Why will this team not go all in?

[Nineteen67]

From his Dekes for Dubas talking points handbook.

The Toronto Maple Leafs are majority owned by Rogers and Bell which are publicly traded companies.

The Leafs winning extra rounds in the playoffs would equate to enormous added revenue in the form of ticket sales, advertising and merchandise sales.

To say so confidently, on behalf of all shareholders, that two large, publicly traded media companies, effectively don’t care about team revenues is beyond ridiculous.

Because the customer base is too loyal, management can easily increase ticket and concession prices and haven’t been forced to tap into the largest opportunity for revenue and profit.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Because the customer base is too loyal, management can easily increase ticket and concession prices and haven’t been forced to tap into the largest opportunity for revenue and profit.

The proof that they just don’t care came in the season ending presser where everyone was pretty much patting each other on the back for another successful season. 115 points and taking the SC champs to 7 games. And there are fans saying how much they love Marner/Matthews and they can’t wait to see them again next season. Of course management and ownership don’t care.

 

[andora]

1 goal from a Dman... set up by Matthews and Marner. And another goal scored by Tavares. Which I'm pretty sure would have been assisted by Matthews as well. The big 4 were easily our best players. They would be at the end of the list of reasons we lost, especially in game 7.

Agree to disagree - it would need to be a long superfluous list for me to have them at the bottom

Cant fall back on saying they were our best players as a defence when someone says they expectes more out of them. They were, and should have been - so they did their job to be the best on the team if we were making a list

They needed to do more and as this team is constructed it will remain that way. My opinion anyway and that was my game 7 disappointment. I had several others but that would be my main one - 0 goals (tavares goal did not count) from 40 million dollars

 

[Dekes For Days]

Cant fall back on saying they were our best players as a defence when someone says they expectes more out of them. They were, and should have been - so they did their job to be the best on the team if we were making a list

You asked for the biggest on-ice reasons that we lost. They played very well and did their jobs. They were not the reason we lost. Others did not play to their role and ability. "Expecting more of them" doesn't seem to be based on any objective evaluation of how they actually played. It seems to just be based on seeing that we lost, seeing that they're high paid, and arbitrarily blaming them for any team shortcoming.

0 goals (tavares goal did not count) from 40 million dollars

Which again is very misleading, because even if just looking at production, Matthews/Marner set up the first goal, and regardless of what you personally think about the horrible call to erase our goal, Tavares put the puck in the net (with Matthews likely assisting) and had nothing to do with the goal being stolen away. In contrast, Tampa won game 7 with their star forwards doing absolutely nothing.

 

[andora]

You asked for the biggest on-ice reasons that we lost. They played very well and did their jobs. They were not the reason we lost. Others did not play to their role and ability. "Expecting more of them" doesn't seem to be based on any objective evaluation of how they actually played. It seems to just be based on seeing that we lost, seeing that they're high paid, and arbitrarily blaming them for any team shortcoming.

Which again is very misleading, because even if just looking at production, Matthews/Marner set up the first goal, and regardless of what you personally think about the horrible call to erase our goal, Tavares put the puck in the net (with Matthews likely assisting) and had nothing to do with the goal being stolen away. In contrast, Tampa won game 7 with their star forwards doing absolutely nothing.

What should the fourth line have done to matched their expected output - what did they fail at?

What should lybushkin have done to match his expected output - what did he fail at?

Which again is very misleading, because even if just looking at production,

You say production
I said goals

 

[Nineteen67]

The proof that they just don’t care came in the season ending presser where everyone was pretty much patting each other on the back for another successful season. 115 points and taking the SC champs to 7 games. And there are fans saying how much they love Marner/Matthews and they can’t wait to see them again next season. Of course management and ownership don’t care.

Tannenbaum is not accustomed to winning (sports related he’s obviously won in the boardroom) and is easily sold by Shanny‘s claim they are close. And they were and if two or four guys pull their end of the rope they could’ve advanced.

The target they had on the wall with the Cup on it has been taken down and the new goal of this management group is win one round and sign extensions.

 

[weems]

I didn't say results are among the least important factors in evaluating a GM. There are just more "results" than exclusively looking at whether a team won or lost their playoff series with zero context. A small group of fans here may see things in such simplistic, black and white terms because it helps them hate on a GM they dislike, but that's not how businesses are run.

Revenue may be important for some teams, but that's more on the business side of things. GMs in the NHL are primarily concerned with the hockey side of things, and that's primarily what they're being evaluated on. And of any team, Toronto would probably be the least concerned with revenues.

The quote itself is highly problematic too, for a number of reasons.

1. It's not even showing revenues. It's basically just looking at playoff series wins and losses again, and talking specifically about revenues associated with that.
2. The revenue discrepancy being claimed seems to be a random guess and not based on anything.
3. The comparison is being made to Tampa, who has played significantly more playoff games than literally every single team in the league over that timeframe, not just Toronto.
4. His numbers are wrong. Tampa has had 135 playoff games in the Shanahan era, not 155.
5. Total playoff games would be completely irrelevant anyway, as teams only make revenue on home games.
6. The timeframe is also intentionally misleading, since Tampa has been in a competitive phase throughout the entire "Shanahan era", while Shanahan came in here and started a rebuild first. The board was prepared for a slow, painful, 5 year rebuild featuring zero playoff revenues throughout.

No surprise this ridiculous quote was said by Steve Simmons - the biggest joke in Toronto sports media.

1 goal from a Dman... set up by Matthews and Marner. And another goal scored by Tavares. Which I'm pretty sure would have been assisted by Matthews as well. The big 4 were easily our best players. They would be at the end of the list of reasons we lost, especially in game 7.

That's not necessarily true. Elite ELC talent is among the most beneficial things you can have in hockey, as the discrepancy between their restricted pay and impact is so massive.

You evaluate them on how they are performing at their duties, and how the teams they are building are performing. This involves much, much, much more than just looking up whether a team won or lost a playoff series with zero context.

It would have actually been assisted by Bunting and Holl.

Bunting received pass from Matthews behind the net. Bunting then passed it back to Holl. Holl fired it down the boards and Matthews let it go by him without touching it and Tavares picked it up.

 

[colchar]

Miller and Chychrun have been on the market since well before the trade deadline last year. Both have reasonable contracts many teams could fit in. 30 other GM are unwilling to meet the trade demands of Arizona and Vancouver. Doesn’t that tell you something?

Stop being so sensible. The OP has put a lot of thought into this, or at least he thinks he has.

 

[colchar]

things are very even until something happens

Man, that is some mind-bogglingly astute analysis right there. How insight like that hasn't landed you a job running an NHL team is shocking, absolutely shocking.

I like many others thought the solution is to go get a top goalie. Ok, he doesn't do that, instead gambles on some boom or bust projects. Ok, I get it, I get the logic. We don't want to do that in goal, instead you think you have something here.

THEN UPGRADE ELSEWHERE. We either need more scoring (IMO this is it) or we need to prevent more goals. Management is happy with our defense and goaltending. So we need more scoring. We need another top line winger to give this team more depth and someone else who can shift the tide for us.

But no, we'll prioritize elc contracts for players who will be playing depth roles for us, when we've already proven we can get these league min players to fill the same roles.

Before you start your job as the President & GM of the NHL's next Cup winning dynasty maybe you might want to Google 'NHL salary cap' and what it means.

The proof that they just don’t care came in the season ending presser where everyone was pretty much patting each other on the back for another successful season. 115 points and taking the SC champs to 7 games.

Hell, there are fans here lauding those regular season numbers as if they are some meaningful achievement.

 

[Dekes For Days]

What should the fourth line have done to matched their expected output - what did they fail at?
What should lybushkin have done to match his expected output - what did he fail at?

Our 4th line got outplayed, produced very little in a sheltered role, and took bad penalties. Lyubushkin also got outplayed, dragged down Rielly, and took the most penalties on the team.
Lyubushkin and 4th line players were the only players on the team to have a negative goal differential in the series, for the record.

You say production
I said goals

Yes, you cherry picked goals, and ignored Tavares putting the puck in the net, and I took a slightly wider and more accurate look at their contributions.

 

[zeke]

Hey guys we outplayed and outscored the Bolts.

 

[andora]

Our 4th line got outplayed, produced very little in a sheltered role, and took bad penalties. Lyubushkin also got outplayed, dragged down Rielly, and took the most penalties on the team.
Lyubushkin and 4th line players were the only players on the team to have a negative goal differential in the series, for the record.

Yes, you cherry picked goals, and ignored Tavares putting the puck in the net, and I took a slightly wider and more accurate look at their contributions.

Well sadly sometimes you get what you pay for. I dont recall them taking penalties later in the series.. maybe they did i dont recall.

Lybushkin is a third pair right dman that was played out of his element and ability.. in my opinion - again you get what you pay for and forcing him into an inappropriate role

And yes i cherry picked goals because we didnt have enough of them. We havent had enough of them in a long time in big game moments - the wider we can go looking at contributions is nice and can create some justification.

We need playoff series to be best of 15s.. that might be long enough to have models and law of averages provide the expected results.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Which again is very misleading, because even if just looking at production, Matthews/Marner set up the first goal, and regardless of what you personally think about the horrible call to erase our goal, Tavares put the puck in the net (with Matthews likely assisting) and had nothing to do with the goal being stolen away. In contrast, Tampa won game 7 with their star forwards doing absolutely nothing.

Regardless of how you spin it, the Tavares 'goal', and even the opportunity for his shot, existed only because of a blatantly obvious illegal play by another Leaf, so the penalty was correct, and nothing was "stolen away".

If the Leafs star forwards did nothing and the Tampa star forwards did nothing, then obviously the difference was in the remaining players, and those, or more correctly whoever hired and/or deployed them, are really the people responsible for the loss.

 

[Stamkos4life]

So in summary…

Expectations for Lou: winning a Cup the year or two after finishing in dead last place

Expectations for Kyle Dubas: not winning a playoff series after 4 tries after inheriting a 105 perennial playoff team

This makes a lot of sense clearly

Before Lou, we had made the PO once in about a dozen seasons. We hadn't played in the PO twice in a row since ~03. The guy took over a bottom 5 team and within 3 years, left behind one of the most promising teams in the league.

The fact the dubas fan boys hate him despite all the good he did in turning around the Leafs is insane.

There is no logic with them.

 

[ACC1224]

Regardless of how you spin it, the Tavares 'goal', and even the opportunity for his shot, existed only because of a blatantly obvious illegal play by another Leaf, so the penalty was correct, and nothing was "stolen away".

If the Leafs star forwards did nothing and the Tampa star forwards did nothing, then obviously the difference was in the remaining players, and those, or more correctly whoever hired and/or deployed them, are really the people responsible for the loss.

100%.

Before Lou, we had made the PO once in about a dozen seasons. We hadn't played in the PO twice in a row since ~03. The guy took over a bottom 5 team and within 3 years, left behind one of the most promising teams in the league.

The fact the dubas fan boys hate him despite all the good he did in turning around the Leafs is insane.

There is no logic with them.

100%

 

[Dekes For Days]

Well sadly sometimes you get what you pay for.

They were not paid to play like that. You seem to think that somebody being paid less absolves them of any responsibility for what they brought to the team, and means they don't need to play to their role and ability. Tampa spent a similar amount on their bottom-six, and the only goals scored by Tampa in game 7 came from somebody who cost 750k against their cap. Did Tampa "get what they paid for"?

Lybushkin is a third pair right dman that was played out of his element and ability.

He was sheltered and carried and still provided mostly negatives. That's not good enough, and is a much bigger reason for the loss than anything the big 4 did.

And yes i cherry picked goals because we didnt have enough of them.

Goals are not created solely by the person who puts the puck in the net, and you even blamed somebody who did actually put the puck in the net.

the Tavares 'goal', and even the opportunity for his shot, existed only because of a blatantly obvious illegal play by another Leaf

1. That's not true. The play in question had little impact on the goal.
2. The play was not "blatantly obviously illegal". It's the type of play that happens all the time and never gets called, much less in a one-goal playoff game 7. Way, way, way, way, way worse stuff was let go in the series, even when it directly led to goals. It was objectively a horrible call.
3. Regardless of what you think, Tavares put the puck in the net, and it being stolen had nothing to do what anything Tavares did. Tavares stepped up.

If the Leafs star forwards did nothing

The Leaf star forwards didn't do nothing.

 

[zeke]

Hey guys we outplayed and outscored the Bolts.

^^^

 

[andora]

They were not paid to play like that. You seem to think that somebody being paid less absolves them of any responsibility for what they brought to the team, and means they don't need to play to their role and ability. Tampa spent a similar amount on their bottom-six, and the only goals scored by Tampa in game 7 came from somebody who cost 750k against their cap. Did Tampa "get what they paid for"?

Paid to play like what? What am i thinking they were supposed to play like

I accept that players that make the least on average provide the least - one of which being consistency and another mistakes. While i dont agree these players were at the top of the list for reasons they lost .. "if" you permit them being called depth i do agree that the depth was a main factor in losing arguably more so on the offensive end.

They were not paid to play like that. You seem to think that somebody being paid less absolves them of any responsibility for what they brought to the team, and means they don't need to play to their role and ability. Tampa spent a similar amount on their bottom-six, and the only goals scored by Tampa in game 7 came from somebody who cost 750k against their cap. Did Tampa "get what they paid for"?

He was sheltered and carried and still provided mostly negatives. That's not good enough, and is a much bigger reason for the loss than anything the big 4 did

What was his expectation that he failed to accomplish?

Goals are not created solely by the person who puts the puck in the net, and you even blamed somebody who did actually put the puck in the net.

Specifically to game 7.. who? Tavares? Great but it didnt count.. negated by a penalty.

1. That's not true. The play in question had little impact on the goal.
2. The play was not "blatantly obviously illegal". It's the type of play that happens all the time and never gets called, much less in a one-goal playoff game 7. Way, way, way, way, way worse stuff was let go in the series, even when it directly led to goals. It was objectively a horrible call.
3. Regardless of what you think, Tavares put the puck in the net, and it being stolen had nothing to do what anything Tavares did. Tavares stepped up.

Such bullshit

this play gets called all the time at the blueline. Holl chose to do it in the center of the play near the crease

 

[Racer88]

Hey guys we outplayed and outscored the Bolts.

And still we lost

 

[Racer88]

So basically our 4th line played like crap and that’s why we lost where as the 4 players who eat up 50% of the cap didn’t score a single legit goal in game 7. Interesting but that leads me to think that our 4 line is populated by crappy players. Is it because we don’t have enough cap room to get good productive 4 line players or is it because Dubas has no clue how to evaluate and procure quality 4th line players…….heck maybe it’s because they decide, you know what we should play like crap this series

 

[Dekes For Days]

Paid to play like what?

They were not paid to be outplayed in sheltered roles, take penalties, and provide few positives. You don't need to pay 4th liners and #6 defensemen more than what they were paid to expect more than that.

I accept that players that make the least on average provide the least

Players evolve, and the existence of term and restricted contracts like ELCs means that salary does not always equate to what one is expected to provide, but generally yes, the higher your pay, the more impact you are expected to have - and our higher paid players did provide the most impact. That doesn't mean the lesser paid players are absolved of all responsibility, and can have a negative impact instead of playing to their role and ability.

Specifically to game 7.. who? Tavares?

Yes, you excluded everything that didn't involve specifically putting the puck in the net, and then excluded the puck being put in the net by Tavares - one of the players you blamed - because of something that had nothing to do with Tavares.

this play gets called all the time at the blueline.

That kind of play happens all of the time and never gets called. In all my time watching hockey, I don't think I've ever seen something like that called, and considering all of the way, way, way worse infractions that were being let go, calling that and waiving off a goal in a one-goal playoff game 7 is laughably and suspiciously horrendous. Especially after basically handing Tampa game 6.

 

[andora]

They were not paid to be outplayed in sheltered roles, take penalties, and provide few positives. You don't need to pay 4th liners and #6 defensemen more than what they were paid to expect more than that.

the last 3 games i'm not sure who was taking penalties? i remember them tightening up quite a bit.

Kase was bad i think it was the blowout, but Kampf's delay of game specifically i remember being horrible

Players evolve, and the existence of term and restricted contracts like ELCs means that salary does not always equate to what one is expected to provide, but generally yes, the higher your pay, the more impact you are expected to have - and our higher paid players did provide the most impact. That doesn't mean the lesser paid players are absolved of all responsibility, and can have a negative impact instead of playing to their role and ability.

i am not trying to absolve them of all responsibility - you have twisted this. quote me where i said these players have NO fault in the team losing.

Yes, you excluded everything that didn't involve specifically putting the puck in the net, and then excluded the puck being put in the net by Tavares - one of the players you blamed - because of something that had nothing to do with Tavares.

we have to exclude a goal that didn't count? - and yes tavares was in the group i was disappointed with specifically in game 7.

That kind of play happens all of the time and never gets called. In all my time watching hockey, I don't think I've ever seen something like that called, and considering all of the way, way, way worse infractions that were being let go, calling that and waiving off a goal in a one-goal playoff game 7 is laughably and suspiciously horrendous. Especially after basically handing Tampa game 6.

i personally look at that as this year's excuse - because other stuff was let go we were robbed because it shouldn't have happened.. i can't say anything else about this really i don't think. it happened directly where the puck carrier going to the middle was - directly in the viewpoint of the referee - where lots of things that were let go (some were penalties both sides) were let go were not directly in the center of the play.

penalties were missed both ways - i don't know how else to view this in my own mind. what i DO know is if it were the other way around and not called - and i would bet my house on this - that it would be the focal point as a missed call.

 

[Racer88]

The proof that they just don’t care came in the season ending presser where everyone was pretty much patting each other on the back for another successful season. 115 points and taking the SC champs to 7 games. And there are fans saying how much they love Marner/Matthews and they can’t wait to see them again next season. Of course management and ownership don’t care.

That was totally embarrassing

 

[Fogelhund]

So basically our 4th line played like crap and that’s why we lost where as the 4 players who eat up 50% of the cap didn’t score a single legit goal in game 7. Interesting but that leads me to think that our 4 line is populated by crappy players. Is it because we don’t have enough cap room to get good productive 4 line players or is it because Dubas has no clue how to evaluate and procure quality 4th line players…….heck maybe it’s because they decide, you know what we should play like crap this series

You do realize that it’s been posted numerous times that our bottom six budget is roughly the same as other contenders.

 

[Dekes For Days]

the last 3 games i'm not sure who was taking penalties?

I don't know off the top of my head when each penalty was taken, and I don't really care. You can't just ignore more than half of the series anyway.

i am not trying to absolve them of all responsibility

Except that's exactly what you're attempting to do. It can't be their fault because they get paid less,, even though they're the ones that didn't play to their lesser expectations, role, and ability.

we have to exclude a goal that didn't count?

No, if you're looking at how the top players performed, Tavares stepping up and putting the puck in the net is relevant - especially when you're arbitrarily excluding all other contributions.

i personally look at that as this year's excuse - because other stuff was let go we were robbed

It was a bad call regardless of what was previously let go. We were robbed because mere minutes away from advancing, the refs took over the series and made a number of horrendous calls in critical moments that directly impacted the outcome of two separate elimination games.

lots of things that were let go were let go were not directly in the center of the play.

Countless way worse things were let go, including stuff in prime locations, and stuff that directly influenced scoring plays.

FFS, we literally had a Tampa player waterskiing on the back of Matthews' jersey for like a good 5 seconds in the slot in game 6 OT.