Why Mark Messier is Often Regarded the Worst/Most Hated Vancouver Canuck of All Time.

DisgruntledGoat*

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Dec 26, 2010
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First off, the Maki angle is ridiculous. Messier is supposed to know what numbers, and why, are retired in Vancouver when it seems McCaw and Quinn don't? Or don't care? This complaint has always struck me as absurd. And, either way, its an off-ice thing that I'm not sure why fans get so worked up about. I have yet to see Patrick Roy beating the doors off his house and having his wife call 911 be used against his Colorado tenure.

Originally Posted by Sentinel
Yes, I observed it first hand. It was painful to watch, and Rangers kept failing to make playoffs year after year. Sometimes a player needs to know when to retire. He was certainly harming his club more than helping it.

This doesn't really hold up to close scrutiny either. What blue-chip young players was Messier holding back? Those Rangers were a lousy team, if Messier continued to get too much ice-time (and the amount of ice-time he did get is exaggerated, as pointed out above) that's more of an indictment of Sather and the horrible teams he assembled than it is of Messier, IMO.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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or maybe a thread asking why a player has been remembered in a certain way by a fanbase isn't the right place to arrogantly tell that fanbase that you don't accept those reasons
 

hockeybrianboy

Registered User
Nov 11, 2013
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Chicago, IL
Do you mean hated by the franchises' own fans or by everyone else.

Because I have a hard time believing people outside of Vancouver hate Messier more than some guy named Todd Bertuzzi. Or Burrows.

But by its own fans, I could see that.
 

Wizeman*

Guest
Watching Trevor Linden retire as a Canuck was one of the sweetest things I will ever remember. If there is such thing as a 'hockey God' he certainly was there for Trevor that night.

He played his final game for the team he had loved and so loved him............in front of the very piece of !@$@! who ran him out of town.

And that piece of #@$#@ had to sit behind the Calgary bench and listen to us Cheer for our hero, something in the end, the colossal .***** could not take away from us.
 

Hardyvan123

tweet@HardyintheWack
Jul 4, 2010
17,552
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Vancouver
Watching Trevor Linden retire as a Canuck was one of the sweetest things I will ever remember. If there is such thing as a 'hockey God' he certainly was there for Trevor that night.

He played his final game for the team he had loved and so loved him............in front of the very piece of !@$@! who ran him out of town.

And that piece of #@$#@ had to sit behind the Calgary bench and listen to us Cheer for our hero, something in the end, the colossal .***** could not take away from us.

The bottom line is that Linden was the complete opposite of Moose in the eyes of Canuck fans during both players tenure here.

Moose quite simply had his ego and legacy driving his time here in Vancouver instead of actually leading the team.

It's not all his fault as ownership was a joke and the Mike Keenan circus was going on as well but Moose and his ego stuck their head out and Canuck fans gladly chopped it off, as was probably deserved.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
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Watching Trevor Linden retire as a Canuck was one of the sweetest things I will ever remember. If there is such thing as a 'hockey God' he certainly was there for Trevor that night.

He played his final game for the team he had loved and so loved him............in front of the very piece of !@$@! who ran him out of town.

And that piece of #@$#@ had to sit behind the Calgary bench and listen to us Cheer for our hero, something in the end, the colossal .***** could not take away from us.

especially when the game was over, but keenan's captain jarome iginla pulled every single player out of the tunnel and back on the ice to shake linden's hand.



(as a bonus, it turned out to be naslund's last game as a canuck too. take that how you wish.)
 

VanIslander

20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
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I cried when Messier signed with Vancouver because I knew our beloved Linden was toast. :cry: I knew to the core of my being that it meant he would be captain and Linden would be shipped out. Quinn signed his own walking papers with that signing as an early losing streak the following season cost him his job and Keenan came in and, well, it was just a matter of time before Linden was gone. It took a few more months, until the '98 Nagano Olympics for Linden to officially give up his captaincy, then was traded for McCabe, Bertuzzi and a pick that became J. Ruutu. That is the dark ages for the Canucks according to this Canucks fan who began his fandom on the Towel Power of the 1982 Stanley Cup Finals run. I don't hate Messier per se, but his name brings up such bad memories of the Canucks organization (fighting equally with his NYR heroics, 1990 Oilers cup riun and eighties glory in my memories). Messier had 17 great years of greater than a point-per-game average when he signed with the Canucks and I suspected the gravy train had ended and that the true captain of the Canucks, Linden, was gong to be pushed out. Ugh. What a mess.
 
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Sonny Lamateena

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Nov 2, 2004
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Ottawa, Ontario
Watching Trevor Linden retire as a Canuck was one of the sweetest things I will ever remember. If there is such thing as a 'hockey God' he certainly was there for Trevor that night.

He played his final game for the team he had loved and so loved him............in front of the very piece of !@$@! who ran him out of town.

And that piece of #@$#@ had to sit behind the Calgary bench and listen to us Cheer for our hero, something in the end, the colossal .***** could not take away from us.

Did anyone really run Trevor Linden out of town? He was playing like garbage, he gave away his captaincy and when Keenan challenged his heart in front of the team he didn't step up. He was dealt for better players and the team improved. 1997 Vancouver was a poisonous environment, a team on the decline, lead by entitled veterans who were heroes for losing in 1994.
 

Sentinel

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This doesn't really hold up to close scrutiny either. What blue-chip young players was Messier holding back? Those Rangers were a lousy team, if Messier continued to get too much ice-time (and the amount of ice-time he did get is exaggerated, as pointed out above) that's more of an indictment of Sather and the horrible teams he assembled than it is of Messier, IMO.

On paper these Rangers teams should've been amazing. In reality they were busts year after year. While I an in no way exonerating the coaches, those were Messier's teams. He was the captain, the mouthpiece, and was quite often running the team more than the head coach. To absolve him of those failures is crazy.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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On paper these Rangers teams should've been amazing. In reality they were busts year after year. While I an in no way exonerating the coaches, those were Messier's teams. He was the captain, the mouthpiece, and was quite often running the team more than the head coach. To absolve him of those failures is crazy.

Even on paper they didn't have any goaltending after Richter's injuries, and their defensemen other than Brian Leetch were so pathetic, Leetch was pushing 30 minutes per game even as he aged and clearly could no longer handle it.

The Rangers were a fun All-Star type team, but they were contructed a lot like the current Flyers, where the GM just kept bringing in big name forwards, while completely ignoring the blue line and goal.
 

FakeKidPoker*

Guest
Watching Trevor Linden retire as a Canuck was one of the sweetest things I will ever remember. If there is such thing as a 'hockey God' he certainly was there for Trevor that night.

He played his final game for the team he had loved and so loved him............in front of the very piece of !@$@! who ran him out of town.

And that piece of #@$#@ had to sit behind the Calgary bench and listen to us Cheer for our hero, something in the end, the colossal .***** could not take away from us.

Mike Keenan sent the Flames out to say goodbye to Linden though
 

Ofuzz

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Jul 11, 2006
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My memory is a little hazy but I think shortly after Linden's trade wasn't the final Olympic spot on Canada given to Trevor over Messier? I remember (kind of) thinking this was very just.

And as for that final game as a Canuck, I became a huge Iginla fan after that gesture he made towards Linden. Classy, classy.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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And as for that final game as a Canuck, I became a huge Iginla fan after that gesture he made towards Linden. Classy, classy.

Ya likewise. Very much impressed with him as a player & a person. Hell of a handle to boot; Jarome Arthur-Leigh Adekunle Tig Junior Elvis Iginila.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
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My memory is a little hazy but I think shortly after Linden's trade wasn't the final Olympic spot on Canada given to Trevor over Messier? I remember (kind of) thinking this was very just.

Linden was traded more than two months after being given a spot on the Olympic team.
 

mathonwy

Positively #toxic
Jan 21, 2008
19,439
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I think you guys are talking in a circle with regards to Messier.

The hatred for Messier isn't about statistics, it's about heart.

The Canucks have been a loser organization since inception. I don't remember 82 because I was too young but I know the 80s were a crapshow. Then 1988 came around and Patty Quinn and Bob McCammon drafted a young Trevor Linden and the Canucks organization started turning the corner. Then 1994 happened and through the magic of Trevor Linden, Pavel Bure and Kirk McLean, the city of Vancouver fell in love with the Canucks, many for the first time. (91 is when I boarded the Canuck bandwagon but 94 is when I fastened my seatbelt)

Mark Messier will always be hated in Vancouver because of a couple things.

1) Mark came and Trevor went. It's that simple. Linden was (is) a god in this town because of 94. It doesn't matter to the casual (bandwagon) fan that shipping Linden out was one of the best things that could have happened to the Canucks at that point of time.

2) Mark's time in Vancouver were horrible ones from a results point of view. Whether its his fault or not, Vancouver sucked. People don't remember details but people sure remember feelings and the late 90s Canuck fan was feeling pretty ****** at that point of time.

You can try to use logic and reason to try to convince the average Canuck fan that Messier isn't the devil but you'd just be wasting your time.

Just my 2 cents.
 

JA

Guest
Here are some very telling primary sources from the end of the 1997-98 season:
Messier: Did the Canucks miss the Mark?: It has not been a vintage season for the Canucks and their newest captain.: [Final Edition]
Mason, Gary. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 17 Apr 1998: E1 / FRONT.

...

"It's been a very successful season in some ways," he says. "A lot of things happened that had to take place and the changes have all been positive." It's been a familiar refrain of his lately. But Messier wasn't born yesterday, as his play often reminded us.

...

Expectations. Oh, yea, there were certainly those. About $37 million US worth of them. And Messier was a big chunk of that... I've studied Messier up close this season and don't know him one ounce better than I did before he arrived. Well, maybe I do. I know how important his image is to him and how closely he guards and protects it. And monitors it too. He's the only player who gets the daily press clippings delivered to his room on the road. He reads everything that's written about him. And the battering he's taken lately in the media must sting. He's all business. Messier doesn't indulge in the easy banter of his teammates. After the game, after he's showered and dressed, he steps before his dressing room stall, stiff-backed, chin up, to offer his pronouncements on the game. Then he's gone... He's often moved through this season alone. On the plane and team bus, he's sat by himself, deep in private thoughts. Most players couldn't summon the nerve to sit and chat with him. Which surprised me. I thought the art of team building, as Messier so expertly knows it, happened differently.

...

Messier was so identified with the city of New York. He embraced it and it embraced him... Again, maybe it's too early, but he hasn't seemed to form the same bond with this city. Made an emotional investment with the people. And I think the fans sense that too.

...

Messier's contribution this season will mostly be measured by his performance on the ice. While his offensive numbers aren't overwhelming, they aren't horrible either. His play away from the puck has been the biggest concern. But let's be clear here: this was not one of Messier's strong suits in New York either. He still thinks offence first, and maybe that's a hangover from his days with the Oilers. But Messier's defensive lapses have given other teams goals. And cost the Canucks games. Personally, this has been the most annoying aspect of Messier's conduct this season: Never once did I hear him single out his own poor play after a bad game... I never heard Messier say that this year: `that was my guy who scored. I have to pick him up. It cost us the game.'

What I have heard from Messier has surprised me. A great deal of talk about injuries that have plagued him. There were also the over- blown comments about the arena's bad ice. Regardless, it's often sounded like excuses and I've never known Mark Messier to rely on an excuse in his life.

...

Messier was always the teacher's pet. In Keenan's eyes, he could do no wrong. While the coach didn't hesitate to rip into anyone else for lackadaisical play, he would never finger his captain. If I was a player on that bench, watching the way Messier played some nights, I'd have problems with that. Because it smacks of preferential treatment. Which is okay if someone is playing like a superstar, but not if his wide circles are costing you goals.

While this might have cost Messier some respect in the dressing room this season, a bigger problem has been the role he's played in personnel decisions.

Former Canuck Gino Odjick's outspoken comments about Messier's thirst for power and the influence he has on all trades, speak best to the problem the Canuck captain has. He may not spend four hours in trade meetings, as Odjick suggested, but there's no question he's had input on moves. Shortly after arriving he talked to Tom Renney about a few players he thought weren't of any use to the team.

And I can see how this might create problems for teammates. For instance, when the first leaks from the Canuck dressing room started appearing in print this season, Messier was outraged. He called the unnamed players "gutless." He called it a complete betrayal of their teammates. But if Messier is talking to management, or the coach, about the fate of certain players, behind their back, who's betraying who here?

At times Messier has wanted to distance himself from this role and at other times he hasn't. He's been a skating contradiction.

When I talked to him in January he told me the team needed to be completely restructured. He also said he knew in the summer there were major problems with the team that would not be easy to fix. Now, he says he arrived with an open mind and no pre-conceived notions. Which is it?

In New York, Messier was the buffer between his teammates and Mike Keenan. He hasn't been that here. Again, as Odjick and others have said, Messier lost respect when he didn't defend players being verbally chastized by Keenan.

...
I blame Messier: With the Canucks captain in his sights, Gino Odjick hits his Mark: [Final Edition]
Gallagher, Tony. The Province [Vancouver, B.C] 02 Apr 1998: A64.

Gino Odjick has been thinking about speaking his mind for quite some time since leaving Vancouver. On Wednesday, perhaps the most popular player in the history of the Canucks pulled the trigger. The target was Mark Messier, the man Odjick says consults regularly with coach and acting GM Mike Keenan on trades and management moves and is largely responsible for the shambles this season has become. While declining to say what put him over the top and made him finally decide to speak out, Odjick started at the beginning.

"Messier was brought here to help lead us... and everybody was on board waiting to go along with him," said Odjick, who was in his eighth season with the Canucks when traded to the New York Islanders March 23..."... We were all looking forward to the season positively. It was going to be great. But right from the start it was clear he wanted to have all the power and wanted his own people around him.

"He didn't break a sweat for the first 10 games and just waited for Tom Renney and Pat Quinn to get fired.

"He talks to ownership all the time and he's responsible for Keenan being here and he's part of most of the trades... He's responsible for a lot of the changes.

"Look what happened with Trevor (Linden) in St. Louis when Keenan gave him (hell). Did he come over to him and say, 'Look Trev, we're with you?' He didn't say a word. How can you be captain like that? How can the team be together that way? He's not with the players. He's the one who controls everything."

...

"They signed him to help us but all he wanted was most of us out of there so he could bring in his own people. The organization has always been great, but he just wanted to tear it apart and do it his way. But you'll never see Keenan bench Messier, no matter how bad he plays."

Odjick did not pretend he was crucial to the success of the Canucks or any other team.

"I'm nobody. I'm not the kind of player who can carry a team or make a big difference. I haven't won six Stanley Cups, but I've always been able to look everyone I've ever played with in the eye. I've been honest and I've got to be honest. He (Messier) just wants to destroy everything so he gets the power. Everyone is brought in to play for Mark."

...
Messier calls for team unity: Canucks' captain angry with loose- lipped teammates airing beefs through the media, calling it `completely unacceptable.': [Final Edition]
Mason, Gary. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 10 Jan 1998: D1 / FRONT.

...

Messier was furious with the contents of my column Tuesday that detailed the dressing down Trevor Linden received from Mike Keenan in St. Louis last December. He also didn't like reading that a couple of players said the coach could end up getting punched out by someone if he didn't watch it. He hasn't enjoyed any of the sniping by anonymous players in the paper. To win, you must learn to be a team first, he said. That stuff, he says, is the furthest thing from what a team is all about.

"That is completely unacceptable, it's completely gutless. And everybody in the dressing room should have been f---ing pissed off about it because that destroys anything we've been trying to build and tears it down. Then we're starting from ground zero... We're not in a ********* soap opera here, we're in an organization that's trying to get itself back on its feet and try and do the things you need to win.

"I was so f---ing disgusted that I had to sit down for two days and finally let go. It was a complete betrayal of your teammates."

The stuff coming out from inside the locker room has only strengthened Messier's resolve to fix things here. But it's also served to remind him how big the challenge is.

...

"Ninety per cent of the players don't want to do it because it's so hard and maybe they don't see themselves in the role that they're playing or maybe they don't see themselves being played in the right situations or themselves being successful individually. Maybe they're under contract, maybe they're playing out their option. There's a million reasons why they don't."

...

"Everybody wants a player who's played on a championship team at some point."

You look at this Canuck team and you see a $37 million US lemon. Messier looks at this team and says the payroll doesn't mean anything.

"If anything, it's masqueraded some of the real problems here that are hampering the team. I think you have to take money out of the equation. This team needs to be completely restructured. Talent is only one element of many elements that it takes to be a competitive team, let alone a championship team."

Amazingly, Messier said he knew this summer "there were a lot of problems" with the team and that they wouldn't be easy to fix. That the major attitude adjustment that needed to take place would be long and likely painful.

"In my mind there's definitely a formula to winning. And I know, from all the championship teams I've played on, it's always the same kinds of things that were in place. The characters might have been different but the foundations of those teams were always the same... I'd like to help them explore themselves. To show them what it's like to be on a championship team and to feel how good and what a great feeling it is to completely commit yourself and be completely selfless and do whatever it takes to win instead of worrying about the end result."

Messier has thought a lot about winning, about the richness of the team experience when it all comes together. "I can't teach my students; I can only help them explore themselves," Messier says, quoting a well-known Buddhist verse.

...

Some people feel Messier's own play hasn't exactly been stellar. That Keenan is asking everyone else to go out and punish the opposition except Messier.

He says his game has changed over the years. He isn't as physically dominating a player as he once was because the players in the league have changed. They're bigger and faster. And they don't allow Messier to do the things he once did.

"And let's face it, I'm not 25 years old anymore. But I feel great physically and mentally. I'm as motivated as ever to do what it takes to win." He's also playing 25 to 30 minutes a game and when you're playing that much, at his age, you have to use your brains a bit more, not run at everything that moves. In an interview filled with important messages, Messier delivers a final one. His allegiance is completely to his teammates. He is not, as some have suggested, a GM disguised as a captain.

"That's so ridiculous. My allegiance has always been towards the players and [to] protect them from the coaching staff, press, outside people, whatever it is... It just makes me sick to my stomach [to hear that]. Trust in the team is the most important thing your teammates can have with each other. And if I'm the captain of this team, the players have to trust me that no matter happens I'm in their corner. I have nothing to do with player personnel on this team or whose going where or whose doing what.

"The players have to know I'm on their side and in their corner. The players have to be able to look each other in the eye and know you're going to war with each other."

Messier makes no apologies for sitting courtside with Keenan and owner John McCaw at a recent basketball game. A scene that cemented the impression in some people's minds that he was aligned more with management than the players.

He says McCaw's a friend who invited him to attend the game.

"I don't think there's anything wrong with that because there was nothing more than that. That's the way I want it and that's the way it should be."

...

It was time to go. Before he left I wondered whether Messier was prepared to make another of his fearless predictions. A `We Will Win' type of vow. I asked him whether the Canucks would make the playoffs.

"I think so," he said. It wasn't the resounding yes I was expecting. He elaborated.

"I don't think it should be our goal right now. Our long-term goal is to win the Stanley Cup and that's not out of our realm of thinking right now. Our short-term goal is to continue to improve and focus on the game. Not constantly be putting out brush fires. Not be fighting the enemy inside our own dressing room." And with that he left.
He lost a lot of respect in the dressing room for his hypocrisy: he was lazy, offered some of the most uninspired play of anyone on the team, provided no leadership in the dressing room, and yet seemed to demand that changes be made to shape the room into something more inspired. He isolated himself from his teammates and spent no time developing any sort of relationship with the community. That's not the way to go. He wanted to play the role of manager while also being one the most overpaid players on the team and a terrible role model; to make matters worse, the team's long-time captain was present in the room while all of this unfolded. Linden and Keenan clashed; Messier was on Keenan's side. That was not a very pleasant dressing room.

One wouldn't think of Messier as a good leader during his time in Vancouver; he was a tyrant.
Works Cited

Gallagher, Tony. "I Blame Messier: With the Canucks Captain in His Sights, Gino Odjick Hits His Mark." The Province: 0. Apr 02 1998. ProQuest. Web. 18 Oct. 2014 .

Mason, Gary. "Messier: Did the Canucks Miss the Mark?: It has Not been a Vintage Season for the Canucks and their Newest Captain." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Apr 17 1998. ProQuest. Web. 18 Oct. 2014 .

Mason, Gary. "Messier Calls for Team Unity: Canucks' Captain Angry with Loose- Lipped Teammates Airing Beefs through the Media, Calling it `completely Unacceptable.'." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Jan 10 1998. ProQuest. Web. 18 Oct. 2014 .
 
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JA

Guest
Also, in reference to some of his complaints:
Sore elbow behind Messier's frustrating season Vancouver Canucks' fans boo team captain who is averaging less than a point a game
Kerr, Grant. The Globe and Mail [Toronto, Ont] 26 Mar 1998: S.3.

VANCOUVER -- Mark Messier has been fumbling with the puck for several weeks because of a sore arm. Now the proud captain of the Vancouver Canucks must fight back the disappointment of being jeered by fickle fans at GM Place.

Messier heard the boo birds this week and admitted he's having a hard time playing up to even his own standards, let alone the expectations of fans after signing a three-year, $20-million (U.S.) contract.

Vancouver fans shocked long-time observers Tuesday when they suddenly turned on Messier, 37, and booed him in the second period after the centre took the puck away from unsuspecting teammate Brian Noonan in the offensive zone against the New York Islanders. The play was innocent enough and the two players seemed to joke about it later on the bench.

But fans were in no mood for frivolity as they've come to expect much more from the veteran of 19 seasons in the National Hockey League.

...

"It's been a frustrating month for myself, playing with my [sore] elbow," Messier said later. "I don't have any qualms about [the booing]. I expect a lot of myself and it's been a tough month.

"There's been no time to sit out and rest. When you play injured and you're not 100 per cent, you open yourself to some criticism and that's part of the game. You have to be big enough and strong enough to stand up to the criticism that comes your way when you're not playing up to your ability."

...

Messier had problems controlling the puck against the Islanders, once forcing an offside when the disc seemed to almost stick to the ice. Messier agreed with the observation that ice conditions in Vancouver have been terrible all season.

"We have the worst ice in the league," Messier said. "We've got guys that would excel on great ice. I don't think there's any excuse for it and it has to be addressed."

...
Works Cited

Kerr, Grant. "Sore Elbow Behind Messier's Frustrating Season Vancouver Canucks' Fans Boo Team Captain Who is Averaging Less than a Point a Game." The Globe and Mail: 0. Mar 26 1998. ProQuest. Web. 18 Oct. 2014 .
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
20,102
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Tokyo, Japan
I was well-aware of the Messier/Canucks problems from back in the day (though I certainly wasn't following the Canucks at the time), but reading these repeated threads about Messier-in-Vancouver has really enlightened me to the fact that...

Canucks' fans are deluded about this.

I mean, really people. Messier wore #11, and it's his fault nobody on the Canucks told him about a previous player (who, by the way, pales by comparison in importance to Messier). Linden decides Messier should be the captain, and that's Messier's fault. Quinn and whoever hired Mike Keenan, and that's Messier's fault. Messier is pushing 40 by the time he departs, the team is on the upswing (many of whose future leaders attribute some of their success to Messier), and yet the team's failures are Messier's fault (of course, the team had been declining for three years before he arrived and already missed the playoffs). But never let the facts get in the way of some Messier-hatred.

This line of thinking is equivalent to if, in 2008, Nicklas Lidstrom had signed for big money with the Edmonton Oilers. Then, in 2009, 2010, and 2011, the Oilers missed the playoffs (but Taylor Hall, etc. were getting better by 2011, as was the team). Lidstrom then retires or signs elsewhere.

Would Oilers' fans (bruised as they currently are) blame this all on Lidstrom? Would we be pissing at Lidstrom 15 years later for wearing Al Hamilton's number? No, we'd be blaming it on the idiots responsible for bringing a nearly past-it high priced player to suck-up salary space on a team that doesn't need that kind of player. Meanwhile, we'd grudgingly enjoy watching Lidstrom play and give him the respect he deserves when he left after a very difficult three years.
 

JA

Guest
I was well-aware of the Messier/Canucks problems from back in the day (though I certainly wasn't following the Canucks at the time), but reading these repeated threads about Messier-in-Vancouver has really enlightened me to the fact that...

Canucks' fans are deluded about this.

I mean, really people. Messier wore #11, and it's his fault nobody on the Canucks told him about a previous player (who, by the way, pales by comparison in importance to Messier). Linden decides Messier should be the captain, and that's Messier's fault. Quinn and whoever hired Mike Keenan, and that's Messier's fault. Messier is pushing 40 by the time he departs, the team is on the upswing (many of whose future leaders attribute some of their success to Messier), and yet the team's failures are Messier's fault (of course, the team had been declining for three years before he arrived and already missed the playoffs). But never let the facts get in the way of some Messier-hatred.

This line of thinking is equivalent to if, in 2008, Nicklas Lidstrom had signed for big money with the Edmonton Oilers. Then, in 2009, 2010, and 2011, the Oilers missed the playoffs (but Taylor Hall, etc. were getting better by 2011, as was the team). Lidstrom then retires or signs elsewhere.

Would Oilers' fans (bruised as they currently are) blame this all on Lidstrom? Would we be pissing at Lidstrom 15 years later for wearing Al Hamilton's number? No, we'd be blaming it on the idiots responsible for bringing a nearly past-it high priced player to suck-up salary space on a team that doesn't need that kind of player. Meanwhile, we'd grudgingly enjoy watching Lidstrom play and give him the respect he deserves when he left after a very difficult three years.

I implore you to read the articles above. He painted himself as a savior, was the laziest player on the team, and yet seemed to pull many of the strings. He made excuses for himself while he criticized others; he allowed Keenan to take advantage of players.

Here are just a few of his own quotations from one of the Mason articles above:
"Ninety per cent of the players don't want to do it because it's so hard and maybe they don't see themselves in the role that they're playing or maybe they don't see themselves being played in the right situations or themselves being successful individually. Maybe they're under contract, maybe they're playing out their option. There's a million reasons why they don't."

...

"Everybody wants a player who's played on a championship team at some point."

...

"If anything, it's masqueraded some of the real problems here that are hampering the team. I think you have to take money out of the equation. This team needs to be completely restructured. Talent is only one element of many elements that it takes to be a competitive team, let alone a championship team."

...

"In my mind there's definitely a formula to winning. And I know, from all the championship teams I've played on, it's always the same kinds of things that were in place. The characters might have been different but the foundations of those teams were always the same... I'd like to help them explore themselves. To show them what it's like to be on a championship team and to feel how good and what a great feeling it is to completely commit yourself and be completely selfless and do whatever it takes to win instead of worrying about the end result."

...

"I can't teach my students; I can only help them explore themselves," Messier says, quoting a well-known Buddhist verse.

...

He says McCaw's a friend who invited him to attend the game.

"I don't think there's anything wrong with that because there was nothing more than that. That's the way I want it and that's the way it should be."
There's no doubt his attitude and approach as the Canucks' captain cast a huge shadow on the team. He portrayed himself as the savior while he watched the team burn. He allowed the team to implode, stepping aside while Keenan clashed with many key leaders on the roster. Meanwhile, the two seemed to decide together which players would stay and which would go; as the team's captain but also its laziest player, to be the de facto co-GM as well was far too much. It was a gong show.
 
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JA

Guest
By the way, here's what he said at the start of the following season:
Mess, Mike keeping faith: [Final Edition]
Gallagher, Tony. The Province [Vancouver, B.C] 17 Sep 1998: A60.

...

"I came into this with my eyes open," said Messier, fairly convincingly. "I knew from the players around the league last year this was going to be tough and a lot of changes to the structure and organization had to be made. I knew the players weren't here. And I didn't want an accelerated or rushed plan in because of my age. I know it doesn't work like that.

"I have no trouble with being in a position similar to Slava Fetisov. He won Cups the past two seasons at ages 39 and 40 while playing a lesser role and that's the situation I may be in when we win here. It might be sooner if a lot of these young guys can play. But I don't have to be in the prominent role to win again. I know I probably won't, I'll have to contribute in other ways and my role will change. I have no problem with that."

...
Works Cited

Gallagher, Tony. "Mess, Mike Keeping Faith." The Province: 0. Sep 17 1998. ProQuest. Web. 18 Oct. 2014 .
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
20,102
17,117
Tokyo, Japan
Well, what problem do you have with anything Messier was quoted (lacking all context, I might add) as saying? Because I have no problem with anything he's quoted as saying there. All seems sound and correct to me.

The rest of your accusations ("he seemed to be taking over", "he was the defacto GM") is all groundless speculation with no basis in fact or evidence.

Frankly, I tend to trust Markus Naslund more than you or Gino Odjick.
 

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