.

I cannot say that I've seen every single GI calls (either goals or overturned) in the past 2-3 years, but of those I've seen I do think they're quite consistent in their calling as a whole.

I'm curious to see which examples you're thinking of where the rule is applied "unevenly" in the past 2-3 seasons.

 

[norrisnick]

There's definitely an issue with people understanding the rules. You have to remember the average fan isn't that big of a "rule nerd" and happens to be extremely vocal.

I cannot say that I've seen every single GI calls (either goals or overturned) in the past 2-3 years, but of those I've seen I do think they're quite consistent in their calling as a whole.

I'm curious to see which examples you're thinking of where the rule is applied "unevenly" in the past 2-3 seasons.

The hundreds of goals that are allowed every single season where contact with a goalie is made.

 

[Kairi Zaide]

The hundreds of goals that are allowed every single season where contact with a goalie is made.

You are providing very concrete evidences, there. I cannot argue without any evidence being provided and due to the nature of this argument, the burden of proof is not on me (because in order to illustrate that the calls are consistent, I'd need to identify situations that you or the user i was responding to deemed inconsistent - i cannot place myself in your brains)

 

[max21]

Lol

Maxwell you need to hit the books if you read my post and concluded that it was “chiming in to discredit Ovechkin”

Lol, it’s no coincidence a majority of posters in here are Pittsburgh fans. Someone mentioning “rent free” while continuously posting in an Ovechkin thread. Since you called me by my entire first name we can be friends though

 

[chethejet]

that contract was premised on OVI breaking Gretzky goals record. OVI has a better chance of being over 250 pounds this year vs breaking that record. Malkin still has the game although he still makes head shaking errors, But no one ever in Hockey have two superstars Sid and Geno been so good for so long. Incredible.

 

[norrisnick]

You are providing very concrete evidences, there. I cannot argue without any evidence being provided and due to the nature of this argument, the burden of proof is not on me (because in order to illustrate that the calls are consistent, I'd need to identify situations that you or the user i was responding to deemed inconsistent - i cannot place myself in your brains)

There was a 6+ minute review for contact at the top of the crease on the Wings' 2nd goal last night. I haven't watched every single goal from every game last night, but I doubt it's the only one where contact was made.

 

[Kairi Zaide]

There was a 6+ minute review for contact at the top of the crease on the Wings' 2nd goal last night. I haven't watched every single goal from every game last night, but I doubt it's the only one where contact was made.

I looked at the footage, and I don't see any deliberate or intentional contact with Swayman initiated by the Wings player (as he was outside of his crease), and it appears (from the angle I've seen, so not 100% sure there) the Wings' player's stick was lifted by the Bruins d-man into Swayman's glove. You can't conclude that the Wings player made no effort to avoid the contact.

Here are the extracts I believe to be relevant for this ruling :

69.1 Interference on the Goalkeeper

Goals should be disallowed only if: (1) an attacking player, either by his positioning or by contact, impairs the goalkeeper’s ability to move freely within his crease or defend his goal; or (2) an attacking player initiates intentional or deliberate contact with a goalkeeper, inside or outside of his goal crease.

Incidental contact with a goalkeeper will be permitted, and resulting goals allowed, when such contact is initiated outside of the goal crease, provided the attacking player has made a reasonable effort to avoid such contact.

[...]

If an attacking player has been pushed, shoved, or fouled by a defending player so as to cause him to come into contact with the goalkeeper, such contact will not be deemed contact initiated by the attacking player for purposes of this rule, provided the attacking player has made a reasonable effort to avoid such contact.

69.4 Contact Outside the Goal Crease

If an attacking player initiates any contact with a goalkeeper, other than incidental contact, while the goalkeeper is outside his goal crease, and a goal is scored, the goal will be disallowed.

A goalkeeper is not “fair game” just because he is outside the goal crease. The appropriate penalty should be assessed in every case where an attacking player makes unnecessary contact with the goalkeeper.

However, incidental contact will be permitted when the goalkeeper is in the act of playing the puck outside his goal crease provided the attacking player has made a reasonable effort to avoid such unnecessary contact.

That specific ruling appears to be consistent with the rules as they are written. In any case, the initial call was also that it was a good goal, and the default in case of a grey area (even if I don't think it is one) is to stick to the call on the ice.

 

[Xoleraz]

Can Ovi stay ironclad with his health for 2.5 more seasons? If he can he really is invincible in that regard. A mere human would get a freak injury or something giving up on his body causing him to miss games.

 

[kranuck]

Wayne could have tried to hang around to break 900 goals, but he had class and retired when he still had some gas in the tank but was obviously a shadow of what he once was.

If Ovechkin needs to limp passed the finish line, he should absolutely not break the record that way. It would tarnish his legacy, imo

Barry Sanders could have destroyed the rushing record books in the NFL. Instead, he gifted the rushing yards record to Emmitt smith. I hope Emmitt sends Barry a new car every year as a thank you.

Be a Barry

Not wanting to play anymore when his body was obviously not up to it isn't classier than wanting to keep playing as long as possible.

Especially not when this is the first season where Ovie has looked like he can't do it anymore.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Caps fans- what happened to Ovi’s office? I assumed he’d be hittin 15+ on the pp for forever.

A couple of things:

- Passes haven’t been connecting cleanly. Carlson hasn’t been as good as he used to be at putting them in Ovi’s wheel house.
- Even when the pass is clean, Ovechkin inexplicably passes it right back most of the time. It looks like the angle is closed off, so he resets the play a lot instead of firing it at the D’s shin pads or into the goalie’s chest.
- Nobody else is a real threat on that PP anymore, so the PK cheats towards him more.

To me, they really need to change this PP structure. It just doesn’t work anymore. I’d like to see him start playing the bumper position once Pacioretty gets activated.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Wayne could have tried to hang around to break 900 goals, but he had class and retired when he still had some gas in the tank but was obviously a shadow of what he once was.

If Ovechkin needs to limp passed the finish line, he should absolutely not break the record that way. It would tarnish his legacy, imo

Barry Sanders could have destroyed the rushing record books in the NFL. Instead, he gifted the rushing yards record to Emmitt smith. I hope Emmitt sends Barry a new car every year as a thank you.

Be a Barry

Gretzky did not have any gas left in the tank (by his standards)

I mean if Ovechkin finishes his final seasons scoring 25 goals a season breaking the record does that really damage his legacy? I think not

 

[Toby91ca]

To answer this question bluntly, hopefully he ends with more than 20, but the refs, TO office, League, etc sure are taking away goals from him and making it a lot harder to catch Gretzky. In combination with GI/Offsides(I haven't even included the amount of posts and crossbars OV has hit), OV has now had 10 GOALS DISALLOWED in his career! I don't think any player is even close to that amount in their career!

What are you trying to say here? Goal is called back legitimately and the whole world is against Ovechkin? What are the actual stats in terms of goals disallowed by player (not that it really matters)? Also, why do you mention posts and crossbars? Those aren’t even shots on net. Are you suggesting the nets are adjusted for Ovechkins games so those hitting posts would otherwise be goals?

 

[HTFN]

A couple of things:

- Passes haven’t been connecting cleanly. Carlson hasn’t been as good as he used to be at putting them in Ovi’s wheel house.
- Even when the pass is clean, Ovechkin inexplicably passes it right back most of the time. It looks like the angle is closed off, so he resets the play a lot instead of firing it at the D’s shin pads or into the goalie’s chest.
- Nobody else is a real threat on that PP anymore, so the PK cheats towards him more.

To me, they really need to change this PP structure. It just doesn’t work anymore. I’d like to see him start playing the bumper position once Pacioretty gets activated.

It's not inexplicable, it's been right there and nobody wanted to acknowledge it: he was playing hurt and refusing shots he'd take any other year of his career, because firing them off at random was hurting like hell and he wanted to wait for the "perfect" shot, but he's never been about perfect anyway so all that happened was he'd rebound to Carlson (who rebounded to him) and the whole thing gets closed off.

The cupping marks weren't there for fun, dude had a problem. It's the same reason he wasn't hitting a lot, because upper body shit became a task. Maybe it's getting easier now that a few months have passed but this seems like a thing that happened early and his pride as a stubborn donkey who plays all the games and "never breaks" is partially responsible for not being able to do what he's always done.

His shots are suddenly coming back online, do we really think that's a systems thing or is he maybe just getting healthier and starting to find a workable zone again? Arguably the best scorer ever by the way, not just a random guy we're talking about.

What are you trying to say here? Goal is called back legitimately and the whole world is against Ovechkin? What are the actual stats in terms of goals disallowed by player (not that it really matters)? Also, why do you mention posts and crossbars? Those aren’t even shots on net. Are you suggesting the nets are adjusted for Ovechkins games so those hitting posts would otherwise be goals?

The point is pretty clearly that the margin for error in a lot of cases has been really slim and if even a few bounces worked or seconds lined up, he'd be sitting on a goal number nobody questioned at all.

 

[vipera1960]

Wayne could have tried to hang around to break 900 goals, but he had class and retired when he still had some gas in the tank but was obviously a shadow of what he once was.

If Ovechkin needs to limp passed the finish line, he should absolutely not break the record that way. It would tarnish his legacy, imo

Barry Sanders could have destroyed the rushing record books in the NFL. Instead, he gifted the rushing yards record to Emmitt smith. I hope Emmitt sends Barry a new car every year as a thank you.

Be a Barry

Gretzky only managed 9 goals in ‘98-99 (his age 37-38 season. He wouldn’t have ever come close to 900.

 

[Strangle]

Gretzky only managed 9 goals in ‘98-99 (his age 37-38 season. He wouldn’t have ever come close to 900.

He was 10x closer to 900 than Ovechkin is to Gretzky right now

 

[rick6668]

Gretzky only managed 9 goals in ‘98-99 (his age 37-38 season. He wouldn’t have ever come close to 900.

6 goals away from 900 isn't close?

 

[Overrated]

Yes

 

[snag]

Gretzky only managed 9 goals in ‘98-99 (his age 37-38 season. He wouldn’t have ever come close to 900.

894 is pretty damn close....but he never had anything to prove to anyone by that point.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Gretzky only managed 9 goals in ‘98-99 (his age 37-38 season. He wouldn’t have ever come close to 900.

Ok that is just silly too.

Alot of sillyness in this thread