Why Mark Messier is Often Regarded the Worst/Most Hated Vancouver Canuck of All Time.

[sr edler]

He simply didn't care about Vancouver, and that's it. It showed on the ice very well.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Well, what problem do you have with anything Messier was quoted (lacking all context, I might add) as saying? Because I have no problem with anything he's quoted as saying there. All seems sound and correct to me.

The rest of your accusations ("he seemed to be taking over", "he was the defacto GM") is all groundless speculation with no basis in fact or evidence.

Frankly, I tend to trust Markus Naslund more than you or Gino Odjick.

why is naslund somehow more trustworthy than gino? because he rarely says what he really thinks?


oh yeah, i'll just leave this here:

''I was never going make the kind of impact Mess does because I was never going to be the physical force he is,'' Naslund said shortly after becoming captain. ''In his last year here, a lot of players were scared to say anything in the locker room with Mark in the room. To me, the best way to improve a team's chemistry is through give and take.

''And while I was in awe watching Mario, I was young," he said. "What I learned most from him is that Mario has something that not a lot of people have. He doesn't think he ever is going to fail. When you always have that approach, that you're going to make it, that you are going to make a difference, the mind is a pretty powerful thing.''

http://www.nhl.com/intheslot/read/indepth/naslund/blossoms.html

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

1)Messier never ''stole'' the captaincy from Linden, he asked Linden to do what he felt in his heart - Trevor HANDED IT OVER to Messier.

2)His numbers weren't even that bad for his age, really.

3)Naslund, Bertuzzi, Jovo, and Ohlund (the clubs core from 2000-onwards) all credited Messier with elevating their game.

This is one Canuck fan that doesnt hate the guy, and his ''disaster'' her is greatly overblown.

 

[Boom Boom Bear]

I was well-aware of the Messier/Canucks problems from back in the day (though I certainly wasn't following the Canucks at the time), but reading these repeated threads about Messier-in-Vancouver has really enlightened me to the fact that...

Canucks' fans are deluded about this.

I mean, really people. Messier wore #11, and it's his fault nobody on the Canucks told him about a previous player (who, by the way, pales by comparison in importance to Messier). Linden decides Messier should be the captain, and that's Messier's fault. Quinn and whoever hired Mike Keenan, and that's Messier's fault. Messier is pushing 40 by the time he departs, the team is on the upswing (many of whose future leaders attribute some of their success to Messier), and yet the team's failures are Messier's fault (of course, the team had been declining for three years before he arrived and already missed the playoffs). But never let the facts get in the way of some Messier-hatred.

This line of thinking is equivalent to if, in 2008, Nicklas Lidstrom had signed for big money with the Edmonton Oilers. Then, in 2009, 2010, and 2011, the Oilers missed the playoffs (but Taylor Hall, etc. were getting better by 2011, as was the team). Lidstrom then retires or signs elsewhere.

Would Oilers' fans (bruised as they currently are) blame this all on Lidstrom? Would we be pissing at Lidstrom 15 years later for wearing Al Hamilton's number? No, we'd be blaming it on the idiots responsible for bringing a nearly past-it high priced player to suck-up salary space on a team that doesn't need that kind of player. Meanwhile, we'd grudgingly enjoy watching Lidstrom play and give him the respect he deserves when he left after a very difficult three years.

You are way off base here. This is an evidence-based thread with historical archives taken from local newspapers of record reporting how players, media & fans felt about Messier as things happened. You may or may not agree with the conclusions people made about Messier here in Vancouver, but the fact of the matter is the vast majority of Canucks fans came to an anti-Messier consensus while he was still here. Hockey fandom has a very high emotional component, & Messier's actions typically triggered negative emotional responses from fans, largely because he was overall perceived as being arrogant & above the team & fans, a very sharp contrast to the previous captainships of Linden & Smyl. If you want to smear an entire fanbase without having lived through the experience, you're pretty delusional yourself.

 

[Boom Boom Bear]

A media & fan backlash against Messier appearing in Rogers' ads is currently brewing:
http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2014/10/get-mark-messier-off-my-tv-screen-an-open-letter-to-sportsnet/

 

[Bob b smith]

Part of the problem is just expecting way too much from a forward well passed his prime (Ds are a different story). Every year the decline in abilities is accelerated. Aside from a few exceptions (extreme speedsters like Gartner and Selanne come to mind), a forward in his later thirties is done.

Then in Messier's case the problem is compounded by the whole sideshow that follows a player with his superstar background.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Bitter entitled canuck fans couldn't deal with the fact that their team stunk and messier was pushing 40. Of course he was going to decline. It all goes back to 94.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I 100% agree with what Messier said in the 3rd and final article in post 97.

His Canucks teammates anonymously leaking team drama to the media while still on the team is completely unprofessional. Messier's words "a soap opera" ring true there.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Messier still produced at a 64 point pace during his canuck tenure even though he was way past his prime. All the whining about how terrible he was is just that... whining. The guy won 6 Stanley Cups, it's not his fault your team was bad. Sorry he beat you in 1994.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Hockey fandom has a very high emotional component, & Messier's actions typically triggered negative emotional responses from fans, largely because he was overall perceived as being arrogant & above the team & fans, a very sharp contrast to the previous captainships of Linden & Smyl.

i think this is it right here. i mean, why are we even sports fans?

i spend my entire professional life being even-handed and rational. probably, we all do. and i'm assuming most of us work very hard at our jobs. so when someone wants to chant "potvin sucks" or boo patrice brisebois or insist that otto kicked it in, or my personal favourite: knicks fans booing former sacramento guard isaiah thomas because he almost has the same name as isiah thomas, i say go nuts.

and i'll say again, i seriously question the maturity or self-awareness of someone coming into a thread called "why messier is often regarded as the most hated canucks of all time" to tell those fans to get over it.

 

[GPNuck]

I remember watching him play I was a kid and thinking how lazy he was sure he could feed Pavel some breakaway passes now and again but the word "backcheck" was not in his vocabulary. Terrible ERA and i'm glad Trevor is back and in charge.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

It is all about expectations. When a player is signed for $6 million a year then expectations are going to be extremely high. He wasn't being paid like a 37 year old role player, he was being paid like a ppg superstar so you can't very well criticize Canucks fans for being angry or dissapointed with Messier's performance on the ice.

That should be the number one complaint about Messier's time in Vancouver not the multitude of nonsense that he is blamed for.

Look at Gino Odjick he whines that he expected Messier to show up and lead the current Canucks. Yet management expected Messier to evaluate what changes needed to be made to improve the team (just as he did in NY). It's easy for Odjick to blame Messier for he and his teammates being dealt but the team wasn't winning before Messier arrived and the players traded were playing poorly so it's really more about a player looking for someone to blame when he should start with the guy in the mirror.

Boo hoo, Mike Keenan yelled at Trevor Linden, well he did that to Brian Leetch too and instead of playing like hot garbage he raised his game to levels where their were comparisons being made to Bobby Orr. Why would Messier undermine a coach that he seen his tactics result in success to maintain the Canucks Country Club of Losing?

 

[mathonwy]

Part of the problem is just expecting way too much from a forward well passed his prime (Ds are a different story). Every year the decline in abilities is accelerated. Aside from a few exceptions (extreme speedsters like Gartner and Selanne come to mind), a forward in his later thirties is done.

Then in Messier's case the problem is compounded by the whole sideshow that follows a player with his superstar background.

Look beyond your own statement. Expectations. If you felt that fans were expecting too much from Messier than why was he brought in in the first place? So there is equal culpability on both Keenan AND Messier for the cluster that ensued.

 

[mathonwy]

It is all about expectations. When a player is signed for $6 million a year then expectations are going to be extremely high. He wasn't being paid like a 37 year old role player, he was being paid like a ppg superstar so you can't very well criticize Canucks fans for being angry or dissapointed with Messier's performance on the ice.

That should be the number one complaint about Messier's time in Vancouver not the multitude of nonsense that he is blamed for.

Look at Gino Odjick he whines that he expected Messier to show up and lead the current Canucks. Yet management expected Messier to evaluate what changes needed to be made to improve the team (just as he did in NY). It's easy for Odjick to blame Messier for he and his teammates being dealt but the team wasn't winning before Messier arrived and the players traded were playing poorly so it's really more about a player looking for someone to blame when he should start with the guy in the mirror.

Boo hoo, Mike Keenan yelled at Trevor Linden, well he did that to Brian Leetch too and instead of playing like hot garbage he raised his game to levels where their were comparisons being made to Bobby Orr. Why would Messier undermine a coach that he seen his tactics result in success to maintain the Canucks Country Club of Losing?

Your post makes sense until you start talking about Gino.

Gino's not a leader. Gino's not a mover and shaker. Gino has a job and he did it relatively well. Just put yourself in his shoes at that point of time.

Your company is doing poorly. A consultant gets hired by your CEO and the consultant's job is to shake things up and turn things around. The consultant's first move is to take over the team lead position. Ok, fine. He's here to turn things around. Great.

Then, he starts shipping all of your close friends to different companies and he's not especially nice about it, in fact, he's a bit of a dick. Hmmm... Then his work ethic is crap, he's super chummy with the CEO and the company is still doing ******.

So, what's Gino going to do here? Look in the mirror? Reincarnate himself as Pavel Bure part deux?

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

Your post makes sense until you start talking about Gino.

Gino's not a leader. Gino's not a mover and shaker. Gino has a job and he did it relatively well. Just put yourself in his shoes at that point of time.

Your company is doing poorly. A consultant gets hired by your CEO and the consultant's job is to shake things up and turn things around. The consultant's first move is to take over the team lead position. Ok, fine. He's here to turn things around. Great.

Then, he starts shipping all of your close friends to different companies and he's not especially nice about it, in fact, he's a bit of a dick. Hmmm... Then his work ethic is crap, he's super chummy with the CEO and the company is still doing ******.

So, what's Gino going to do here? Look in the mirror? Reincarnate himself as Pavel Bure part deux?

If my company is doing poorly and me and my friends are all doing our jobs worse than we had in the past and we are all let go and low and behold the company turns it around than I probably just keep my mouth shut because the consultant was obviously right.

 

[The Panther]

and i'll say again, i seriously question the maturity or self-awareness of someone coming into a thread called "why messier is often regarded as the most hated canucks of all time" to tell those fans to get over it.

Yes, that's exactly it. If they want to have a thread about "Why Messier's time in Vancouver (and the preceding season too) were failures", or to analyze why Canucks' management brought him in, or whatever, that's one thing. But these continued character-assassination threads are just embarrassing and pointless.

At the end of the day, Messier had about 17 brilliant, Hall of Fame seasons (1980-1997) when he was the 2nd to 4th best center in hockey, the winningest player (along with Trottier, Lowe), and he was widely popular and respected by fans, teammates, and media. His piddly three years on the west coast playing for a team in decline is never going to change that, nor are these endless threads.

 

[JA]

If my company is doing poorly and me and my friends are all doing our jobs worse than we had in the past and we are all let go and low and behold the company turns it around than I probably just keep my mouth shut because the consultant was obviously right.

But if that consultant, as your team's leader, is the one costing you results, would you not have a problem with him? Does that not make him a hypocrite, particularly if he's criticizing everyone but himself?

The first Mason article discusses this. Messier's on-ice performance was detrimental to his team.

Also, Keenan's criticism of Linden was public.

Iron Mike's got a friend in Messier
Star - Phoenix [Saskatoon, Sask] 08 Jan 1998: B3.

VANCOUVER (CP) -- Vancouver Canuck captain Mark Messier has come to the defence of head coach Mike Keenan, indicating the only controversy about the team should be its last-place standing.

Keenan has been in the eye of a media hurricane since Sunday when he publicly accused popular Canuck veteran Trevor Linden of playing at "50 per cent."

Details of his harsh treatment of Linden during a December game in St. Louis and apparently petty incidents involving traded winger Martin Gelinas were also reported in the Vancouver Sun.

"It depends what you think is controversy," Messier said Tuesday when asked about the turmoil that has engulfed the team in recent days.

...

Keenan smiled when he was told about Messier's comments.

"When you're in last place there's a tremendous amount of controversy," Keenan said.

...

Messier also played under Keenan in New York, where the two helped the Rangers to the Stanley Cup.

Keenan said Monday that he had some regrets about criticizing Linden through the media, rather than dealing with the player privately.

"I knew I was at risk by going public," he said Tuesday. "It was a high-risk move. I knew it would be controversial and I knew I'd be criticized. I took that risk because I care a great deal about Trevor. I want him to be part of this.

"Those people who find it most difficult to change, if in the end they can accept it, they're the strongest rooted. I'm very emotional. I care a great deal. Sometimes if I make errors I'm erring on the side of risk because I do care passionately about what I'm doing."

...

Also, another article:

Odd visits the Garage: Linden cheered, Messier jeered in homecoming: [Final C Edition]
Jamieson, Jim. The Province [Vancouver, B.C] 25 Mar 1998: A50.

In the strangest Canucks season in recent memory there were even more oddities Tuesday night at the Garage.

The visiting team's captain got a standing ovation from the sellout crowd, while the Canucks skipper received his first Bronx cheers of the season.

...

Linden was the subject of a moving video tribute in the pre-game ceremonies that ended with the scoreboard flashing Thanks Trevor to a roar from the crowd. But the Canucks scored the first goal of the game, 2:29 in, and never trailed.

"It was an odd day all around, with the trading deadline (at noon) and then Trevor and Gino (Odjick) playing for the other team," said Canucks defenceman Bret Hedican, now one of the longest- surviving members of the team. "We knew there would be a lot of emotion at the start of the game, so we tried to keep it simple."

...

The counterpoint to the love-in with Linden came in the second period when Canucks captain Mark Messier stole the puck from teammate Brian Noonan as he was teeing it up to shoot and then on the ensuing rush put himself offside.

The boos rained down on Messier, who was caught flat-footed by Claude Lapointe to create a two-on-one leading to the Isles' first goal near the end of the first period.

"It's been a frustrating month for me," said Messier, in reference to the tendinitis in his left elbow that's plagued him. "So I have no qualms about (the booing). I've had no time to sit out and when you play injured you open yourself up to criticism."

Messier lambasted the bad ice at GM Place, which has been a hot potato all season, blaming it for putting him offside.

...

Works Cited

"Iron Mike's Got a Friend in Messier." Star - Phoenix: 0. Jan 08 1998. ProQuest. Web. 18 Oct. 2014 .

Jamieson, Jim. "Odd Visits the Garage: Linden Cheered, Messier Jeered in Homecoming." The Province: 0. Mar 25 1998. ProQuest. Web. 18 Oct. 2014 .

 

[Steve Kournianos]

The Canucks stunk when they got Messier. An old, broken down, overpaid Messier who at that point of his career was nothing more than an enabler.

He was hated for 17 years of his career by Vancouver fans because he tormented them for almost 17 years.

To think that he would ressurect a franchise in need of a youth injection was just ignorance.

Easy scapegoat, I guess. That franchise was a hot mess before he arrived. What he did in 1994 coupled with bad years in Vancouver made him even more despised.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

But if that consultant, as your team's leader, is the one costing you results, would you not have a problem with him? Does that not make him a hypocrite, particularly if he's criticizing everyone but himself?

Did Messier criticize everyone but himself? What terrible things did he say about Pavel Bure? Markus Naslund? Todd Bertuzzi? Ed Jovanovski? Mattias Ohlund?

Was Messier the one costing the Canucks results?

If ownership wanted Messier to evaluate and give recommendations on changes was it wrong of Messier to do what the people who were paying him asked?

 

[seventieslord]

A media & fan backlash against Messier appearing in Rogers' ads is currently brewing:
http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2014/10/get-mark-messier-off-my-tv-screen-an-open-letter-to-sportsnet/

That was really well-written. And in a funny, self-deprecating way, too. This guy realizes that their Messierphobia really is a phobia - an irrational fear.

I especially loved the artist's depiction of Messier being handed the cup.

My friend and I still joke about his big wide open mouth when he scored goals and won cups.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Yes, that's exactly it. If they want to have a thread about "Why Messier's time in Vancouver (and the preceding season too) were failures", or to analyze why Canucks' management brought him in, or whatever, that's one thing. But these continued character-assassination threads are just embarrassing and pointless.

At the end of the day, Messier had about 17 brilliant, Hall of Fame seasons (1980-1997) when he was the 2nd to 4th best center in hockey, the winningest player (along with Trottier, Lowe), and he was widely popular and respected by fans, teammates, and media. His piddly three years on the west coast playing for a team in decline is never going to change that, nor are these endless threads.

potvin sucks

 

[SillyRabbit]

Bitter entitled canuck fans couldn't deal with the fact that their team stunk and messier was pushing 40. Of course he was going to decline. It all goes back to 94.

Messier put up better seasons in New York despite the fact that he was older than he was in Vancouver.

The guy didn't give his full effort to the Canucks, plain and simple.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

Messier put up better seasons in New York despite the fact that he was older than he was in Vancouver.

The guy didn't give his full effort to the Canucks, plain and simple.

With the Canucks:
98 - 0.73 P/GP (3rd on the Canucks)
99 - 0.81 P/GP (2nd on the Canucks)
00 - 0.82 P/GP (2nd on the Canucks)

With the Rangers:
01 - 0.82 P/GP (4th on the Rangers)
02 - 0.56 P/GP (10th on the Rangers)
03 - 0.51 P/GP (8th on the Rangers)
04 - 0.57 P/GP (9th on the Rangers)

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

"Everybody wants a player who's played on a championship team at some point." I think he forgot that many of the players he was ousting from the team rallied back to nearly rob the New York Rangers of their Stanley Cup in 1994. The Rangers had twice the payroll of the Canucks that year. They had more leadership than he gave them credit for, and he was portraying himself as the sole individual who would steer the ship right.

That leadership core had lead the team to 3 straight declining seasons including missing the playoffs before Messier signed. Ownership didn't overpay Messier because things were good with the team. Every player who was dealt with the exeption of Bure who demanded a trade was playing poorly, that has to be on those players not Messier.

Things changed when Brian Burke became the new general manager, but a great deal of damage had been done already. Messier literally tried to be GM, coach and captain all at once, running a team that was just average straight into the ground. They went from missing the playoffs by 4 points in 1996-97 to being last in the Western Conference in 1997-98. That season was problematic from the very beginning; Messier was a distraction, and yet he was at the center of control that year alongside Mike Keenan.

C'mon you know your Canucks history they were headed aground well before Messier was signed. When a team rebuilds it usually has to take a step back which is what the Canucks did after clearing out the dead wood. They probably could of began their ascent in 02 if Bure didn't holdout and demand a trade and Mogilny and Messier had been healthy but that's the way it went.

Vancouver Canucks Winning % through the Years
1991/92 - .600
1992/93 - .601
1993/94 - .506
1994/95 - .500
1995/96 - .482
1996/97 - .470
Mark Messier Signs with Vancouver
1997/98 - .390 (Mogilny injured, veterans traded for youth)
1998/99 - .354 (Messier injured, Bure is dealt before season for youth)
1999/00 - .506 (Rebuilt Canucks have best season since 1994)
Mark Messier Signs with New York
2000/01 - .549
2001/02 - .573
2002/03 - .634

Messier deserves all the criticism he receives for his on ice play but if you want to blame him for his work as "GM" then he really deserves some credit helping turn the franchise around.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Messier put up better seasons in New York despite the fact that he was older than he was in Vancouver.

The guy didn't give his full effort to the Canucks, plain and simple.

I dont know what you mean by "full effort", but even a 1997 Messier (his last as a Ranger) has no significant impact on just a dreadful 1998 Canucks roster.

Messier was the de facto coach in NY. The difference in his NY arrival was that he arrived to a franchise on the cusp of dominance. The 1990 Rangers won the first division in 50 years, and the 1991 Rangers were one of the best teams in the Wales for 3/4 of the season until a late season collapse.

Plus, Messier walked into a franchise with tremendous prospect/youth depth with Leetch, Zubov, Graves, Richter, Amonte, Kovalev, Weight and Nemchinov all either in their prime or entering their prime.

He was afforded no such luxury in Vancouver. The Canucks were on a downward spiral, and the ownership knew they had a very small window with the veteran group.

I blame Messier for being greedy, I blame Checketts and Smith for failing to commit to Messier, and I blame Smith for believing that letting Messier walk and offer-sheeting Sakic was proper.

I do not, however, blame Messier for the Rangers collapse of 1998-2004. It was bound to happen because Smith dealt away his depth and prospects, not because of Messier leaving.

Same thing with Vancouver. I have no allegiance to that franchise, but I am also objective enough to acknowledge what building a strong team looks like. In 1990, they were building a strong team. In 1997, they were a House of Cards.

Messier was booed by Rangers fans in 1993. Deservedly so. The team was a mess.

The one difference is that Smith had assets to improve the roster in 1994.