Why will this team not go all in?

[Suntouchable13]

Well, it it’s roughly the same as other contenders that means Dubas is a lousy GM. He makes me laugh. He thinks getting Murray, Samsonov, Aube-Kubel, Jarnkrok makes this team a better contender than last year. He has lost the plot completely.

 

[andora]

I don't know off the top of my head when each penalty was taken, and I don't really care. You can't just ignore more than half of the series anyway.

not ignoring but as it went on they stopped taking penalties. just is

Except that's exactly what you're attempting to do. It can't be their fault because they get paid less,, even though they're the ones that didn't play to their lesser expectations, role, and ability.

since you didn't quote me i guess i didn't say it. on the construction of this roster, the 3rd line and 4th line are not absolved from fault but personally i don't believe the fourth line is a top 3 reason they lost. this roster is contructed where the types of players that play on the fourth line just have to survive their shifts. as the series went on they started surviving, the last 2 games, potential to move on games they survived.

No, if you're looking at how the top players performed, Tavares stepping up and putting the puck in the net is relevant - especially when you're arbitrarily excluding all other contributions.

fine, count the fake goal, still needed one more

It was a bad call regardless of what was previously let go. We were robbed because mere minutes away from advancing, the refs took over the series and made a number of horrendous calls in critical moments that directly impacted the outcome of two separate elimination games.

Countless way worse things were let go, including stuff in prime locations, and stuff that directly influenced scoring plays.

FFS, we literally had a Tampa player waterskiing on the back of Matthews' jersey for like a good 5 seconds in the slot in game 6 OT.

then bitch about that missed call - not the penalty called in the epicenter of the play.

 

[Racer88]

You do realize that it’s been posted numerous times that our bottom six budget is roughly the same as other contenders.

I do know that, so I guess it’s because Dubas has no idea how to evaluate bottom 6 talent Because obviously he is not getting the value he is paying for.

Well, it it’s roughly the same as other contenders that means Dubas is a lousy GM. He makes me laugh. He thinks getting Murray, Samsonov, Aube-Kubel, Jarnkrok makes this team a better contender than last year. He has lost the plot completely.

Lol. That was the point I was leading towards and someone helped me make it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

this roster is contructed where the types of players that play on the fourth line just have to survive their shifts.

Not only is that not true, but they didn't "survive their shifts". That's the problem. They got outplayed and outscored by the bottom of the opposing lineup.

fine, count the fake goal, still needed one more

Actually, the game would have been 2-2, with our big 4 contributing to both goals. Of course, both of Tampa's goals came from a player costing them 750k, because silly Paul didn't understand that he didn't have to do anything.

then bitch about that missed call - not the penalty called in the epicenter of the play.

Both were examples of horrible officiating.

 

[notDatsyuk]

1. That's not true. The play in question had little impact on the goal.
2. The play was not "blatantly obviously illegal". It's the type of play that happens all the time and never gets called, much less in a one-goal playoff game 7. Way, way, way, way, way worse stuff was let go in the series, even when it directly led to goals. It was objectively a horrible call.
3. Regardless of what you think, Tavares put the puck in the net, and it being stolen had nothing to do what anything Tavares did. Tavares stepped up.

The Leaf star forwards didn't do nothing.

"Little impact on the goal"? Holl deliberately ran into the player who was checking JT, and that was the only reason JT got a shot. When interference is that obvious and that directly affecting the play, it will be called.

I have no problem with Tavares' play, and he made a good shot. But that has nothing to do with the fact that the clear penalty was called before he shot it, and it was not a goal.

I thought the complaint was that the Leafs stars did nothing. Personally I thought they played well, and at least as well as the Tampa stars. The problem was that their support players were better than our support players.

 

[andora]

Not only is that not true, but they didn't "survive their shifts". That's the problem. They got outplayed and outscored by the bottom of the opposing lineup.

i don't think they gave up a 5on5 goal against in the last three games. most pivotal best of 3 of the series and they survived imo - no 5on5 goals against and no penalties taken, survived

Actually, the game would have been 2-2, with our big 4 contributing to both goals. Of course, both of Tampa's goals came from a player costing them 750k, because silly Paul didn't understand that he didn't have to do anything.

now this just sounds like frustration.. but like i said - still needed one more. i'm pretty sure the people watching it weren't expecting anything from the bottom two lines

Both were examples of horrible officiating.

argue the not calling the jersey hold all you want

 

[Golden_Jet]

Lyubushkin and 4th line players were the only players on the team to have a negative goal differential in the series, for the record.

You missed Bunting.

 

[hamzarocks]

^^^

Bolts won in 7.

Your one of the few guys happy with results

 

[Felix the Cat Potvin]

That's not necessarily true. Elite ELC talent is among the most beneficial things you can have in hockey, as the discrepancy between their restricted pay and impact is so massive.

Chicago is a unicorn in terms of their elite players being on ELC contracts when they won.

Expecting the same from Lou is an unfair expectation.

By comparison, expecting a GM to win with elite players they inherited is a normal expectation.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Holl deliberately ran into the player who was checking JT, and that was the only reason JT got a shot.

Literally none of that is correct. Holl did not deliberately run into anybody. Holl was rotating in because it looked like Tavares was rotating out, but Tavares cut inside instead, and when Cirelli tried to cut inside as well, that took him into the path that Holl was already taking. Holl literally tried to stop when he saw Cirelli, and Cirelli just pushed him down. Cirelli is not entitled to that ice any more than Holl. It also wasn't the reason Tavares got a shot. He had already pulled away from Cirelli whether Holl was there or not. It was a horrible, incorrect, series-defining call.

I thought the complaint was that the Leafs stars did nothing.

Not sure how you came to that conclusion when you quoted a post discussing some of the things the Leaf stars did, that specifically noted a contrast to the Tampa stars.

i don't think they gave up a 5on5 goal against in the last three games. most pivotal best of 3 of the series and they survived imo - no 5on5 goals against and no penalties taken, survived

They got outplayed, outscored, and took penalties against the bottom of the opposing lineup. That is not surviving, and it's very obviously not what we needed from our 4th line.

but like i said - still needed one more.

Like I said, the game would have been 2-2 instead of over, with our big 4 contributing to both goals.
And again, in contrast, Tampa's goals came from a player costing them 750k. You should have told Paul that he didn't have to do anything and just had to "survive" out there.

argue the not calling the jersey hold all you want

Both were horrendous, and deserved to be called out.

You missed Bunting.

Bunting was even.

Chicago is a unicorn in terms of their elite players being on ELC contracts when they won.

A lot of winning teams have players on ELCs surpassing their cost. Fact is, elite players on ELCs provide a ton of value, and in many cases, more surplus value than those same players at later stages of their career when they're better but being paid appropriately. What Lou had was just as beneficial to his team. He was just horrible at utilizing that additional space and building around what he was gifted.

 

[mapleleafslaughssame]

Obviously Tavares contract holding us back and Marner being overpaid. Otherwise we would be able to afford help. It’s common sense you shouldn’t have had to ask this.

 

[andora]

They got outplayed, outscored, and took penalties against the bottom of the opposing lineup. That is not surviving, and it's very obviously not what we needed from our 4th line.

Like I said, the game would have been 2-2 instead of over, with our big 4 contributing to both goals.
And again, in contrast, Tampa's goals came from a player costing them 750k. You should have told Paul that he didn't have to do anything and just had to "survive" out

I may have games 5 6 7 wrong.. which are the games i referenced. 5on5 did they take a penalty or give up a goal.. i may be wrong

2-2 still need one more

Im not worried about paul and your junk. Specifically since I said the way that our team is structured not theirs

 

[notDatsyuk]

Literally none of that is correct. Holl did not deliberately run into anybody. Holl was rotating in because it looked like Tavares was rotating out, but Tavares cut inside instead, and when Cirelli tried to cut inside as well, that took him into the path that Holl was already taking. Holl literally tried to stop when he saw Cirelli, and Cirelli just pushed him down. Cirelli is not entitled to that ice any more than Holl. It also wasn't the reason Tavares got a shot. He had already pulled away from Cirelli whether Holl was there or not. It was a horrible, incorrect, series-defining call.

That has got to be the most pathetically convoluted attempt to justify the unjustifiable that I have ever seen on these boards.

I hope for your sake that you don't seriously believe that.

 

[Notsince67]

Our 4th line got outplayed, produced very little in a sheltered role, and took bad penalties. Lyubushkin also got outplayed, dragged down Rielly, and took the most penalties on the team.
Lyubushkin and 4th line players were the only players on the team to have a negative goal differential in the series, for the record.

Yes, you cherry picked goals, and ignored Tavares putting the puck in the net, and I took a slightly wider and more accurate look at their contributions.

That is exactly how it played out. Was so obvious, any other explanation is extreme gaslighting. I just don't know what some other people were watching.

 

[Shooter2x]

Our 4th line got outplayed, produced very little in a sheltered role, and took bad penalties. Lyubushkin also got outplayed, dragged down Rielly, and took the most penalties on the team.
Lyubushkin and 4th line players were the only players on the team to have a negative goal differential in the series, for the record.

Yes, you cherry picked goals, and ignored Tavares putting the puck in the net, and I took a slightly wider and more accurate look at their contributions.

Rielly played atrocious defence on his own. Boosh had nothing to do with it.

They both got outplayed, but at least we know Boosh has no business being that high on the depth chart. Rielly's defensive play is the truly depressing one.

I mean Rielly actually trying to stop the speedster Maroon from bursting into the zone and taking the puck to the net for a goal is an example of what could have swung the series to us. I guess we'll just blame all of
Riellys bad defensive plays on Boosh and call it a day.

Rielly's defensive play (puck going to our net) deserves to be grouped into factors that cost us the series.

 

[Notsince67]

Rielly played atrocious defence on his own. Boosh had nothing to do with it.

They both got outplayed, but at least we know Boosh has no business being that high on the depth chart. Rielly's defensive play is the truly depressing one.

Rielly played poorly as did Liljegren.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I may have games 5 6 7 wrong.. which are the games i referenced.

The series was 7 games, and games 5-7 weren't much better for them anyway.

2-2 still need one more

Both need 1 more, and that doesn't change the fact that you were wrong about the big 4 in game 7.

Im not worried about paul

Because you know I'm right, and it destroys your claim that we can't expect anything out of lesser paid depth players.

Specifically since I said the way that our team is structured not theirs

How is team construction relevant here? Tampa pays a lot for their forward group and has many high paid star forwards, but they won game 7 on the back of a league minimum player, who was apparently just supposed to survive and do nothing.

That has got to be the most pathetically convoluted attempt to justify the unjustifiable that I have ever seen on these boards.

Nope, that would be your description. Mine was 100% accurate. It was a horrendous, unjustifiable, series-defining call.

Rielly played atrocious defence on his own. Boosh had nothing to do with it.

Rielly did not play "atrocious defense". Muzzin-Brodie were definitely the anchor of our blueline in that series, but Rielly carried Lyubushkin and constantly had to cover for him, even though Lyubushkin is supposed to be the stay at home guy.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Nope, that would be your description. Mine was 100% accurate. It was a horrendous, unjustifiable, series-defining call.

Serious question - do you really believe that, or are you just having fun?

 

[Dekes For Days]

do you really believe that

Of course I believe the obvious and undeniable truth that there's video evidence of. It would be pretty ridiculous to believe anything else.

 

[andora]

The series was 7 games, and games 5-7 weren't much better for them anyway.

Talking about 5-7.. they cleaned up.

Both need 1 more, and that doesn't change the fact that you were wrong about the big 4 in game 7.

I am not wrong about what i expected from them

Because you know I'm right, and it destroys your claim that we can't expect anything out of lesser paid depth players.

I wasnt expecting anything offensive from our lesser paid depth players. If we were speaking right now would your voice be louder than normal..

getting into the series 2-2 aftwr four games, MY expectation was for the 4th line to survive the next three games .. looks like they did. Outplayed and scored on are different.

How is team construction relevant here? Tampa pays a lot for their forward group and has many high paid star forwards, but they won game 7 on the back of a league minimum player, who was apparently just supposed to survive and do nothing.

I laughed here thank you.. what do you expect from gaudette this year.

Is it so outlandish to be able to talk about this team without having to compare it to something.. talk about something on its own

Maybe they are better at identifying depth players that can do things

 

[notDatsyuk]

Of course I believe the obvious and undeniable truth that there's video evidence of. It would be pretty ridiculous to believe anything else.

Ok, so you really are just having fun by pretending to believe otherwise.

Good to know.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Talking about 5-7.. they cleaned up.

The series was 7 games. The 4th line was not very good through any of it.

I am not wrong about what i expected from them

Then your expectations were unreasonable. The big 4 were not the problem, especially in game 7, where they factored into every goal and did way more than the opposing star forwards.

I wasnt expecting anything offensive from our lesser paid depth players.

Just because somebody is a lesser paid depth player, it doesn't justify them being useless. Tampa literally won game 7 on the back of a lesser paid depth player.

what do you expect from gaudette this year.

I'm not even sure if Gaudette will be on the team in the regular season, let alone the playoffs, but if he's on the team, I expect him to do something to justify that.

Is it so outlandish to be able to talk about this team without having to compare it to something.. talk about something on its own
Maybe they are better at identifying depth players that can do things

You don't want to discuss other teams because it disproves what you're suggesting. Our "team construction" doesn't change anything, and the players on our team last year were fully capable of "doing things" better than they did.

Ok, so you really are just having fun by pretending to believe otherwise.

No, that would be what you're doing. I'm believing the obvious and undeniable truth that there's video evidence of. There's nothing "fun" about disgraceful officiating. It's bad for the sport.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Literally none of that is correct. Holl did not deliberately run into anybody. Holl was rotating in because it looked like Tavares was rotating out, but Tavares cut inside instead, and when Cirelli tried to cut inside as well, that took him into the path that Holl was already taking. Holl literally tried to stop when he saw Cirelli, and Cirelli just pushed him down. Cirelli is not entitled to that ice any more than Holl. It also wasn't the reason Tavares got a shot. He had already pulled away from Cirelli whether Holl was there or not. It was a horrible, incorrect, series-defining call.

Not sure how you came to that conclusion when you quoted a post discussing some of the things the Leaf stars did, that specifically noted a contrast to the Tampa stars.

They got outplayed, outscored, and took penalties against the bottom of the opposing lineup. That is not surviving, and it's very obviously not what we needed from our 4th line.

Like I said, the game would have been 2-2 instead of over, with our big 4 contributing to both goals.
And again, in contrast, Tampa's goals came from a player costing them 750k. You should have told Paul that he didn't have to do anything and just had to "survive" out there.

Both were horrendous, and deserved to be called out.

Bunting was even.

A lot of winning teams have players on ELCs surpassing their cost. Fact is, elite players on ELCs provide a ton of value, and in many cases, more surplus value than those same players at later stages of their career when they're better but being paid appropriately. What Lou had was just as beneficial to his team. He was just horrible at utilizing that additional space and building around what he was gifted.

Not according to Hockey reference and The NHL.

2022 NHL Eastern First Round: TBL vs. TOR | Hockey-Reference.com

2022 NHL Eastern First Round: TBL vs. TOR

www.hockey-reference.com

Michael Bunting Stats And News

Get all the latest stats, news, videos, and more on Michael Bunting.

www.nhl.com

 

[Dekes For Days]

Not according to Hockey reference and The NHL.

I assume you're looking at plus/minus, which is different than goal differential. Bunting was on the ice for 4 goals for and 4 goals against at ES. He had an even goal differential.

 

[andora]

The series was 7 games. The 4th line was not very good through any of it.

1-4 - struggled
5-7 - cleaned up and survived..

Then your expectations were unreasonable. The big 4 were not the problem, especially in game 7, where they factored into every goal and did way more than the opposing star forwards.

And somehow my expectations were in line with what happened. The third line wasnt some two way strength to expect consistent depth offense from but rather a safe nutralizing line that focused on their end of the ice

the 4th line i did not expect any offense from and expected them to essentially eat minutes complete their shifts without a goal against while the big guys rested

Just because somebody is a lesser paid depth player, it doesn't justify them being useless. Tampa literally won game 7 on the back of a lesser paid depth player.

Again with tampa.. it is like they are good or something. Maybe they are better at identifying good depth players

I'm not even sure if Gaudette will be on the team in the regular season, let alone the playoffs, but if he's on the team, I expect him to do something to justify that.

Ok

You don't want to discuss other teams because it disproves what you're suggesting. Our "team construction" doesn't change anything, and the players on our team last year were fully capable of "doing things" better than they did.

What i suggested with my own words was our construction not tampas or anyone else. You morphed that again.