Why will this team not go all in?

[Bomber0104]

There's more to evaluating GMs and coaches than exclusively playoff series wins and losses with zero context.

No actually that’s all that this team is being judged on at this point and what will be the reason Dubas gets his pink slip after next year if they lose yet another first round.

99% of the hockey world values winning the Stanley Cup over virtually anything that may happen in the regular season.

Only 1% of people that are out there trying to hype up the Leafs GM who’s delivered constant failure would argue otherwise..

 

[andora]

I'm not sure what you mean by "3rd leaf on ice reason", but if I had to pinpoint another disappointing performance by a Leaf player, it would probably be Lyubushkin.

Campbell was -1.1 GSAx over the series. That's not really what you want from your goalie.

You answered.. you guess right

Thank you, so basically Campbell, 4th line, and Lybushkin. It is a shame, if only that collective group that must be pushing.. what.. 6, 7% of collective cap expensive combined - if that group could have only done just a bit more.

 

[mikeyz]

This board is full of people who are emotionally stable and are able to analyze how the series actually played out and where they currently stand in comparison to the competition. Then again this board is so big there's ton of people having emotional mental breakdowns.

You can carefully analyze how the series went all you want. The bottom line is, they lost in the first round!....... Again.

 

[Dekes For Days]

No actually that’s all that this team is being judged on at this point

While you as a fan may only care about playoff series wins and losses with zero context, there is more to properly evaluating GMs and coaches and how they are performing than exclusively looking at that and nothing else.

Thank you, so basically Campbell, 4th line, and Lybushkin. It is a shame, if only that collective group that must be pushing.. what.. 6, 7% of collective cap expensive combined - if that group could have only done just a bit more.

Just because somebody doesn't make a huge amount of money, it doesn't mean they aren't responsible for their role or performing to their ability. Those were the most disappointing parts of the team in the playoffs.

I guess we shouldn't have expected anything out of Matthews/Marner from 2016-2019, since they were on ELCs, right?
And I wonder why Florida wanted to trade Bobrovsky! If they went with Knight, they wouldn't be allowed to expect more than a negative GSAx from their starting goalie!
And Nick Paul was only 750k against Tampa's cap. Somebody should have told him he didn't have to try in game 7!

 

[Nineteen67]

While you as a fan may only care about playoff series wins and losses with zero context, there is more to properly evaluating GMs and coaches and how they are performing than exclusively looking at that and nothing else.

Yep…management is evaluated by success on the ice and revenue. In the Leafs’ case, lost revenues.

Simmons Says, July 31, 2022.

“In the Brendan Shanahan era, Tampa Bay has played 155 playoff games. The Leafs have played 39. If you add it up, that’s about an additional $100 million or so in playoff revenue for the club that the Lightning has taken and the Leafs have not”

 

[andora]

While you as a fan may only care about playoff series wins and losses with zero context, there is more to properly evaluating GMs and coaches and how they are performing than exclusively looking at that and nothing else.

Just because somebody doesn't make a huge amount of money, it doesn't mean they aren't responsible for their role or performing to their ability. Those were the most disappointing parts of the team in the playoffs.

I guess we shouldn't have expected anything out of Matthews/Marner from 2016-2019, since they were on ELCs, right?
And I wonder why Florida wanted to trade Bobrovsky! If they went with Knight, they wouldn't be allowed to expect more than a negative GSAx from their starting goalie!
And Nick Paul was only 750k against Tampa's cap. Somebody should have told him he didn't have to try in game 7!

For someone who nails everyone to wall for bringing up random things in a discussion this last bit is pretty silly

I dont wven understand the ELC comment.. since we only had one on defence that played

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yep…management is evaluated by success on the ice and revenue. In the Leafs’ case, lost revenues.

Revenue is one of the least relevant things that MLSE would look at when evaluating a GM or head coach. That would be more relevant to business-related positions in the organization than hockey-related positions.

 

[Dekes For Days]

For someone who nails everyone to wall for bringing up random things in a discussion this last bit is pretty silly
I dont wven understand the ELC comment.. since we only had one on defence that played

There's nothing random about anything said there. You seemed to suggest that we can't identify the parts of the team that didn't perform to their role or ability, if they don't make a bunch of money. So I showed how silly that line of thinking is. I didn't say anything about ELCs on defense, so not sure what you're referring to.

 

[Nineteen67]

Revenue is one of the least relevant things that MLSE would look at when evaluating a GM or head coach. That would be more relevant to business-related positions in the organization than hockey-related positions.

Head coach, yes. However, number one item for the president and GM

 

[Dekes For Days]

Head coach, yes. However, number one item for the president and GM

That is not the number one consideration for a GM's performance at all. Especially in Toronto.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

I agree with those who think that the "all in" move was the Tavares signing.

Since then, the cap has stagnated and it's logical to speculate that this has hampered Dubas significantly. We've been forced to adapt relying more on bargain bin signings and young players than management likely anticipated.

Fortunately, Dubas has been pretty good at finding bargain contracts to come in and support the team.


The stagnant cap is taking it's toll on everyone, but Dubas definitely got caught with his pants down on that one. We seem to be in an NHL where there are too many teams needing to move cap and not enough teams to accommodate them.

I don't buy this new pro Dubas propaganda going around. It's a canned excuse waiting to be opened when he gets fired this season.

Ok so he signed Tavares before Covid 19. So what?! It was risky then. Very risky. It meant that all the other stars would no doubt play better and ask for more or comparable salaries.

I'm sure many knowledgeable people on this board knew it was risky. I'm sure many predicted they TOR was going to have a top heavy structure before MM/AM signed.

Let us not forget that Dubas has had plenty of time to adjust. He still has time!

If I were to reflect on what's been going on during Dubas' tenure I'd say that the 2021 trade deadline was Dubas' All in moment: Nash, Foligno, Hutton, Rittich, etc. All of which was complete and total abject failure.

 

[Clyde Brewer]

Revenue is one of the least relevant things that MLSE would look at when evaluating a GM or head coach. That would be more relevant to business-related positions in the organization than hockey-related positions.

So, results and revenue are among the least important factors in evaluating a GM?

Where are you getting this from?

 

[ACC1224]

Yep…management is evaluated by success on the ice and revenue. In the Leafs’ case, lost revenues.

Simmons Says, July 31, 2022.

“In the Brendan Shanahan era, Tampa Bay has played 155 playoff games. The Leafs have played 39. If you add it up, that’s about an additional $100 million or so in playoff revenue for the club that the Lightning has taken and the Leafs have not”

Yikes, looks even worse when you look at it that way. This here is the #1 reason why this season will be their last chance for success. Board members(like some here) may not understand hockey but they certainly understand lost revenue.

 

[Commander Clueless]

I don't buy this new pro Dubas propaganda going around. It's a canned excuse waiting to be opened when he gets fired this season.

Ok so he signed Tavares before Covid 19. So what?! It was risky then. Very risky. It meant that all the other stars would no doubt play better and ask for more or comparable salaries.

I'm sure many knowledgeable people on this board knew it was risky. I'm sure many predicted they TOR was going to have a top heavy structure before MM/AM signed.

Let us not forget that Dubas has had plenty of time to adjust. He still has time!

If I were to reflect on what's been going on during Dubas' tenure I'd say that the 2021 trade deadline was Dubas' All in moment: Nash, Foligno, Hutton, Rittich, etc. All of which was complete and total abject failure.

I don't know that I'd consider what I said pro-Dubas necessarily.

I'm applauding him for finding good bargain contracts while simultaneously saying he gambled and lost when it came to contracts.

I agree that his adjustments haven't been enough.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

So, results and revenue are among the least important factors in evaluating a GM?

Where are you getting this from?

From his Dekes for Dubas talking points handbook.

The Toronto Maple Leafs are majority owned by Rogers and Bell which are publicly traded companies.

The Leafs winning extra rounds in the playoffs would equate to enormous added revenue in the form of ticket sales, advertising and merchandise sales.

To say so confidently, on behalf of all shareholders, that two large, publicly traded media companies, effectively don’t care about team revenues is beyond ridiculous.

 

[andora]

From his Dekes for Dubas talking points handbook.

The Toronto Maple Leafs are majority owned by Rogers and Bell which are publicly traded companies.

The Leafs winning extra rounds in the playoffs would equate to enormous added revenue in the form of ticket sales, advertising and merchandise sales.

To say so confidently, on behalf of all shareholders, that two large, publicly traded media companies, effectively don’t care about team revenues is beyond ridiculous.

So you guys are arguing for expected revenue over actual revenue?

See.. he is turning you. Its a process.

 

[andora]

There's nothing random about anything said there. You seemed to suggest that we can't identify the parts of the team that didn't perform to their role or ability, if they don't make a bunch of money. So I showed how silly that line of thinking is. I didn't say anything about ELCs on defense, so not sure what you're referring to.

Incorrect on what i was suggesting. Personally i expected more out of the big 4.. maybe a bit more based in necessity than reality (they didnt look like they could do anything after tavares goal called off)

When your bottom two lines cant produce anything the last two games out of necessity the players paid the most for their impact on the team needed to do more. Game 7 was a true disappointment for myself on those players. 1 goal from the Dman.

 

[Stamkos4life]

I don't buy this new pro Dubas propaganda going around. It's a canned excuse waiting to be opened when he gets fired this season.

Ok so he signed Tavares before Covid 19. So what?! It was risky then. Very risky. It meant that all the other stars would no doubt play better and ask for more or comparable salaries.

I'm sure many knowledgeable people on this board knew it was risky. I'm sure many predicted they TOR was going to have a top heavy structure before MM/AM signed.

Let us not forget that Dubas has had plenty of time to adjust. He still has time!

If I were to reflect on what's been going on during Dubas' tenure I'd say that the 2021 trade deadline was Dubas' All in moment: Nash, Foligno, Hutton, Rittich, etc. All of which was complete and total abject failure.

The pro dubas propaganda has been going on for at least 3 years now.

Lou is hated for not winning a single round despite him taking over a bottom 5 team and being let go just three years later.

Dubas now has four seasons after inheriting a 105 point season and we are still waiting for the first round win.

But somehow nothing is dubas' fault.

 

[zeke]

The pro dubas propaganda has been going on for at least 3 years now.

Lou is hated for not winning a single round despite him taking over a bottom 5 team and being let go just three years later.

Dubas now has four seasons after inheriting a 105 point season and we are still waiting for the first round win.

But somehow nothing is dubas' fault.

Yep, Lou is criticized for being unable to ice an elite team despite having the best group of elite ELC talent in hockey, while Dubas is praised for icing an elite team despite having no elite ELC talent.

 

[Bomber0104]

Yep, Lou is criticized for being unable to ice an elite team despite having the best group of elite ELC talent in hockey, while Dubas is praised for icing an elite team despite having no elite ELC talent.

So in summary…

Expectations for Lou: winning a Cup the year or two after finishing in dead last place

Expectations for Kyle Dubas: not winning a playoff series after 4 tries after inheriting a 105 perennial playoff team

This makes a lot of sense clearly

 

[Bomber0104]

The pro dubas propaganda has been going on for at least 3 years now.

Lou is hated for not winning a single round despite him taking over a bottom 5 team and being let go just three years later.

Dubas now has four seasons after inheriting a 105 point season and we are still waiting for the first round win.

But somehow nothing is dubas' fault.

Someone other than Kyle Dubas must be blamed for Kyle Dubas not having the competency to take a 105 playoff team into the second round of the playoffs over 4 years.

It’s almost impressive how poorly he’s done here but the issue is still obviously the guy who took the team from last to playoffs, 5 years ago…

It’s a joke.

 

[Felix the Cat Potvin]

Yep, Lou is criticized for being unable to ice an elite team despite having the best group of elite ELC talent in hockey, while Dubas is praised for icing an elite team despite having no elite ELC talent.

Elite players > "elite ELC talent"

Teams win with elite players, not "elite ELC talent."

Dubas inherited elite players and can't win with them.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

So you guys are arguing for expected revenue over actual revenue?

See.. he is turning you. Its a process.

xRev/60

 

[Racer88]

That is not the number one consideration for a GM's performance at all. Especially in Toronto.

What else could there possibly be other then wins or losses and success in evaluating a GM’s performance?

 

[Dekes For Days]

So, results and revenue are among the least important factors in evaluating a GM?

I didn't say results are among the least important factors in evaluating a GM. There are just more "results" than exclusively looking at whether a team won or lost their playoff series with zero context. A small group of fans here may see things in such simplistic, black and white terms because it helps them hate on a GM they dislike, but that's not how businesses are run.

Revenue may be important for some teams, but that's more on the business side of things. GMs in the NHL are primarily concerned with the hockey side of things, and that's primarily what they're being evaluated on. And of any team, Toronto would probably be the least concerned with revenues.

The quote itself is highly problematic too, for a number of reasons.

1. It's not even showing revenues. It's basically just looking at playoff series wins and losses again, and talking specifically about revenues associated with that.
2. The revenue discrepancy being claimed seems to be a random guess and not based on anything.
3. The comparison is being made to Tampa, who has played significantly more playoff games than literally every single team in the league over that timeframe, not just Toronto.
4. His numbers are wrong. Tampa has had 135 playoff games in the Shanahan era, not 155.
5. Total playoff games would be completely irrelevant anyway, as teams only make revenue on home games.
6. The timeframe is also intentionally misleading, since Tampa has been in a competitive phase throughout the entire "Shanahan era", while Shanahan came in here and started a rebuild first. The board was prepared for a slow, painful, 5 year rebuild featuring zero playoff revenues throughout.

No surprise this ridiculous quote was said by Steve Simmons - the biggest joke in Toronto sports media.

Game 7 was a true disappointment for myself on those players. 1 goal from the Dman.

1 goal from a Dman... set up by Matthews and Marner. And another goal scored by Tavares. Which I'm pretty sure would have been assisted by Matthews as well. The big 4 were easily our best players. They would be at the end of the list of reasons we lost, especially in game 7.

Elite players > "elite ELC talent"

That's not necessarily true. Elite ELC talent is among the most beneficial things you can have in hockey, as the discrepancy between their restricted pay and impact is so massive.

What else could there possibly be other then wins or losses and success in evaluating a GM’s performance?

You evaluate them on how they are performing at their duties, and how the teams they are building are performing. This involves much, much, much more than just looking up whether a team won or lost a playoff series with zero context.