Why Mark Messier is Often Regarded the Worst/Most Hated Vancouver Canuck of All Time.

Big Phil

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That leadership core had lead the team to 3 straight declining seasons including missing the playoffs before Messier signed. Ownership didn't overpay Messier because things were good with the team. Every player who was dealt with the exeption of Bure who demanded a trade was playing poorly, that has to be on those players not Messier.



C'mon you know your Canucks history they were headed aground well before Messier was signed. When a team rebuilds it usually has to take a step back which is what the Canucks did after clearing out the dead wood. They probably could of began their ascent in 02 if Bure didn't holdout and demand a trade and Mogilny and Messier had been healthy but that's the way it went.

Vancouver Canucks Winning % through the Years
1991/92 - .600
1992/93 - .601
1993/94 - .506
1994/95 - .500
1995/96 - .482
1996/97 - .470
Mark Messier Signs with Vancouver
1997/98 - .390 (Mogilny injured, veterans traded for youth)
1998/99 - .354 (Messier injured, Bure is dealt before season for youth)
1999/00 - .506 (Rebuilt Canucks have best season since 1994)
Mark Messier Signs with New York
2000/01 - .549
2001/02 - .573
2002/03 - .634

Messier deserves all the criticism he receives for his on ice play but if you want to blame him for his work as "GM" then he really deserves some credit helping turn the franchise around.

I don't know where you got those numbers, but the Rangers did not have that high of winning percentage when Messier was there the second time. Not even close. They were a sub .500 team each time.

I think a lot of the Messier tenure in Vancouver was the fact that they wanted Messier to do what he did a decade earlier. Or even three years earlier. He was 36 when he went to a pretty dysfunctional franchise. Bure did not want to be there anymore. Mogilny was..............well, we know how the Jekyl and Hyde Mogilny could be.

Honestly, how many players at the age of 36 can turn around a franchise? Gretzky was 36 during the 1997-'98 season and they missed the postseason. Esposito was 36 when the Rangers had that spike year when they made the final in 1979. That was it.

Howe? Beliveau? Yeah, maybe them, but Detroit didn't win a Cup then either. Honestly, the NHL isn't exactly filled with 36 year olds who had legendary seasons.
 

Hardyvan123

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I dont know what you mean by "full effort", but even a 1997 Messier (his last as a Ranger) has no significant impact on just a dreadful 1998 Canucks roster.

Messier was the de facto coach in NY. The difference in his NY arrival was that he arrived to a franchise on the cusp of dominance. The 1990 Rangers won the first division in 50 years, and the 1991 Rangers were one of the best teams in the Wales for 3/4 of the season until a late season collapse.

Plus, Messier walked into a franchise with tremendous prospect/youth depth with Leetch, Zubov, Graves, Richter, Amonte, Kovalev, Weight and Nemchinov all either in their prime or entering their prime.

He was afforded no such luxury in Vancouver. The Canucks were on a downward spiral, and the ownership knew they had a very small window with the veteran group.

I blame Messier for being greedy, I blame Checketts and Smith for failing to commit to Messier, and I blame Smith for believing that letting Messier walk and offer-sheeting Sakic was proper.

I do not, however, blame Messier for the Rangers collapse of 1998-2004. It was bound to happen because Smith dealt away his depth and prospects, not because of Messier leaving.

Same thing with Vancouver. I have no allegiance to that franchise, but I am also objective enough to acknowledge what building a strong team looks like. In 1990, they were building a strong team. In 1997, they were a House of Cards.

Messier was booed by Rangers fans in 1993. Deservedly so. The team was a mess.

The one difference is that Smith had assets to improve the roster in 1994.

Good post and the thing about Moose and his time in Vancouver was his attitude and ego being the most important thing to him.

He simply wasn't the leader in Vancouver that he was in other places no 2 ways about it.

He wasn't the only problem in Vancouver at the time but he was a big part of the problem and did little to make the team better.
 

Edo

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I'm surprised that the Ranger fans don't hate Messier as much as Vancouver do. When Messier came back to New York after leaving Vancouver, it was pretty clear to everybody that he was padding stats. He had one objective, and that was to improve on his legacy and create some separation within the all-time lists. Zero intention or ***** given on how the Rangers preform.

But I guess that winning that one cup in '94 made up for those last 4 seasons where the Rangers accepted mediocrity to let Messier pad them stats.
 

Sonny Lamateena

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I'm surprised that the Ranger fans don't hate Messier as much as Vancouver do. When Messier came back to New York after leaving Vancouver, it was pretty clear to everybody that he was padding stats. He had one objective, and that was to improve on his legacy and create some separation within the all-time lists. Zero intention or ***** given on how the Rangers preform.

But I guess that winning that one cup in '94 made up for those last 4 seasons where the Rangers accepted mediocrity to let Messier pad them stats.

That's not true at all. He played as hard as anyone else and when he chose to retire after the lockout he still had contract offers, if he was chasing numbers I'm sure he would of came back to grab the 6 goals he needed for 700, the 7 assists he needed for 1200, the 13 points for 1900, and most importantly the 11 games he needed to be #1 in all-time games played.
 

monster_bertuzzi

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I'm surprised that the Ranger fans don't hate Messier as much as Vancouver do. When Messier came back to New York after leaving Vancouver, it was pretty clear to everybody that he was padding stats. He had one objective, and that was to improve on his legacy and create some separation within the all-time lists. Zero intention or ***** given on how the Rangers preform.

But I guess that winning that one cup in '94 made up for those last 4 seasons where the Rangers accepted mediocrity to let Messier pad them stats.

The guy is one of the most beloved Rangers ever, don't be foolish.
 

RandV

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C'mon you know your Canucks history they were headed aground well before Messier was signed. When a team rebuilds it usually has to take a step back which is what the Canucks did after clearing out the dead wood. They probably could of began their ascent in 02 if Bure didn't holdout and demand a trade and Mogilny and Messier had been healthy but that's the way it went.

I can't agree with that. I was a teen at the time but being a newly minted dedicated hardcore fan there was a lot of optimism when Messier signed. Consider some of the Canucks depth chart at the time.

F: Bure(26), Mogilny(28), Naslund(24), Linden(27), Gelinas(27), Scatchard(21)
D: Lumme(30), Hedican(27), Ohlund(20)

Naslund and Ohlund stuck around for the long term of course, but Bure, Mogilny, Linden, Gelinas, Scatchard, and Hedican all moved on and continued to be quality players for other teams.

The rot on the team was in the front office, that's where we needed change. Pat Quinn had a great run leading up to '94 but their was some brutal drafting that left the next gen of Canuck players lacking and some horrible decisions that drove Wayne Gretzky away from signing here the year before and alienated Bure our most talented player ever from the franchise. Not to mention the good ol' fashioned old boys club that was rampant in the organization.

There were still holes on the roster (mainly C and G) but what we needed in '97 was Brian Burke, a new guy to come in & clean out the dinosaurs (and I know that's entirely ironic saying this now :laugh:), strong leadership from management to put the organization back on the right tracks. Instead what we got was the Messier & Keenan gong show who simply beat the franchise down and rubbed salt in the wounds.

Even if some good things came from it in hindsight, mainly the Milbury fleecing and being in a position to draft the Sedins, those two years were most certainly not needed. All they did was beat down the players on the ice, when the beating that needed to go down was upstairs and didn't start until Burke was hired in '99. Crawford was a big factor as well.
 

DisgruntledGoat*

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I can't agree with that. I was a teen at the time but being a newly minted dedicated hardcore fan there was a lot of optimism when Messier signed. Consider some of the Canucks depth chart at the time.

F: Bure(26), Mogilny(28), Naslund(24), Linden(27), Gelinas(27), Scatchard(21)
D: Lumme(30), Hedican(27), Ohlund(20)

Well, there was optimism around the Oilers this off-season too. It hardly means much. Especially when the facts were posted already and they pretty clearly show that this was a team headed downhill.

Bure was coming off a down year, a ton of injuries, and there were already rumours he wanted out. Mogilny was coming off a very inconsistent year. Linden, Gelinas and Hedican were fine but they had been there for awhile and had presided over the steady decline, they had their chance to get the team to the playoffs and it was clear reinforcements were needed. Lumme was declining. Naslund was still an inconsistent 20-goal man. Scatchard and Ohlund were completely untested prospects. . . if Vancouver was hanging their hat on those guys, that's exhibit 'A' that those were lean years. And you may as well add Kirk MacLean to the list, who was falling apart in net.

The rot on the team was in the front office, that's where we needed change. Pat Quinn had a great run leading up to '94 but their was some brutal drafting that left the next gen of Canuck players lacking and some horrible decisions that drove Wayne Gretzky away from signing here the year before and alienated Bure our most talented player ever from the franchise. Not to mention the good ol' fashioned old boys club that was rampant in the organization.

There were still holes on the roster (mainly C and G) but what we needed in '97 was Brian Burke, a new guy to come in & clean out the dinosaurs (and I know that's entirely ironic saying this now :laugh:), strong leadership from management to put the organization back on the right tracks. Instead what we got was the Messier & Keenan gong show who simply beat the franchise down and rubbed salt in the wounds.

So you wanted new management, an end to the old boys' club and strong leadership. . .

Sorry, didn't Quinn get fired and Keenan took over for him? Didn't Keenan trade Trevor 'Golden Boy' Linden (talk about an end to the old boys'club!)?

Even if some good things came from it in hindsight, mainly the Milbury fleecing and being in a position to draft the Sedins, those two years were most certainly not needed. All they did was beat down the players on the ice, when the beating that needed to go down was upstairs and didn't start until Burke was hired in '99. Crawford was a big factor as well.

Declining on-ice product. Old boys management (your own words).

How was a major house-cleaning not needed?
 

The Panther

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Look, you can quote all the news articles you want and form conclusions on what you think "seems" to have been the case. It all amounts to nothing in the grand scheme of things.
 

JA

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I think it really peeved everyone too when Messier promoted himself as being "the Winner" when, in reality, he was doing nothing to help the team; he was only hurting it. He was a cancer.
Moose makes his biggest impact after Canucks' darkest moment: [Final Edition]
Mason, Gary. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 14 Oct 1997: F1 FRONT.

If there is such a thing as a must-win situation five games into a regular season, the Vancouver Canucks faced it Monday.

Boy did they face it.

...

Messier has yet to make an impact on the ice... He's not skating like the old Moose, nor hitting like him either.

...

"Winning is a way of life," Messier told a group of reporters after Monday's game.

"It's a way of being. And I think some of it can be taught. And hopefully that's something that I can do here."

...
He was far too hands-on. He alienated his teammates and tore up the roster. He did not integrate himself as a member of that team; he saw the team as a bunch of projects and spoke condescendingly of them. As a veteran group who had already reached the Finals, his arrogance and ever-increasing influence on the organization's behavior disturbed them. Being one of the worst performers on the team in spite of his talk of "a winning attitude" made things worse. Messier brought in Keenan who made things worse for that room; Mark then had a hand in shipping everyone out so that he, Keenan and McCaw could build a team that conformed to his vision. The team was unstable all season. He wanted to be the Messiah, but instead everything he did crushed the team.

1997-98 was the year he was free to dictate. Many of the criticisms of him are rooted in that particular season. The following two years, his role was reduced significantly because of Brian Burke, and really the biggest problems people could complain about with regards to Messier were the short-term struggles that resulted from the 1997-98 dismantling of the team and his own disappointing, uninspired play. He is certainly one of the biggest hypocrites the team has seen.

Attendance dropped significantly during this period. Faith in the team disappeared.

The team needed to retool in 1997. Many of the core players were still young. A few solid pieces, particularly a reliable goaltender, would have helped them reach the playoffs again. If anything, trading Bure and Mogilny might have helped them rebuild if they ever needed to restructure their roster. The team had heart (for the most part) under Trevor Linden's leadership the previous season. They did not need Messier.

We can look back at that era and say those dark years helped the team rebuild, but then it wasn't Mark Messier's job to dictate that. He played the role of GM and preached a hypocritical message to his players. It wasn't his job to blow it up and in the process embarrass the roster and the organization.
Linden adds heart to Canucks: Canuck captain, still suffering from torn rib cartilage, makes surprise return to lineup.: [FINAL Edition]
MacIntyre, Ian. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 27 Mar 1997: C.1.

Trevor Linden's heart was in the right place. And any question about his ribs were answered Wednesday when he was crushed by Ken Baumgartner on his first shift in 2 1/2 weeks.

Linden, still suffering from torn rib cartilage, made a surprise return to the Vancouver lineup and, almost as surprisingly, got up and continued after Anaheim Mighty Duck Baumgartner caught him with his head down and pancaked the injured captain.

Linden may have wondered at that point why he rushed back into the lineup, but it became clear early on the Canucks were happy to have him. Vancouver showed more emotion than it had in weeks and the game had the intensity of a playoff game.

Of course, that might be the closest the Canucks get to the real thing, but their chances of getting into the Stanley Cup playdowns are better with Linden.

``It's taken forever and I'm still not where I'd like to be,'' Linden said after the Wednesday morning skate. ``But I can't wait any longer; I can't sit out any longer.''

Linden missed the previous eight games due to his rib injury, sustained on March 8 when cross-checked by Detroit Red Wing Vladimir Konstantinov. In December and January Linden missed 24 games due to torn knee ligaments.

These were Linden's first serious injuries in more than six years, as he had played 482 straight games to become the National Hockey League's reigning ironman.

``It just drove me nuts,'' Linden said of sitting out while his team struggled. ``From a mental standpoint, I was just miserable. I'm not a pleasant guy to be around, so everyone around me wants me to play, especially my wife.

``I tried it yesterday {in practice} and it felt all right. There's going to be certain things that are painful. We'll deal with that when it comes. We've got to see how it goes early on.''

Baumgartner showed him how it goes. But Linden dealt with it, throwing several hits of his own while skating on the fourth line with Scott Walker and Gino Odjick and also seeing time on the power play.

...
Works Cited

MacIntyre, Ian. "Linden Adds Heart to Canucks: Canuck Captain, Still Suffering from Torn Rib Cartilage, Makes Surprise Return to Lineup." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Mar 27 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

Mason, Gary. "Moose Makes His Biggest Impact After Canucks' Darkest Moment." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Oct 14 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .
 
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Sonny Lamateena

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I think it really peeved everyone too when Messier promoted himself as being "the Winner" when, in reality, he was doing nothing to help the team; he was only hurting it. He was a cancer.

He was far too hands-on. He alienated his teammates and tore up the roster. He did not integrate himself as a member of that team; he saw the team as a bunch of projects and spoke condescendingly of them. As a veteran group who had already reached the Finals, his arrogance and ever-increasing influence on the organization's behavior disturbed them. Being one of the worst performers on the team in spite of his talk of "a winning attitude" made things worse. Messier brought in Keenan who made things worse for that room; Mark then had a hand in shipping everyone out so that he, Keenan and McCaw could build a team that conformed to his vision. The team was unstable all season. He wanted to be the Messiah, but instead everything he did crushed the team.

The were a veteran group who were heroes in Vancouver for losing in the finals and following that up with 3 straight years of declining results to the point where they weren't even a playoff team. The veterans who were dealt were all playing terrible. Only in Vancouver would their be heartbreak over breaking up a core that was producing declining results both individually and collectively as a team.
1997-98 was the year he was free to dictate. Many of the criticisms of him are rooted in that particular season. The following two years, his role was reduced significantly because of Brian Burke, and really the biggest problems people could complain about with regards to Messier were the short-term struggles that resulted from the 1997-98 dismantling of the team and his own disappointing, uninspired play. He is certainly one of the biggest hypocrites the team has seen..
This we agree on at 37 Messier couln't put the team on his back like he did with the Oilers and Rangers. When the NY RANGERS say to the player that ended their 54 year old Stanley Cup curse that he's not worth the money he is asking for that should of sent a League wide warning that buyer beware. I will say the biggest loss to the Canucks wasn't Messier related and that was the Bure holdout and trade.

We can look back at that era and say those dark years helped the team rebuild, but then it wasn't Mark Messier's job to dictate that. He played the role of GM and preached a hypocritical message to his players. It wasn't his job to blow it up and in the process embarrass the roster and the organization.

Well since he advised management on coaching and player changes in NY and it worked out pretty well, I would be willing to bet those were things what ownership wanted from Mark Messier and since they were paying his salary it was his job.

As far as embarrassing the roster, I think all of the traded players did that all on their own.
Trevor Linden (Age 27): 42GP 7G 14A 21Pts -13
Martin Gelinas (Age 27): 24GP 4G 4A 8Pts -6
Gino Odjick (Age 27): 35GP 3G 2A 5Pts -3
Dave Babych (Age 36): 47GP 0G 9A 9Pts -11
Kirk McLean (Age 31): 3.68 GAA 6W 17L 4T/OT 0.879SV%
 

The Panther

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The Canucks in 1997 to 2000 sucked, with or without Messier. Obviously Messier didn't play that well, nor did the team, but only a loser-mentality would attempt to pin this on one player. THE FACT IS THIS WAS A NON-PLAYOFF TEAM, AND ALREADY IN DECLINE, BEFORE MESSIER ARRIVED.

The Canuck-management is mainly to blame for bringing in Messier when it should have been obvious that a youth-movement led by up-and-comers was what was needed, not a strong veteran presence to lead.

But the individual who is MOST to blame for any dressing-room problems in 1997-98 is Trevor Linden. He crapped the bed when he gave up the captaincy to Messier.

I didn't understand that when I heard about it in '97, and it makes less sense now. Seriously, what was he thinking? Linden had been team captain for five or six years before 1997. Has anyone ever heard of any player giving up the captaincy after six years because of one veteran free-agent signing??

Messier did the best he could with a messed-up team in transition. By the middle of his third and last season, the ship had been righted, and was sailing in the right direction.

It's a good thing Messier was there to guide some of those young guys, since Linden wasn't willing to do it.
 

The Panther

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Before Messier:
Bure 23 goals
1st-season with Messier:
Bure 51 goals

37 games (1997) before Messier arrived:
13W - 18L - 5T
Result = missed playoffs by 4 points

Messier's last 37 games (2000):
16W - 12L - 5T
Result = missed playoffs by 4 points

The dip the Canucks experienced from 1996 (a year before Messier) to the 1999-2000 season (with Messier) was inevitable, with or without Messier.

Two key moves -- Linden's wimping out of the captaincy, and the management's hiring of Keenan -- were disastrous, but only exacerbated the numerous problems the team faced in the 1997-98 season.
 

Dolemite

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Instead, his signing marked the beginning of a period of disaster for the franchise. As soon as he joined the team, he demanded to wear the unofficially-retired #11, which had been retired to acknowledge and respect the passing of an original Canuck, Wayne Maki, in 1974. The organization gave him the number without the consent of Maki's family, which sparked outrage from the family. At this point, the team had a new owner, having bought the team from the Canucks' previous long-time owners, the Griffiths family, after the latter had overspent to build GM Place. The McCaws were supposed to only own a share of the team, but took advantage of this opportunity to buy the remaining shares. The mysterious and very private McCaw brothers now owned the team, and business became very secretive and sketchy. Giving the #11 to Messier was one of these slimy decisions.

IMO this was the biggest thing that made Messier the most hated Canuck of all time. No respect for history. It's like he came in and pissed all over Maki's memory. No apology since.

On a side note. Retire the damned number already Vancouver.
 

The Panther

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IMO this was the biggest thing that made Messier the most hated Canuck of all time. No respect for history. It's like he came in and pissed all over Maki's memory. No apology since.

On a side note. Retire the damned number already Vancouver.
That's ridiculous, though. How is a brand-new free-agent signing supposed to have "respect for (Canucks') history"? Isn't that managements' job? Is Messier supposed to come into the dressing room, see his #11 practice jersey, and immediately say: "Attention! After my careful off-season study of Canucks' history, I -- on my first day here -- refuse to wear the jersey management has given me because I know a lot about an obscure player!" (cue standing ovation from dressing room)

What we keep coming back to is, 'Canuck-fans who think this way are deluded'...
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
Good post and the thing about Moose and his time in Vancouver was his attitude and ego being the most important thing to him.

He simply wasn't the leader in Vancouver that he was in other places no 2 ways about it.

He wasn't the only problem in Vancouver at the time but he was a big part of the problem and did little to make the team better.

I think he always had an attitude and ego.

He had people in NY and Edm to check it. In Vancouver he got his money and reputation was already intact so he treated the situation differently.
 

Dolemite

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That's ridiculous, though. How is a brand-new free-agent signing supposed to have "respect for (Canucks') history"? Isn't that managements' job? Is Messier supposed to come into the dressing room, see his #11 practice jersey, and immediately say: "Attention! After my careful off-season study of Canucks' history, I -- on my first day here -- refuse to wear the jersey management has given me because I know a lot about an obscure player!" (cue standing ovation from dressing room)

What we keep coming back to is, 'Canuck-fans who think this way are deluded'...

1) Not a Canucks fan - media
2) You have no idea what you're talking about.

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives...rsy-maki-widow-son-peeved-11-article-1.777378

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...messier-leadership-award-needs-to-be-re-named
 

JA

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For those wondering, some of my posts have been removed. I've been asked to shorten the length of the article excerpts. They will be re-posted shortly.
 

JA

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Did Messier criticize everyone but himself? What terrible things did he say about Pavel Bure? Markus Naslund? Todd Bertuzzi? Ed Jovanovski? Mattias Ohlund?

Was Messier the one costing the Canucks results?

If ownership wanted Messier to evaluate and give recommendations on changes was it wrong of Messier to do what the people who were paying him asked?

Messier: Did the Canucks miss the Mark?: It has not been a vintage season for the Canucks and their newest captain.: [Final Edition]
Mason, Gary. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 17 Apr 1998: E1 / FRONT.

...

Messier doesn't indulge in the easy banter of his teammates. After the game, after he's showered and dressed, he steps before his dressing room stall, stiff-backed, chin up, to offer his pronouncements on the game. Then he's gone. He's read the superstar handbook.

He's often moved through this season alone. On the plane and team bus, he's sat by himself, deep in private thoughts. Most players couldn't summon the nerve to sit and chat with him. Which surprised me. I thought the art of team building, as Messier so expertly knows it, happened differently. But maybe this is Phase One - The Reconstruction. Maybe friendships like the ones Messier formed in New York with Brian Leetch, Mike Richter and others, will develop later here.

...

When I asked Messier about this, he said new friendships, new relationships, take time. He said it took three years to turn things around in New York, three years to give the beleaguered fans there something to cheer about again. To make him theirs.

...

Messier's contribution this season will mostly be measured by his performance on the ice. While his offensive numbers aren't overwhelming, they aren't horrible either. His play away from the puck has been the biggest concern. But let's be clear here: this was not one of Messier's strong suits in New York either. He still thinks offence first, and maybe that's a hangover from his days with the Oilers. But Messier's defensive lapses have given other teams goals. And cost the Canucks games.

Personally, this has been the most annoying aspect of Messier's conduct this season: Never once did I hear him single out his own poor play after a bad game... What I have heard from Messier has surprised me. A great deal of talk about injuries that have plagued him. There were also the over- blown comments about the arena's bad ice. Regardless, it's often sounded like excuses and I've never known Mark Messier to rely on an excuse in his life.

He recently said one of his arms was 10 per cent but he was soldiering on for the sake of the team. As long as they had a chance for the playoffs. And this is noble and certainly the mark of a great leader. But why, then, is he playing now?

...

Messier was always the teacher's pet. In Keenan's eyes, he could do no wrong. While the coach didn't hesitate to rip into anyone else for lackadaisical play, he would never finger his captain. If I was a player on that bench, watching the way Messier played some nights, I'd have problems with that. Because it smacks of preferential treatment. Which is okay if someone is playing like a superstar, but not if his wide circles are costing you goals.

While this might have cost Messier some respect in the dressing room this season, a bigger problem has been the role he's played in personnel decisions.

...
"Everybody wants a player who's played on a championship team at some point." I think he forgot that many of the players he was ousting from the team rallied back to nearly rob the New York Rangers of their Stanley Cup in 1994. The Rangers had twice the payroll of the Canucks that year. They had more leadership than he gave them credit for, and he was portraying himself as the sole individual who would steer the ship right.
Messier calls for team unity: Canucks' captain angry with loose- lipped teammates airing beefs through the media, calling it `completely unacceptable.': [Final Edition]
Mason, Gary. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 10 Jan 1998: D1 / FRONT.

...

"Ninety per cent of the players don't want to do it because it's so hard and maybe they don't see themselves in the role that they're playing or maybe they don't see themselves being played in the right situations or themselves being successful individually. Maybe they're under contract, maybe they're playing out their option. There's a million reasons why they don't."

Messier said when you finally do convince a player to make those sacrifices, and you win a championship, everyone reaps the rewards, whether you've scored one goal along the way or 50.

"Everybody wants a player who's played on a championship team at some point."

You look at this Canuck team and you see a $37 million US lemon. Messier looks at this team and says the payroll doesn't mean anything.

"If anything, it's masqueraded some of the real problems here that are hampering the team. I think you have to take money out of the equation. This team needs to be completely restructured. Talent is only one element of many elements that it takes to be a competitive team, let alone a championship team."

...
Messier also complained about the travel on the west coast:
Highlights are few and far between this season for Messier
Kerr, Grant. The Globe and Mail [Toronto, Ont] 14 Jan 1998: S.3.

...

In a conference call from Detroit yesterday, Messier lamented about the difference between playing in the Eastern Conference, where the majority of game stake place in the same time zone, and the travel requirements of a Western Conference team such as the Canucks.

Teams in the East play a more physical style because they're more rested, Messier concluded. He added that fatigue and jet lag are often factors in the blowouts that can afflict teams in the West.

"I think travel can wear teams down at any given point of the schedule," Messier said. "Out East, especially when they play in their conference, it seems teams are more physically ready to play games than out West.

"Out West, you'll see some crazy scores, 6-1, 5-1, 5-0, 7-0, a little more often. Some nights teams are on the back end of the schedule and it's harder to compete. The East has such a huge advantage in the travel aspect."

...
Messier isn't flinching over media's bashing: [Final Edition]
Bell, Terry. The Province [Vancouver, B.C] 20 Mar 1998: A63.

OTTAWA -- Vancouver Canucks captain Mark Messier has certainly seen better days than the ones that have been greeting him after each hotel wake-up call on this seven-game road trip.

But, ever the optimist, he insists that there are better days ahead of him than the ones he's experiencing now.

At 37 and hampered by an injury to his left elbow, Messier is struggling big time. The $6-million-US man is pointless in his last six games and was a minus-3 in the 4-2 loss at Tampa Bay Wednesday night.

Critics are howling. Some even suggest the future Hall of Famer is stealing the Canucks' money.

"I'm just trying to do the best I can," says Messier, who insists the criticism doesn't bother him.

"I've had an elbow injury the last two weeks that makes my arm about 10 per cent. It's frustrating to play like that but we don't have a break in the schedule right now. I guess the right thing to do would be to take two weeks and let it heal but I can't do that."

But head coach Mike Keenan thinks all the negative talk does hurt.

"He's a proud athlete," said Keenan. "A great athlete and he doesn't deserve it. He's taken a lot of hits (from the press) but he has a tremendous mental outlook that keeps him positive."

Asked about the stealing money comments, Messier spoke about the club's positives.

"The team is going in the right direction and that's what is most important to me," he says, despite the Canucks 21-37-11 record and the virtual inevitability that they won't make the playoffs. "We're on the right track but we dug ourselves a huge hole.

...

"I don't like where we are in the standings but I see the team going in the right direction and that's important," he said. "I said when I came here that it would take time and it will."

Keenan had been using Messier well over 20 minutes a game but against Tampa Bay he played just over 16 minutes.

Asked if the heavy work load has taken a toll, Messier said: "The ice time is not a factor at all."

...
Emperor Messier gets too much ice: [Final Edition]
Gallagher, Tony. The Province [Vancouver, B.C] 15 Mar 1998: A87.

Neil Macrae indicated on these pages this week Mark Messier was stealing money with his performance on the ice.

While many in this town would have preferred he say this to Messier's face, he definitely began treading on some interesting turf.

The difficulty with Messier's performance these days is ice time. He's getting far too much, and in order to handle it he's doing what any player would have to do whether he was 37 or 17. He's having to take some shortcuts. You see it most on penalty killing when he's playing up high, going for a breakaway or scoring opportunity and taking a little skate after he goes to the point instead of making the hard stop. But there is no way you can expect a man of that age to play 24 or 28 minutes hard with the kind of contact he used to make as an Oiler.

Messier plays so much because he's a proud man and wants to still do the things he did as a kid. He wants to kill penalties even though he's spent the better part of two seasons now proving he can't anymore...

...

Mike Keenan doesn't make this change for two reasons. One is Messier had a good deal to do with him getting the job here. The last thing he's going to do is piss Messier off. The coach saw what happened to his friend Roger Neilson when he cheesed Messier off in New York. He has no intention of following the same path.

...
Ciccone hits the Mark: Messier's leadership credentials questioned: [Final Edition]
Bell, Terry. The Province [Vancouver, B.C] 19 Mar 1998: A67.

TAMPA -- Enrico Ciccone saved his best shots for Wednesday's 4-2 Lightning win over the Canucks.

But Wednesday morning in the basement of the Ice Palace he couldn't help firing one Mark Messier's way.

Still confused by last week's chain of events that saw him sent home to Vancouver and then traded to Tampa for Jamie Huscroft, Ciccone wondered aloud why the Canucks captain didn't support him during the fray.

"Usually the captain is supposed to be the players captain," said Ciccone. "I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Mark Messier. I was ready to die for that guy but I guess the feeling was not mutual.

"When something like that happens you've gotta speak up for the player."

Messier shrugged it off: "I'm not going to react to that," he said. "It's all over now."

...
Things changed when Brian Burke became the new general manager, but a great deal of damage had been done already. Messier literally tried to be GM, coach and captain all at once, running a team that was just average straight into the ground. They went from missing the playoffs by 4 points in 1996-97 to being last in the Western Conference in 1997-98. That season was problematic from the very beginning; Messier was a distraction, and yet he was at the center of control that year alongside Mike Keenan.
Burke livens up a stale franchise: Ex-assistant general manager Brian Burke makes his mark on the Vancouver Canucks after just one day on the job.: [Final Edition]
Mason, Gary. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 23 June 1998: F3 / FRONT.

...

There was a lot of that my stuff. No more committees. Everyone would have their role clearly defined. Including the team's other resident superstar, Mark Messier.

Maybe this was the boldest part of Burke's Brave New World speech. Where he demonstrated just how different things would be. He was asked about Messier's role, perceived or otherwise, in personnel decisions last season. It would have been easy for Burke to have got on his tip toes and danced delicately around this one. To have said he had no interest in discussing yesterday's problems. He could have ducked out the side door. But didn't.

"It doesn't matter [if he played a role in personnel decisions] because he doesn't now. All Mark Messier is going to be for me is a player and he is a great player and if our team is going to play better next year we're going to need Mark. No question we need Mark to play better than he did last year and I think he will. But I'm gonna simplify his life. All he has to do now is play. Just come to practice, lace up his skates and play. It's real simple. I don't care what happened last year. I do not involve players in personnel decisions."

...
Works Cited

Bell, Terry. "Ciccone Hits the Mark: Messier's Leadership Credentials Questioned." The Province: 0. Mar 19 1998. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

Gallagher, Tony. "Emperor Messier Gets Too Much Ice." The Province: 0. Mar 15 1998. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

Kerr, Grant. "Highlights are Few and Far between this Season for Messier." The Globe and Mail: 0. Jan 14 1998. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

Mason, Gary. "Burke Livens Up a Stale Franchise: Ex-Assistant General Manager Brian Burke Makes His Mark on the Vancouver Canucks After just One Day on the Job." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Jun 23 1998. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

Mason, Gary. "Messier Calls for Team Unity: Canucks' Captain Angry with Loose- Lipped Teammates Airing Beefs through the Media, Calling it `completely Unacceptable.'." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Jan 10 1998. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

Mason, Gary. "Messier: Did the Canucks Miss the Mark?: It has Not been a Vintage Season for the Canucks and their Newest Captain." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Apr 17 1998. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .
 

Sonny Lamateena

Registered User
Nov 2, 2004
1,261
14
Ottawa, Ontario

JA

Guest
Declining on-ice product. Old boys management (your own words).

How was a major house-cleaning not needed?

Quinn knew what the problems were. The team narrowly missed the playoffs in 1996-97; there were a few distractions that season, problems with injuries (Bure, etc), a lack of depth at center, and some goaltending issues (some say Kirk was never the same after the Jeff Brown scandal). That said, the team went into the off-season with 15 players going into free agent status. Tom Renney was a rookie coach that year and made several mistakes. He was not the right coach for the team. The team also had no perceived depth on defense. The team needed to retool, not rebuild. The core group was adequate. Dismantling the team and giving them their worst season in years was unnecessary.

Quinn brought in Messier to shore up the center situation. When Messier complained from the beginning that the team needed to be "revamped," John McCaw bit and brought in Mike Keenan on Messier's recommendation.
Canucks re-evaluate after poor campaign Coaching staff will stay in place, GM says
Kerr, Grant. The Globe and Mail [Toronto, Ont] 17 Apr 1997: A.15.

VANCOUVER -- The brain trust of the Vancouver Canucks faced the media yesterday as they attempt to come to terms with their disappointing National Hockey League season. The team will leave its coaching staff in place, will work on improving team chemistry and won't increase prices for present season-ticket holders, the Canucks' general manager, Pat Quinn, said. The 1996-97 season saw the Canucks miss the NHL playoffs for the first time in seven years.

"For whatever reasons, our team didn't succeed," Quinn told a news conference with grim-faced coach Tom Renney at his side. "You look at the core players and determine what you have to do to bring about a different result." Vancouver missed the Western Conference playoffs with a 35-40-7 record with Renney, a rookie coach, behind the bench.

"You can't point to the coaching staff and say it's their fault," Quinn said. "You can't point to a single man or position; . . . team defence was not good enough." Quinn was critical of team chemistry, saying the Canucks need to be much stronger as a group. "That's the biggest [question] facing us as a management team," he said. "The intangible side of the game is the most elusive."

Vancouver has 15 free agents to deal with during the off season. Quinn said qualifying offers would be made to Alexander Mogilny and Sergei Nemchinov. Mogilny was the centre of controversy midway through the season when the right-winger said the Canucks needed more skilled centres to make plays.

Quinn defended Mogilny, saying he was "baited into making statements" by his agent and "was made to look foolish."

Renney said he made mistakes of his own, perhaps even overcoaching that caused confusion at times. "But I felt they could have plowed through what we were trying to accomplish," Renney said. Renney said NHL veteran Esa Tikkanen had a negative effect in the Vancouver dressing room during contract squabbles with management.

Tikkanen and Russ Courtnall were traded to the New York Rangers in March for Nemchinov and Brian Noonan, leaving Renney "feeling more comfortable because the team was." Criticism of Renney's coaching surfaced late in the season through anonymous player statements.

...

Added Renney: "I am not the major problem of this hockey club. I could be the solution."

...

The GM expects right-winger Pavel Bure to return next season fully recovered from a whiplash injury, while left-winger Martin Gelinas will probably renegotiate his contract to reflect his contributions after a 35-goal season.

...
Canucks willing to pay the price for Sakic
Kevin Paul Dupont The Boston Globe, NHL Notes. Star - Phoenix [Saskatoon, Sask] 12 May 1997: C2.

When the summer comes in Colorado usually minutes after the end of the Stanley Cup parade the Avalanche must figure out what to do with Joe Sakic. In other words, is it prepared to pay him the same $5 million or $6 million a year it has committed to Peter Forsberg? If not, look for the Vancouver Canucks to be very interested. They tried to land Wayne Gretzky, prior to his bolting to the New York Rangers, and were willing to pay Gretzky $5 million a year or better. Sakic is from British Columbia, which adds to his appeal for the Canucks, but to sign him away as a free agent would cost them five first-round picks as compensation. Look for Canucks general manager Pat Quinn to call Colorado GM Pierre Lacroix first and try to swing a deal, one that likely would have the Avalanche asking for Trevor Linden . . .
Canucks must make changes: Another losing effort Saturday is more evidence the player mix isn't working for Vancouver.: [FINAL Edition]
MacIntyre, Iain. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 03 Mar 1997: C.2.

...

Canuck captain Trevor Linden conceded as much last week when he said he could look at dressing room stalls and count the players who are behind him and those who aren't. ``I'd say it's about half and half,'' he said. He didn't name names. In most cases, he doesn't have to.

``Esa Tikkanen is the head of the snake there,'' a prominent official from a rival Western Conference team said several weeks ago, which was about when the Canucks should have purged themselves of the griping 32-year-old who Saturday appeared again to be playing not to injure himself so when he becomes a free agent this summer someone will still want him.

Just as Quinn allowed malcontent Roman Oksiuta to ferment for months in the dressing room last season, so Tikkanen has gone unremoved.

...

Many have wondered where Naslund fits in on the Canucks. The answer is he doesn't... It is absurd to have him on a second line and Pavel Bure on the third, and Renney finally restored the order against Los Angeles when he gave up on Naslund and put Bure on a line with Alex Mogilny. Bure, however, was back on the third line for Sunday's practice, skating with Mike Sillinger and Gino Odjick while Naslund rejoined Mogilny and Mike Ridley.

On defence, there are no villains, just victims -- players who look over their depth. Nearly two years after the Canucks began experimenting with prospects on defence, there remains no one beyond the first four of Jyrki Lumme, Dana Murzyn, Bret Hedican and Dave Babych who looks capable of playing nightly. Adrian Aucoin has a terrifically hard shot, as the glass cleaners at G.M. Place can attest, but continues to make dubious choices with and without the puck. Reclamation project Chris Joseph's play has deteriorated badly enough he has spent the last two games in the press box. Leif Rohlin, who can squeak by when he wills himself to play with grit, is simply over-matched against big forwards, especially when the opposition cycles the puck and pressures the Canuck goal.

Only the Canucks' harshest critics would fail to acknowledge a greater urgency to their play. Bure worked hard Saturday and had seven shots. Mogilny, who a month ago seemed ready to follow Tikkanen's lead and quit, fought hard for the pucks in his corner. Linden played another terrific game and was the Canucks' best player.

Vancouver out-shot the Kings 35-22, including 10-1 in the first 11 minutes. They out-chanced and out-hit them. They were better everywhere but in goal, where Kirk McLean was ordinary and King Stephane Fiset outstanding.

It was a positive sign that the Canucks had 12-15 players working hard and in unison. Linden's math was off. Only one quarter of the team is a problem.
The black and blue-line; Canucks defence battered by injuries, inconsistent play
Edmonton Journal [Edmonton, Alta] 23 Sep 1997: D.3.

The Achilles heel of the Vancouver Canucks last year has quickly reappeared during the NHL preseason.

Inconsistent team defence is already hurting the revamped team despite the off-season additions of NHL veteran Grant Ledyard and promising Swedish rookie Mattias Ohlund to the blue-line brigade.

The Canucks have lost five straight exhibitions and in the last four allowed 22 goals.

Shaky goaltending and poor positional play are part of the problem confronting second-year coach Tom Renney going into tonight's preseason game in Tacoma, Wash., against the Los Angeles Kings.

"I'm concerned with our defensive approach to the game," Renney said Monday.

"We've got to make sure we pay attention to the defensive side of the game and we're going to work on that throughout the week.

"The back end's got to improve a little bit and our forwards can help them do that."

The Canucks have three goaltenders -- Kirk McLean, Corey Hirsch and newcomer Arturs Irbe -- and one will be exposed in the NHL waiver draft before the regular season begins Oct. 1.

Irbe has struggled and gave up six goals Sunday when the Canucks allowed a 5-1 lead to slip away into a 6-5 defeat against the Edmonton Oilers.

Ledyard and Irbe joined the Canucks in the summer as unrestricted free agents after electing not to return to the Dallas Stars.

...

The Vancouver defence can often be sluggish and the lanky Ohlund is expected to provide a stronger physical presence at six-foot-four and 210 pounds.

...
JEFF RUD - Prof gives Canucks a C+ in free agency 101
Rud, Jeff. Times - Colonist [Victoria, B.C] 02 Aug 1997: 1.

WAS IT A CLASSIC case of impulse buying? Or was it some awfully shrewd shopping by the Vancouver Canucks? The jury on the Mark k Messier signing will likely remain out for a couple of winters as folks wrestle with the concept of shelling out at least $20 million US to a 36-year-old hockey icon whose finest moments on the ice are likely behind him. UVic economist Dr. Colin Jones, for one, believes the Canucks would have been better off opening the vault for Colorado restricted free-agent Joe Sakic, a player eight years younger than Messier.

"If Messier was in his prime, it would be a different situation," Jones says, "but he's old for a hockey player, especially the way he plays. I don't know if the Canucks will get their money's worth or not. Obviously, they think so."

...

But Jones sees things a little differently. An industrial organization economist who has spent considerable time studying the economics of sport, he believes Sakic represented a better long- term investment for Vancouver's NHL franchise.And what about the five first-round draft picks that the Canucks would have been forced to surrender in order to sign Burnaby Joe under the NHL's quirky free-agency rules? Even considering that, Jones would have given the nod to Sakic.

"Given the Canucks' recent history in the draft, that really doesn't seem like a very high price," he says. Canucks' first-round draft picks? Hmmm, let me see . . . Do the names Libor Polasek, Jason Herter and Josh Holden ring a bell? Didn't think so. Point well made professor.

"Sakic would have been better, long-range, from a financial point of view," Jones says. He may be right. But there are a couple of strong, if somewhat less academic, arguments in favor of Messier.

First is his marquee value. Yes, Sakic is a B.C. boy and, yes, he is a wonderfully talented hockey player. But Messier is on another level when it comes to star power. Sakic is, oh, about five Stanley Cups and one or two legends behind.

...

And here's the bottom line on the Messier deal. Canucks owner John McCaw has lost more money in the cushions of his couch than most of us will ever dream about. Messier is costing this cellular Richie Rich only money. The Moose is yet another asset and, depending on McCaw's accountants, yet another tax writeoff. When Canucks fans look back on the Messier signing two or three years from now, what's the worst-case scenario? That it cost McCaw some serious money? The best-case scenario has something to do with a shiny silver trophy being skated slowly around GM Place.

...
Hockey: Messier signs with Canucks: [Final Edition]
Bailey, Ian. Kingston Whig - Standard [Kingston, Ont] 30 July 1997: 25 / FRONT.

The Vancouver Canucks, looking for the Stanley Cup that has eluded them since they joined the NHL in 1970, signed hard-nosed centre Mark Messier yesterday. For Vancouver president and GM Pat Quinn, signing Messier to a three-year deal with an option was all about character and winning.

"His winning attitude is something that is going to rub off on all of us and will bring us closer to being the type of team we want to be," said Quinn. The 36-year-old free agent spent the last six seasons with the New York Rangers, helping the Broadway Blues beat the Canucks in the 1994 Stanley Cup final.

Messier has hoisted the Cup six times, and one of the more memorable images in hockey in recent years was when he lifted the Cup after the victory over Vancouver - a huge smile on his face after the Rangers ended their 54-year championship drought.

"Hopefully I can come in here and help out in any way that I can to bring Canada, bring Vancouver, what they're really hoping for - the Stanley Cup," Messier said.

"I can't wait to get started," he added.

...

Quinn said Messier - though expensive for the Canucks - is worth the money because he can help lead the team to a Stanley Cup.

"[Messier] is not going to be the Messiah, but he is going to make a big difference," said Quinn. Canucks captain Trevor Linden quipped that he looks forward to having Messier as an ally, not a rival.

"It's going to be great to be on his side for awhile, and not have to take all those face-offs against him," said Linden.

...

"Our objective is to win the Stanley Cup. It always has been," said Quinn. "We simply have added to our core of leadership and the intangibles that Mark will bring with him to our group of players will allow us to get a little closer to our goal." Messier donned a Canucks sweater, with No. 11, to cheers and applause at a news conference at GM Place.

...

Messier called the Canucks "a great fit." Quinn could only agree, saying Messier brings so much to the team. "I've had the privilege of watching Mark as an opposing coach and manager for a long time," Quinn said. "And to see the steely jaw and the eyes set ... the record that comes about through his team play. That speaks to me about the things we wanted to build on here."

...
Tinkering Canucks may not be finished
Services, S P. Star - Phoenix [Saskatoon, Sask] 04 Sep 1997: B2.

There's still plenty of unfinished business for the Vancouver Canucks after a hectic summer produced newcomers Mark Messier, Grant Ledyard, Mattias Ohlund and Arturs Irbe.

But what about Alexander Mogilny, Bret Hedican and Martin Gelinas?

Or even Pavel Bure and his trade-me-now demand?

The often-injured Bure will earn $5.5 million US this season, but wants to play for a contending NHL team, preferably in New York or Los Angeles.

Insiders say Bure will still be in a Canucks uniform when training camp opens Sept. 10 at Whistler resort north of Vancouver.

Mogilny and Hedican could be holdouts as the free agents are unsigned and apparently not close in negotiations after an off- season of free spending by the Canucks, who missed the playoffs last spring.

Pat Quinn, vice-president and general manager, handles the contracts of high-profile players and was in Chicago on Wednesday for scheduled GM meetings regarding rules, regulations and the Olympics.

"I think we'll be a changed team because a lot of guys are coming in with a fresh approach," said Mike Penny, promoted this week to assistant GM. "We should be much improved.

"And the fact of the matter is that Bure is going to be at training camp. He's healthy for a change. So are Jyrki Lumme, Trevor Linden and Kirk McLean. They should have big years, all things considered."

The experienced Messier comes from the New York Rangers with acknowledged leadership skills, while Ledyard (from Dallas) and Ohlund (Sweden) should improve a defence that was dreadful last season.

...
It seems once the season started, Messier thought himself as being bigger than the team or even management. He thought he knew what was best for the team. What the team should have done was, as RandV has suggested, replace management at the start of the 1997 off-season. The team should have steered clear of Messier and sought someone younger. They should not have allowed the player to dictate the new coach/manager. Injuries, unstable goaltending, and distractions throughout the year threw the team off.

Adding Messier, Ledyard, Ohlund, and Irbe was not a retool. None of those players, at that time, made the Canucks any better. The distractions and dismantling of the team that ensued throughout the year made them far worse than they ought to have been.

The 1997-98 Canucks were run by committee. It was an unstable mess.
Works Cited

Bailey, Ian. "Hockey: Messier Signs with Canucks." Kingston Whig - Standard: 0. Jul 30 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

Dupont, Kevin Paul. "Canucks Willing to Pay the Price for Sakic." Star - Phoenix: 0. May 12 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

Kerr, Grant. "Canucks Re-Evaluate After Poor Campaign Coaching Staff Will Stay in Place, GM Says." The Globe and Mail: 0. Apr 17 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

MacIntyre, Iain. "Canucks must make Changes: Another Losing Effort Saturday is More Evidence the Player Mix Isn't Working for Vancouver." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Mar 03 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

Rud, Jeff. "JEFF RUD - Prof Gives Canucks a C+ in Free Agency 101." Times - Colonist: 1. Aug 02 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

"The Black and Blue-Line; Canucks Defence Battered by Injuries, Inconsistent Play." Edmonton JournalSep 23 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

"Tinkering Canucks may Not be Finished." Star - Phoenix: 0. Sep 04 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .
 

JA

Guest
Before Messier:
Bure 23 goals
1st-season with Messier:
Bure 51 goals

Whoa, hold on. You're not implying Messier is the reason for Bure's return to form, are you? That was definitely not the case.

The difference was that Bure was, for the first time since November 1995, healthy. He suffered from whiplash throughout the entire 1996-97 campaign; he played through frequent headaches.

Over the next three seasons in Florida after that, we saw that Bure did not need anyone to produce those kinds of numbers. He probably would have had even greater numbers if he had some better linemates, but 50 was something he could do alone.
Pavel looking like Bure of old: [Final C Edition]
MacIntyre, Iain. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 22 Oct 1997: F3.

DALLAS -- He may not be happy and he may not be here when the season ends, but of what little we know about Pavel Bure, this much is true: he is playing better than he has in more than two years.

The Russian Rocket, continuing to show signs of recovering the sublime form that made him a two-time 60-goal scorer earlier this decade, was outstanding Tuesday in the Vancouver Canucks' 5-1 victory against the Dallas Stars, scoring three times.

Bure had seven shots and was plus-two, and his hat trick was his first in 2 1/2 mostly injury-plagued seasons.

"I can tell you that I feel pretty well," Bure said when asked if he feels as good as he did in his glory seasons. "It's always fun when you win games."

Bure doubled his goal total to six in the Canucks' first eight games. Pro-rated over a season, that's a 60-goal pace.

"There are more to come," Bure's friend and teammate, Gino Odjick said. "He's doing the right things; when he gets the puck he cuts to the net. When he's having a hard time, he goes wide or he turns back.

"He just seems more relaxed now. He's doing good. And when he does good, everybody does good and we'll all be more happy in the long run."

One of the happiest Canucks at the moment is Donald Brashear, who is getting an opportunity to ride shotgun with Bure and Mark Messier on the first line.

Brashear set up Bure's second-period goal, finding his streaking linemate with a blind, backhand pass that caught the Dallas defence flat-footed.

"You give him the puck on the fly and there's a good chance it will end up in the net," Brashear said. "It seems like he's got his speed back. Those injuries the last two years really bothered him. I think he's back now playing better than ever."

...

"He's just bouncing on his skates right now," Canuck Scott Walker said. "I've been watching him for a couple of seasons now and he's playing better than ever. Having fun is a big part of that."
For a few games, Keenan had Pavel playing center. He double-shifted with Messier, but he was fully capable of producing on his own (as we well know):
Russian roulette with centre Bure pays off for coach:: [Final Edition]
MacIntyre, Iain. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 27 Nov 1997: F1 FRONT.

...

Pavel Bure for the Selke Trophy? Wow, things do happen fast in those New York minutes... a more surprising and less conspicuous storyline Tuesday was Bure's solid debut as a regular centre.

After experimenting in practices and on rare game shifts by using Bure, a right winger his entire National Hockey League career, as a centre, Vancouver Canuck coach Mike Keenan played Russian roulette by playing the Russian Rocket in the middle for most of the game against the Rangers. Keenan's gamble paid off handsomely. Often matched against some guy named Gretzky, Bure was a plus-two and contributed a crushing shorthanded goal in the Canucks' memorable 4-2 victory at Madison Square Garden. Wayne Gretzky, who has only 2,730 points in his career, was held scoreless and finished minus-two.

No wonder Bure was at centre again in Wednesday's Canuck practice, as Keenan clearly intends to stick with an experiment many originally thought was supposed to be only a wakeup call to the player.

...

"He has been super [about the change]. The bottom line is he has the ability to make a quick adaptation. He can handle the puck and make plays... Pavel is not only an offensive threat, but he becomes a little bit of a preoccupation to the people you play him against because they're respectful of his ability and that takes the edge off the opponent."

...

"Pavel came to me before the game and said: `Can I ask you one thing?"' assistant coach Glen Hanlon recalled. "I said `sure' and he asked: `How do you play centre?' Pavel's such a perfectionist; he wants to do everything right."

Ranger coach Colin Campbell, who had the benefit of last line change, initiated the Gretzky-Bure matchup.

"I played a lot against Wayne even when he was with Los Angeles," Bure said. "I like to play against him because he's so smart. When you play, it's like a mind game. You're trying to guess what he's going to do... It's really hard, but when you guess right you're so happy because, well, he's Wayne."

Keenan said he is trying to make Bure a centre because he doesn't want to have all his best players on one line and the Canucks lack depth in the middle. Trevor Linden, the second-line centre for most of the last two years, is injured, although Keenan has said he believes the Canuck is more effective on right wing.

...
I think Messier appreciated having Pavel on his line more than the opposite:
Mess: I'll miss Pavel: Captain pays tribute, says Bure `needs a change': [Final Edition]
Jamieson, Jim. The Province [Vancouver, B.C] 15 Apr 1998: A56 / FRONT.

He's only seen him up-close for seven months, but no one will be sorrier to see Pavel Bure go than Mark Messier.

The Russian Rocket is about to play his last three games as a Vancouver Canuck, the first of those tonight against the visiting Los Angeles Kings. And Messier -- Bure's constant centre this season -- feels the upcoming loss as much as any fan who's been lifted out of their seat by the right winger's moves over the past seven seasons.

"I've enjoyed the year with him a lot," said Messier after Tuesday's practice at GM Place. "Players are better now than they've ever been and he's certainly one of the best in the game today -- which is quite a statement. He's an electrifying player who has the ability to score big goals in crucial situations. You don't replace someone like Pavel. He's a one-of-a-kind player."

Although there have been various tap-dancing routines from Bure and management surrounding his desire to play elsewhere next season, Messier finally acknowledged what's been clear for a while.

"I don't think there's any secret about it and it doesn't have anything to do with this year with Pavel," said Messier. "I think he's made it clear that he's wanted to make a move for the past few years. That's going to be completely up to Mike (coach Keenan) and ownership. He's a world-class player and moves like that have to be given a lot of consideration. Players like that don't come along very often."

...

Bure has clearly returned to the form he enjoyed prior to his knee injury early in the 1995-96 season. But despite not wanting to be in Vancouver, he's had a spectacular season and can reach the 50- goal plateau tonight against the Kings.

"I think that shows you part of Pavel's character," said Messier. "That's something that's probably been overlooked about Pavel. I think it's been misunderstood how good a team player he is in that he's able to put all that aside and come to the rink and play hard and feels he has an obligation to his teammates."

...
Works Cited

Jamieson, Jim. "Mess: I'Ll Miss Pavel: Captain Pays Tribute, Says Bure `needs a Change'." The Province: 0. Apr 15 1998. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

MacIntyre, Iain. "Pavel Looking Like Bure of Old." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Oct 22 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

MacIntyre, Iain. "Russian Roulette with Centre Bure Pays Off for Coach:" The Vancouver Sun: 0. Nov 27 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .
 
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JA

Guest
The Canucks in 1997 to 2000 sucked, with or without Messier. Obviously Messier didn't play that well, nor did the team, but only a loser-mentality would attempt to pin this on one player. THE FACT IS THIS WAS A NON-PLAYOFF TEAM, AND ALREADY IN DECLINE, BEFORE MESSIER ARRIVED.

The Canuck-management is mainly to blame for bringing in Messier when it should have been obvious that a youth-movement led by up-and-comers was what was needed, not a strong veteran presence to lead.

But the individual who is MOST to blame for any dressing-room problems in 1997-98 is Trevor Linden. He crapped the bed when he gave up the captaincy to Messier.

I didn't understand that when I heard about it in '97, and it makes less sense now. Seriously, what was he thinking? Linden had been team captain for five or six years before 1997. Has anyone ever heard of any player giving up the captaincy after six years because of one veteran free-agent signing??

Messier did the best he could with a messed-up team in transition. By the middle of his third and last season, the ship had been righted, and was sailing in the right direction.

It's a good thing Messier was there to guide some of those young guys, since Linden wasn't willing to do it.
Trevor did not want the captaincy issue to become a distraction. After Messier's signing, the media pestered him about it on a constant basis. By the start of the season, it was beginning to become a distraction because some wanted the shiny, new member of the team to be the captain. The players didn't anticipate it. Apparently, Messier and Linden had talked about it on numerous occasions. Mark never refused.

Dave Randorf gives his take:
Linden still possesses C-word: Class: [Final Edition]
Randorf, Dave. The Province [Vancouver, B.C] 03 Oct 1997: A47.

...

As we wait tonight for the puck to drop in Tokyo, a lot of fans should be relieved now that Trevor Linden has surrendered the captaincy to Mark Messier. It was an issue that was sure to come up again and again at less opportune times and it's a big burden off the shoulders of a guy who deserves more respect than he gets.

Around here, both Linden and Messier did a pretty good job making the captaincy a non-issue with the media. But once the pre-season began, every out-of-town reporter Linden faced was asking the same questions.

"How can you wear the C with Messier on the team?" He was even getting it in Japan!

Despite what he and Messier said, we all knew this thing was not going to go away. It was going to bubble under the surface until the team went through its first inevitable slump of the season. Then it would rear its ugly head again becoming the itch they just couldn't scratch. Just imagine how awkward it would be to surrender the C part way through the season. Instead, surrendering the official leadership role now just confirms what a leader Linden truly is. He realized that in such an important season for this hockey team, the fewer distractions there were the better.

...

However, not once has Linden backed down from his responsibilities of being the spokesman for an underachieving hockey team. He doesn't have the necessary character? This takes more character and guts than many of us will ever know.

Also, Linden has maintained that leadership goes far beyond a letter on one's jersey. It's not as if he going to stop being the player he's been all this time. In a way, the Canucks now have two captains, but bringing different elements to the table. But for the record, it will now be Messier carrying the load in the leadership category. There's certainly no shame in handing over the reigns to one of the greatest leaders in all of sports. I just hope he knows what he's gotten himself into here!

This will be Linden's 10th season as a Vancouver Canuck. With less weight on his shoulders on and off the ice, many are predicting this could be Linden's best season in Vancouver. There's a good chance it could also be his last. He's in the final stage of his contract before the option year kicks in and, depending on what happens this season, he may exercise that opportunity to explore free agency for a change of scenery. The day that happens, this city will lose a lot.

It's been said over and over again but in a pro sports world filled with clowns, Linden is a class act. He's proven it once again this week.

...
Linden could sense Mark "The Winner" Messier wanted to be the leader of the team.
Linden now on the 'A' list: [Final C Edition 1]
Jamieson, Jim. The Province [Vancouver, B.C] 03 Oct 1997: A60 / FRONT.

TOKYO -- After showing what leadership is all about, the new ex- captain of the Vancouver Canucks isn't likely to be without a letter very long.

Already both of the Vancouver Canucks' assistant captains -- Dana Murzyn and Pavel Bure -- have said they would give their "A" to Trevor Linden. Murzyn, in fact, has already made a standing offer to Linden.

"I've already talked to Trevor and offered it," said Murzyn on Thursday following the team's announcement that Linden would pass the captaincy to Mark Messier. "It's up to him, but I feel he should have a letter." Bure said he hadn't offered the A, but would give it up in a heartbeat.

"I'm willing to, no problem. For me having a letter is not a big deal," said Bure. "Trev's been a great leader a lot of years, but I think he made the right decision. Mark and he are like a different generation. Mark is 36 -- he's almost like having another coach."

It was clearly a very difficult decision for Linden, who stunned his teammates before practice on Thursday by announcing in the dressing room he'd be giving the C to Messier. But Linden still found some humor in the situation.

"The big problem is I don't know what I'm going to call the kids up in the box," quipped Linden, in reference to the GM Place luxury box called The Captain's Crew that he provides for under-privileged children at home games.

"It's just something that feels right. It wasn't a burden, so there's no relief in that sense. I looked upon it as something that was good for our team. It's something that's going to help Mark be more comfortable in the room and make him freer in his role. By doing this, I did away with the possibility that it would become another distraction from an external standpoint."

Linden's linemate, Martin Gelinas, said it was an emotional moment in the dressing room.

"A few guys shook Mark's hand and the guys were proud of Trevor, you could see that," he said.
Linden gives up C: Messier led Oilers, Rangers; will lead again: [Final C Edition 1]
Jim Jamieson and Terry Bell, Sports Reporters. The Province [Vancouver, B.C] 02 Oct 1997: A62.

TOKYO -- Trevor Linden took one for the team. Linden, the Vancouver Canucks full-time captain since the 1991-92 season, made the difficult decision to hand the captaincy to Mark Messier, the centre who is considered to be one of the greatest leaders in the history of the NHL.

Linden told his teammates at a meeting following practice and after talking with Messier.

"Mark and I talked through the last month or so and it just felt right to do it now," said Linden. "This was my decision. I'd be lying if I didn't say I was somewhat emotional, but this is twofold. It's the right thing for me personally."

...

After Messier, who'd captained the Edmonton Oilers and New York Rangers, signed as free agent in the summer, the issue of the captaincy was immediately raised, but both tap-danced around the issue until now.

"I told Trevor I understand where he's coming from," said Messier. "We met last night and my initial reaction was to ask him 'Do you feel good? Are there any negative feelings about this at all?' The way he handled this has been first class."

Whether Linden will become one of the two assistant captains is still to be determined. That would mean relieving either Pavel Bure or Dana Murzyn of their A -- with all the potential for noses out of joint. The move was a surprise to the players, even to Kirk McLean, a close friend of Linden.

"I had no clue that Trevor was going to do this," said McLean. "I don't think it will change anything about his role with the team.

...

"Mark's been feeling his way through the team since he got here, but I think everybody knows what type of leader he is."

Defenceman Jyrki Lumme said the issue was not a huge one in the dressing room, but that it's good to get it out of the way. "To be honest about it, the players don't really care if they wear an A, B or C," said Lumme.

"Trevor's been a great captain."
Linden started the year well before stumbling after the first seven games of the season. He had 3 goals, 8 points in those 7 games.
Linden shines in Messier's shadow: [Final Edition]
Pap, Elliott. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 20 Oct 1997: C1 FRONT.

Mark Messier is doing little offensively for the Vancouver Canucks but, unwittingly, he is assisting on every point by Trevor Linden.

Linden has been thriving as the team's second-line centre while Messier bears the brunt of the opposition's top checkers or defensive pairings.

The ex-Canuck captain scored twice and set up two others, including Donald Brashear's vital game-tying goal with 10.6 seconds remaining, in Sunday's entertaining 4-4 draw with the Colorado Avalanche at GM Place.

Linden's four points saved his pal Kirk McLean from coming up a loser in the latter's 500th career appearance. But McLean did come up injured after Avalanche winger Adam Deadmarsh steamrolled him late in the game in a goalmouth collision.

McLean admitted he was experiencing tightness in his neck and shoulder and was uncertain about his availability for Tuesday's road game in Dallas.

"It's a little stiff so we'll see how it is after tonight," said McLean, whose injury may open the door for Arturs Irbe, a spectator for every minute the 2-3-2 Canucks have played this season.

...

The Canuck power play managed to locate its pulse, going 2-for- 5, as head coach Tom Renney wisely put out his top three forwards -- Linden with Pavel Bure and Messier -- and let them go for it. They were rewarded with a gift goal when a wandering Patrick Roy conveniently placed a clearing attempt on Linden's stick. The second came on a tremendoous down-low slot pass from Linden to Bure.

Linden had earlier knotted the game 2-2 with a rocket off the right wing, typical of goals he often scored when he played that position.

"I thought Trevor played a great game," said Messier, who admitted he wasn't feeling 100 per cent, a fact borne out by his largely lethargic play. "Trevor played like a champion the whole game and it was great to see."

...
Messier had just 2 goals, 0 assists in those seven games. For whatever reason, Trevor slowed down afterward. After 23 games, he had 5 goals, 9 assists, 14 points. Then on November 20, 1997, he suffered a groin injury. He was out for 8 games. In January, he suffered a knee injury. For much of the second half of his campaign, Trevor was hurt. In spite of this, though, Keenan called him out:
Linden hurt in practice, will miss key road trip:: [Final Edition]
Pap, Elliott. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 20 Nov 1997: G1 FRONT.

...

Trevor Linden, who didn't miss a game for six seasons until last year, is gone again, perhaps for a long time after he severely pulled his right groin in practice Wednesday.

Striding out during an innocent one-on-one drill, Linden felt his muscle pop and left the ice in agony. Now he will have to watch from the medical room as new head coach Mike Keenan attempts to turn the team in a northerly direction. Linden was understandably distraught, especially with the Canucks finally showing signs of life.

"This comes at a terrible time, although there is never really a good time, I guess," said a grimacing Linden. "It is big-time sore. I never felt anything like that before." Linden missed 33 games last season, most of them with a sprained knee, and saw his ironman streak end at a club record 482 games. He will sit out tonight's game against the Phoenix Coyotes and almost certainly miss next week's long-awaited trip to New York, Boston and Toronto. "The team is starting to play well and we have a great trip coming up with a huge game in New York," sighed Linden. "You'd love to be a part of that."

...

"It's pretty disappointing," said Messier, who carries a nine- game point streak into the Phoenix game. "When I saw him come off, I thought it looked bad. Trevor has probably been our most consistent player so far and with Marty Gelinas coming back, we were going to have a chance to see how everything would fall into place. It's tough but in the end, you have to make your own fortune and your own breaks."

Defenceman Bret Hedican remembers how badly the Canucks missed Linden last season and hopes the team will be better able to cope this time around.

"Obviously Trevor is a guy who is there for us every night, whether it's playing physical, winning a face-off, or being the third man down low helping us out," Hedican said. "This will hurt, especially with the team starting to come around. Other guys will just have to step forward."

Keenan tried to shrug off the Linden injury, but he may not be so thrilled when he discovers the hole it will create in his lineup. Linden plays two positions and in every situation. He also has wonderful chemistry with Gelinas, who will be forced to find other linemates himself.

...
Injured groin may force Linden to miss road trip: [Final Edition]
Bell, Terry. The Province [Vancouver, B.C] 20 Nov 1997: A102.

Just when things were starting to look brighter for the Vancouver Canucks, assistant captain Trevor Linden hobbled off the ice Wednesday with what looks like a severe groin injury.

"It hurts -- big time," said Linden, who won't play tonight at GM Place against Phoenix.

"It just popped. It's very disappointing. The team has started to play so much better and we're heading out (Sunday) on a great trip (to New York, Boston, Toronto) and now this. I really want to be part of that (trip). That's going to be such a big game against the Rangers.

"I'd be very, very surprised," said Linden when asked if he'd be with the team when it heads for the Big Apple and the Mike Keenan/ Mark Messier Ranger reunion.

No one was saying much Wednesday because Linden still has to see team doctor Ross Davidson, who was busy in surgery all afternoon.

"I'll get it re-evaluated tomorrow," said Linden early Wednesday evening.

Linden didn't blame the ice. He insists that his skate didn't catch a rut.

"Not at all," he said. "I was just striding. (The groin) had been bugging me a bit before but I didn't think anything of it. I was not fully extending. I was going maybe 98 per cent.

"I've never had anything like this before."

Linden saw trainer Mike Burnstein after practice.

"He just said, 'A while,' " said Linden when asked how long Burnstein thinks he'll be out.

It's the third injury in less than a year for Linden. He had his 482-game Ironman streak ended last Dec. 7 after he tore the MCL in his knee against Philadelphia six days earlier. He missed eight games in March with a bruised rib.

...
Linden feels wrath of Mike: [Final Edition]
Bell, Terry. The Province [Vancouver, B.C] 15 Dec 1997: A38.

...

Sunday, after practice at Burnaby 8-Rinks, Keenan issued the following: "We may not make the playoffs, that's a reality. Whether we will or we won't remains to be seen. We can't worry about things beyond our control. We just have to focus on how we're playing."

That's what Keenan wants Linden and Gelinas to do. He benched Gelinas along with Lumme, Naslund, Mike Sillinger and Adrian Aucoin and he had a chat with Linden on the bench during Saturday's 5-2 loss to Colorado.

With Linden, Keenan re-iterated the theme he preached during a similar tete-a-tete in St. Louis last week.

"I asked him why he'd want to be a good player when he can be a great player," said Keenan, who has always demanded the most from his top players -- unloading some of them (Brendan Shanahan), feuding with others (Brett Hull) and nurturing others (Chris Chelios).

"I've seen him play better. He's capable of it. He needs to accept the role he's had here in the past. It's normal for all of us to get comfortable."

Linden, who has five goals and nine assists in 23 games while missing eight games with a groin injury suffered in practice last month, said he got the message.

"There's not a player in the dressing room he hasn't challenged," said Linden. "He asks everybody to be better. Whether it's fair or not is not for me to decide."

...
Linden sidelined with knee injury: Canuck winger hurts same knee that required major surgery last season, and it may cost him Olympic spot.: [Final C Edition]
MacIntyre, Iain. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 27 Jan 1998: E2.

PHOENIX -- Enduring the worst Vancouver Canuck season of his career, subjected to harsh private and public criticism by his coach, and likely to be traded before the end of the season, Trevor Linden's nightmarish winter took another cruel twist Monday along with his knee.

Linden injured his left knee when it buckled under him during a second-period fall and he now faces the prospect of losing his place at the Nagano Olympics.

The only Canuck chosen to play for Team Canada, Linden flies back to Vancouver today to have the knee examined. If it is anything more than a minor sprain, it will be almost impossible for Team Canada boss Bob Clarke not to replace him. The Olympics begin in two weeks.

"The way things have gone here, I didn't even think about that," a sombre Linden said with his damaged knee wrapped in ice long after the Canucks' 4-2 loss here against the Phoenix Coyotes.

"It's tough to leave a game like that and not be able to contribute."

Linden was injured behind the play midway through the second period when he bounced off Rick Tocchet's check into the boards and felt his left knee buckle.

It was the same knee that required major surgery last season.

"I just fell on it myself and got it caught under me," Linden said. "But it's not as bad [as last season] -- not even close. When I got hurt in Philadelphia, I could feel the joint come right apart."

The extent of Linden's injury, and his status on the Olympic team, should be known by the end of today.
Works Cited

Bell, Terry. "Injured Groin may Force Linden to Miss Road Trip." The Province: 0. Nov 20 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

Bell, Terry. "Linden Feels Wrath of Mike." The Province: 0. Dec 15 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

Jamieson, Jim and Terry Bell. "Linden Gives Up C: Messier Led Oilers, Rangers; Will Lead again." The Province: 0. Oct 02 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

Jamieson, Jim. "Linden Now on the 'A' List." The Province: 0. Oct 03 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

MacIntyre, Iain. "Linden Sidelined with Knee Injury: Canuck Winger Hurts Same Knee that Required Major Surgery Last Season, and it may Cost Him Olympic Spot." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Jan 27 1998. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

Pap, Elliott. "Linden Hurt in Practice, Will Miss Key Road Trip:" The Vancouver Sun: 0. Nov 20 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

Pap, Elliott. "Linden Shines in Messier's Shadow." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Oct 20 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

Randorf, Dave. "Linden Still Possesses C-Word: Class." The Province: 0. Oct 03 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .
 
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Sonny Lamateena

Registered User
Nov 2, 2004
1,261
14
Ottawa, Ontario
Trevor did not want the captaincy issue to become a distraction. After Messier's signing, the media pestered him about it on a constant basis. By the start of the season, it was beginning to become a distraction because some wanted the shiny, new member of the team to be the captain. The players didn't anticipate it. Apparently, Messier and Linden had talked about it on numerous occasions. Mark never refused.

Linden could sense Mark "The Winner" Messier wanted to be the leader of the team.

When Messier signed in Vancouver at the press conference he was asked about the captaincy and he publicly endorsed Linden saying their was no reason to change the captain.

Years later Linden admitted he felt had no choice but to give up the captaincy because if the team failed he was going to get second guessed.

Last year Messier admitted the one thing he would of done differently in Vancouver is he would not of accepted the C from Linden.
 

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