Why Mark Messier is Often Regarded the Worst/Most Hated Vancouver Canuck of All Time.

[JA]

When Messier signed in Vancouver at the press conference he was asked about the captaincy and he publicly endorsed Linden saying their was no reason to change the captain.

Years later Linden admitted he felt had no choice but to give up the captaincy because if the team failed he was going to get second guessed.

Last year Messier admitted the one thing he would of done differently in Vancouver is he would not of accepted the C from Linden.

Linden has never thrown anybody under the bus. If Messier did ask, Linden would never disclose that information publicly. When Messier signed, Linden made it clear the former didn't need a C or an A to be a leader on the team. People would recognize him as a leader on the team. They had their roles set already, and Messier was simply to be another leader -- an addition to the room.

Someone must have talked him out of it. In fact, it seems a lot of people talked him out of it. The chatter about Messier becoming the captain was becoming a distraction by the time the season arrived. Linden said in October 1997 that he and Messier had talked a few times between July and then.

Linden says Messier will contribute leadership without wearing the `C': [FINAL Edition]
Pap, Elliott. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 29 July 1997: E.2.

...

So you can imagine Linden's surprise when he received a call late Sunday night from general manager Pat Quinn telling him he would have company in the leadership department -- none other than Mark Messier, one of the greatest leaders in the history of team sports.

``It came as such a surprise to me,'' Linden said Monday at the news conference to announce Messier's signing. ``When word was going around that we might get him, people were coming up to me at Whistler over the weekend and asking me what I thought. I said `not a chance.'

``One guy doesn't make everything right but it sure makes a heck of a big difference. It will be nice to have someone there to help out.''

Linden, 27 and heading into his seventh season as team captain, said he has always encouraged Quinn to add veterans of integrity like Ryan Walter and Tim Hunter. But he never expected someone the calibre of Messier, who will become the No. 1 centre and allow Linden to fulfil his true calling on the second line.

``It will be nice not to have to play against him anymore,'' Linden smiled, no doubt recalling the 1994 Stanley Cup final when Linden went head-to-head with Messier for seven thrilling games. ``Mark is one of the greatest centres to ever play the game and he plays every area of the ice extremely well.''

Linden said the issue of the captaincy was never raised and that Messier would not require a `C' or an `A' to assume a vital leadership role.

``I think Mark will be a leader no matter what letter he has on his shoulder,'' Linden said. ``He will add to our leadership and he'll lead like he always has. You can never have enough leadership. It is great to have him on our side.''

Asked if he felt other key teammates would be traded to make room for Messier's $6 million US a year salary, Linden replied: ``When you have a chance to sign someone like that, you do it and then worry about the rest later. We've added a player of his calibre to our team without losing anyone off our roster. It's just the opposite of when someone is injured and he's just not there.

``And having Mark come back to Canada and to Vancouver, I think it reinforces to everyone that free agent signings are possible for a Canadian team.''

Things changed in September.

There is only one choice for captain - Linden: [FINAL Edition]
Mason, Gary. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 10 Sep 1997: F.1.

WHISTLER -- You didn't expect Trevor Linden to handle it any other way. The uncomfortable questions. Day after day.

The ones dogging him since Mark Messier arrived in town and Linden and the rest of his teammates took their places in his shadow. And people began wondering, out loud, how Linden could presume to be captain with someone of Messier's stature in the dressing room. There have also been the well-meaning suggestions. Unburdened of the `C', Linden would feel free. Finally. Could concentrate solely on hockey and not have to be the one responsible for plugging holes every time the team raft sprang a leak. Not have to be the spokesman when dissension made headlines.

Orca Bay's newspaper campaign hasn't helped either. ``It's about commitment,'' the ads say, accompanied by Messier's menacing visage. Now, no one's disputing Mark Messier knows a thing or two about commitment. But Linden used to be the poster boy for Canuck commitment. Not any more. The television campaign's the same. There is Linden, in the dressing room, full game face on. Actually looking a tad worried. Probably thinking of last year's team. And then Messier's formidable presence fills the screen. The white knight has arrived. Hallelujah. Someone to lead them to the promised land.

Maybe that interpretation seems a little harsh. But I've heard it from many people. People who feel maybe it's just a little unfair to Linden. All of which has had me wondering how No. 16 is handling all this. Whether he's just a little hurt by suggestions he should rip the `C' from his jersey, genuflect in front of the new king, and hand over the title. Linden has indeed handled this little controversy with all the class we've come to expect from him. Answering every question. Never betraying that maybe he's getting just a little tired of it all.

...

Linden said he has no plans to give up the captaincy, hasn't even really contemplated it. Which is a little hard to believe. He said he and Messier would soon sit down to iron out how they would work as a team. But then he said this.

``Mark is going to add so much to our team, going to add to our leadership. That's a fact. Now, whether he has any letter of the alphabet on his jersey doesn't change the way he's going to play or perform or do what he does. And the same can go for myself. You are the type of person and player you are. By putting a cosmetic letter on your jersey doesn't change the way you are.'' Now you can interpret those comments any way you want but they sound to me like someone who hasn't completely decided in his own mind what he's going to do... If anything, Linden is cut from the same jersey as Steve Yzerman.

...

A captain who doesn't have a mean side, just a big heart... For him to hand it over after nine long years seems a little unfair to me.

...

Works Cited

Mason, Gary. "There is Only One Choice for Captain - Linden." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Sep 10 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

Pap, Elliott. "Linden Says Messier Will Contribute Leadership without Wearing the `C'." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Jul 29 1997. ProQuest. Web. 19 Oct. 2014 .

 

[JA]

With regards to Wayne Maki's #11, Mark could have worn something else in Vancouver. He must have thought it was too important for him to wear #11 to instead switch to something else. To switch numbers would have been the admirable thing to do.

Maki jersey status unresolved: [Final Edition]
Pap, Elliott. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 17 Oct 1997: C1 FRONT.

The widow of Wayne Maki, the Vancouver Canuck winger who died of brain cancer 23 years ago, is still upset that the Canucks refuse to acknowledge her husband's No. 11 jersey was retired following his death.

The number is currently being worn by new Vancouver captain Mark Messier. Canuck management contends the number was never officially retired, but merely taken out of circulation, before being issued to Messier on July 28.

...

In her most recent conversation with Quinn one week ago, Beverly Maki said she was told the Canucks "wouldn't do anything because the number was never retired."

Among the documentation Majic sent Quinn was a Vancouver Sun article that appeared on May 18, 1974, six days following Maki's death, in which the Canucks reportedly "announced they will retire the late Wayne Maki's sweater from the National Hockey League . . . . the Canucks will make a presentation of the sweater to the Maki family."

Majic's correspondence also included a picture from the B.C. Sports Hall of Fame showing a display of Maki's sweater with the inscription: "This jersey was worn by Wayne Maki, #11, during the season of 1972-73. The number is now retired."

As well, one-time Canuck captain Chris Oddleifson briefly wore No. 11 following his February 1974 trade to the Canucks from Boston. Maki died that spring and the next season, Oddleifson was issued No. 14.

"When I came over in the [Bob] Schmautz trade, I wore No. 11 for the remainder of the season but when I came to training camp in the fall, I was told the No. 11 was retired because of Wayne's death," Oddleison said Thursday. "The Canuck argument is that jerseys are retired because of service. Mrs. Maki is not looking for an ounce of money. She's appealing to the Canucks on a humanitarian stance, not a legal one. She is offering a win-win situation."

Messier, told Thursday of the family's emotional reaction to the issue, said he would be more than happy to meet the Makis.

"Yes, I'm aware No. 11 was worn by Mr. Maki and I have offered to do numerous things," Messier said. "I've had numerous talks with Pat and he assured me not to worry about it, he was taking care of it. We even talked about doing some kind of ceremony."

...

Canucks look rich and confused: [Final Edition]
By Damien Cox Toronto Star. Toronto Star [Toronto, Ont] 28 Aug 1997: D.9.

...

The splash of the Messier signing was muffled somewhat by the callous manner in which the club gave No. 11 to the former Ranger captain, a jersey number that had been unofficially retired by the club for almost a quarter-century in honor of former Canuck Wayne Maki.

Maki died of cancer in 1974, and his family wasn't asked for permission to put his number back in circulation.

``They said they tried to get a hold of us, but obviously they didn't try very hard to get our blessing, which they don't have,'' said Maki's son, Wayne Jr.

...

As soon as Mark found out, he could have switched numbers. Part of the blame is on him for not taking initiative, instead relying on Pat Quinn to feud with the Makis in order for him to have his #11.

Eventually, they seemed to reach an agreement and the Makis allowed Messier to wear the number -- but after a struggle with the organization.

Canucks offer plaque to Makis: [Final Edition]
Pap, Elliott. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 18 Oct 1997: G2.

Vancouver Canuck vice-president Steve Tambellini said Friday the club has offered to mount a plaque at GM Place to honor the memory of Wayne Maki, the winger who wore No. 11 and died of cancer in 1974.

Tambellini was responding to Friday's Vancouver Sun story in which Beverly Maki, the widow of Wayne Maki, expressed disappointment at the Canucks' refusal to acknowledge that No. 11 was retired following her husband's death.

No. 11 was re-issued to new Canuck captain Mark Messier this season after 23 years out of circulation. Beverly Maki was not contacted before the Messier signing July 28 and was shocked to discover her husband's number had been re-issued watching the news conference on television. She doesn't object to Messier wearing No. 11 but would like the number retired again following Messier's career.

"The No. 11 hadn't been worn until Mark came out of respect for Wayne and the Maki family but it was never officially retired," said Tambellini. "Stan Smyl's number [12] is the only officially retired number on the Canucks. Pat Quinn has spoken to Mrs. Maki and the family a few times and we want to honor Wayne's memory.

"We've offered to put up a plaque at General Motors Place that would be here for all-time. We've also told Mrs. Maki that it would be important for her and the family to meet Mark. We are trying to arrange something as soon as we can.

"Wayne and the Maki family are part of the Canuck family and always will be," Tambellini continued. "They will always have the respect of the alumni and our organization."

The NHL's Official Guide and Record Book recognizes Smyl's No. 12 as the only retired Canuck number despite the fact the Makis were told the number was retired. According to newspaper clippings, the club announced the retirement of No. 11 on Friday, May 17, 1974, five days after Maki's death.

Asked if the club would consider the family's request to "re- retire" No. 11 when Messier leaves the game, Tambellini replied: "We are going to continue discussions with the Maki family."

Beverly Maki declined further comment Friday.

Messier should have just worn something else. If (hypothetically, on a different team) someone was already wearing #11, would Mark have asked that player to surrender his number to him? I think it takes leadership not to take that number away from someone.

Works Cited

"Canucks Look Rich and Confused." Toronto Star: 0. Aug 28 1997. ProQuest. Web. 20 Oct. 2014 .

Pap, Elliott. "Canucks Offer Plaque to Makis." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Oct 18 1997. ProQuest. Web. 20 Oct. 2014 .

Pap, Elliott. "Maki Jersey Status Unresolved." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Oct 17 1997. ProQuest. Web. 20 Oct. 2014 .

 

[The Panther]

Probably the most inane and one-sided comment in those (endless) articles quoted by JetsAlternate is this:

"Instead, surrendering the official leadership role now just confirms what a leader Linden truly is."

Er... no. Surrendering the official leadership role confirms what a pansy Linden was. If they wanted the media-speculation to die down, Linden should have gone to the press during the pre-season, waited for everyone to gather round, and then said: "I am the captain of the team and will remain so. There is no reason for this to change. Mark is invited to wear the 'A' and it is his decision if he wants to; we hope he will. But the captain of the team is me, and that will not change."

That would have done it.


Also, blaming Messier for the Maki thing is silliness. As the newspaper article clearly shows, Canucks' management told Messier to wear #11. Who is more to blame -- the management of the team of a deceased player, or a guy they just signed as a free agent? Also, the number wasn't retired.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

With regards to Wayne Maki's #11, Mark could have worn something else in Vancouver. He must have thought it was too important for him to wear #11 to instead switch to something else. To switch numbers would have been the admirable thing to do.


As soon as Mark found out, he could have switched numbers. Part of the blame is on him for not taking initiative, instead relying on Pat Quinn to feud with the Makis in order for him to have his #11.

Eventually, they seemed to reach an agreement and the Makis allowed Messier to wear the number -- but after a struggle with the organization.

Messier should have just worn something else. If (hypothetically, on a different eam) someone was already wearing #11, would Mark have asked that player to surrender his number to him?

It was in Messier's contract that the number was available The Maki's did agree to give their blessing to Messier wearing the number but asked that the Canucks make it official and retire the number after Messier stopped wearing it, that still hasn't been done.The onus was completely on the Canucks from the start to make things right with the Maki family something they still haven't done.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

Linden has never thrown anybody under the bus. If Messier did ask, Linden would never disclose that information publicly. When Messier signed, Linden made it clear the former didn't need a C or an A to be a leader on the team. People would recognize him as a leader on the team. They had their roles set already, and Messier was simply to be another leader -- an addition to the room.

Someone must have talked him out of it. In fact, it seems a lot of people talked him out of it. The chatter about Messier becoming the captain was becoming a distraction by the time the season arrived. Linden said in October 1997 that he and Messier had talked a few times between July and then.

Things changed in September.

Why are you suggesting the Evil Messier talked the Noble Linden into giving him the captaincy, when no one has ever said that? Linden said what happened, he knew if the team failed he would get second guessed so he didn't feel he had a choice but to give it to Messier. Yes, that doesn't seem like the bravest act by Linden but contrary to Vancouver belief Messier isn't the only person in Vancouver at the time who had flaws, made mistakes, and deserves some of the blame for the teams failure during that time period.

 

[Terry Yake]

to me, messier wearing #11 after it had been retired in maki's memory is what would put the bad taste in my mouth

those teams would have struggled with or without a past his prime messier anyways

 

[The Panther]

to me, messier wearing #11 after it had been retired

It was never officially retired.

Messier left Vancouver 16 years ago, and they still haven't officially retired it.

 

[JA]

It was never officially retired.

Messier left Vancouver 16 years ago, and they still haven't officially retired it.

The Maki family reported in the other article that a news publication in the Vancouver Sun existed announcing the retirement of Wayne's #11. I've found a reprint of it from the May 20, 1974 edition of The Globe and Mail:

Cougars fall in four games: Aeros fly straight to WHA's first championship
The Globe and Mail (1936-Current) [Toronto, Ont] 20 May 1974: S3.

...

Remember Maki

VANCOUVER (CP) -- Vancouver Canucks have retired the late Wayne Maki's sweater number.

Maki, who wore No. 11 during his two full seasons with the National Hockey League team, died May 12 of a brain tumor.

The Canucks say they will make a presentation of the sweater to the Maki family.

The blurb is featured on the bottom-right hand corner of a page featuring "Cougars fall in four games: Aeros fly straight to WHA's first championship" as its main story.

Mike Beamish recounts this in an October 6, 1989 article published in the Vancouver Sun:

There's nothing like an original: The 1970 Canucks: where they are now; The canuck class of 1970-71 (4*): [3* Edition]
Beamish, Mike. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 06 Oct 1989: E3.

...

Wayne Maki, LW - Maki endured hell whenever the Canucks played the Boston Bruins, who were intent on avenging a sickening and much publicized stick-swinging incident involving the Bruins' Ted Green in 1969. Three years later, after complaining of excruciating headaches, Maki was placed in hospital and a tumor was detected in his brain. He died on May 12, 1974, at age 29. A few days later the Canucks retired his number 11. Maki is the only Canuck player to have been so honored.

...

The Canucks haven't made that same mistake of letting anyone wear it since the Messier debacle. Nobody's ever going to be wearing #11 on that team.

Works Cited

Beamish, Mike. "There's Nothing Like an Original: The 1970 Canucks: Where they are Now; the Canuck Class of 1970-71 (4*)." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Oct 06 1989. ProQuest. Web. 20 Oct. 2014 .

"Cougars Fall in Four Games." The Globe and Mail (1936-Current): 1. May 20 1974. ProQuest. Web. 20 Oct. 2014 .

 

[The Panther]

They retired it or they didn't retire it.

Either way, what does it have to do with Messier? Nothing. Canucks' management are 100% to blame for an active player wearing a retired number. Oh yeah, and Linden could have said something, but didn't.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Also, blaming Messier for the Maki thing is silliness. As the newspaper article clearly shows, Canucks' management told Messier to wear #11. Who is more to blame -- the management of the team of a deceased player, or a guy they just signed as a free agent? Also, the number wasn't retired.

There is absolutely no possible way that Mark Messier said "I want to wear #11" and nobody even at least mentioned, "oh well that number is kind of unofficially retired in our system".

That would be like someone walking into Detroit and saying, "I'd like #16," and nobody saying, "hahahaha no".

 

[blogofmike]

There is absolutely no possible way that Mark Messier said "I want to wear #11" and nobody even at least mentioned, "oh well that number is kind of unofficially retired in our system".

That would be like someone walking into Detroit and saying, "I'd like #16," and nobody saying, "hahahaha no".

I don't see why that's not plausible for the late 90's Canucks. They were a train wreck, as Courtnall and Tikkanen said in public when traded to NYR in 1997. Perhaps Messier should have checked with them on why things were so acrimonious and avoided Vancouver.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Trevor did not want the captaincy issue to become a distraction. After Messier's signing, the media pestered him about it on a constant basis. By the start of the season, it was beginning to become a distraction because some wanted the shiny, new member of the team to be the captain. The players didn't anticipate it. Apparently, Messier and Linden had talked about it on numerous occasions. Mark never refused.

Don't you think people were maybe pestering him because the Canucks went on a 6-16-2 run when Linden returned from injury in 1997 to fall out of their playoff position?

Linden started the year well before stumbling after the first seven games of the season. He had 3 goals, 8 points in those 7 games.

Messier had just 2 goals, 0 assists in those seven games. For whatever reason, Trevor slowed down afterward. After 23 games, he had 5 goals, 9 assists, 14 points. Then on November 20, 1997, he suffered a groin injury. He was out for 8 games. In January, he suffered a knee injury. For much of the second half of his campaign, Trevor was hurt. In spite of this, though, Keenan called him out:

So you're going to celebrate Linden's good 7 games and write-off the other 35 games as being worse "for whatever reason" while condemning Messier for his poor start and completely ignoring the 51 GP stretch of games that followed in which he recorded 49 points?

With regards to Wayne Maki's #11, Mark could have worn something else in Vancouver. He must have thought it was too important for him to wear #11 to instead switch to something else. To switch numbers would have been the admirable thing to do.

With all of those pages of quotes about the Maki family, you would think you would at some point give us the only sentence that mattered about the whole situation:

"We've offered to let Mark wear it for the three years he plays here and then we want them to retire the number again." - Beverly Maki

The frustration from the family was that Quinn said that they wouldn't do anything because the number wasn't really retired.

If (hypothetically, on a different team) someone was already wearing #11, would Mark have asked that player to surrender his number to him? I think it takes leadership not to take that number away from someone.

When you're creating hypothetical situations to allow yourself to call-out a player for his arrogance, ask yourself if you're just looking for reasons to hate that player. And yes, Mark Messier did come to a team in which a player was already wearing #11, and yes, Adam Graves gave up the number.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

There is absolutely no possible way that Mark Messier said "I want to wear #11" and nobody even at least mentioned, "oh well that number is kind of unofficially retired in our system".

That would be like someone walking into Detroit and saying, "I'd like #16," and nobody saying, "hahahaha no".

As was mentioned already, it was in Messier's contract that he'd wear 11. The most plausible scenario (if we can all take off our tinfoil hats for a second), is that in their rush to sign the biggest free agent of the summer, the Canucks agreed to that clause without really looking into it and, as has also been shown, then proceeded to bungle their relationship with the Makis after the fact.

I hardly think its incumbent on the player to research 30 years of team history to make sure a numbers available before asking, 'hey, is this number available?' to the people who are in the best position to know.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

Why are you suggesting the Evil Messier talked the Noble Linden into giving him the captaincy, when no one has ever said that? Linden said what happened, he knew if the team failed he would get second guessed so he didn't feel he had a choice but to give it to Messier. Yes, that doesn't seem like the bravest act by Linden but contrary to Vancouver belief Messier isn't the only person in Vancouver at the time who had flaws, made mistakes, and deserves some of the blame for the teams failure during that time period.

Clearly the rules of this thread are, 'if we don't know what actually happened, automatically assume that Linden was a Saint and Messier was Satan'.

I've taken part in this debate about a 100 times and I have yet to see anything concrete to back up all these accusations.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

The team needed to retool in 1997. Many of the core players were still young. A few solid pieces, particularly a reliable goaltender, would have helped them reach the playoffs again. If anything, trading Bure and Mogilny might have helped them rebuild if they ever needed to restructure their roster. The team had heart (for the most part) under Trevor Linden's leadership the previous season. They did not need Messier.

The declining record of the Canucks prior to Messier's arrival has been pointed out several times and ignored.

It also seems contemporary sources don't exactly share your optimistic view of the 95-to-97 Canucks:

In the summer of 1995, hockey fans were excited about the soon-to-be-completed new General Motors Place; then, Pat Quinn reinforced his desire to build the strongest possible team when he acquired nifty Russian star Alex Mogilny for a bunch of unproven young prospects. Once holdout captain Trevor Linden was signed, that was supposed to be the year the Canucks took their offense to the next level. Instead, while Mogilny met expectations, Pavel Bure blew out his knee 13 games into the season and rumors of strife and conflict swirled around players and coaching staff alike. After months of speculation, Pat Quinn fired his taciturn coach, Rick Ley, and stepped behind the bench himself. Nevertheless, even the master was unable to overcome questionable netminding from both his goaltenders as the Canucks fell in the first round of the playoffs to the eventual champions, the Colorado Avalanche.

So, in the summer of 1996, Quinn addressed the dissension in the dressing room by hiring a young, articulate "players’ coach", Tom Renney. Changing the mood was supposed to fix the vibe in the Vancouver dressing room and once again, come training camp, fans were cautiously optimistic about the fresh start. Once again, it didn’t take long for the vision to unravel. Injuries were a big factor, and no Renney speeches or slogans could cover up for a porous defense and shaky goaltending. A few big-margin losses quickly drained away all the promised team-spirit, so in-fighting and finger-pointing became the team traditions in a year where the Canucks failed to make the playoffs for the first time this decade.

http://www.lcshockey.com/issues/78/messier.asp

By the standards that Messier is being held to in this thread, I will assume all the Canucks fans will now be ripping Linden for his lack of leadership?

 

[Captain Bowie]

Hey look, fans of other teams telling Canucks fans how to feel, or that their feelings are not valid. How nice.

The captaincy, #11, these are really secondary things. Bottom line, He. Did. Not. Care.

Part of the frustration should have been pointed at the Canucks management for bringing in a player already widely hated by Canucks fans. He and Gretzky spent 10 years embarrassing the Canucks in the 80's. Then the closest the organization had ever come to a Stanley Cup, and the dirty SOB was the one standing in the way. And then, the team goes out and signs the guy to big money and he essentially allowed to do what he wants.

It is 100% logical? No. It is largely emotional. So to sit there and tell us that we are wrong to hate Mark Messier, or delusional, or stupid or whatever, is pretty stupid in itself. Also funny that the 2 biggest debaters in this thread appear to be a Rangers and a Oilers fan.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

Hey look, fans of other teams telling Canucks fans how to feel, or that their feelings are not valid. How nice.

The captaincy, #11, these are really secondary things. Bottom line, He. Did. Not. Care.

Part of the frustration should have been pointed at the Canucks management for bringing in a player already widely hated by Canucks fans. He and Gretzky spent 10 years embarrassing the Canucks in the 80's. Then the closest the organization had ever come to a Stanley Cup, and the dirty SOB was the one standing in the way. And then, the team goes out and signs the guy to big money and he essentially allowed to do what he wants.

It is 100% logical? No. It is largely emotional. So to sit there and tell us that we are wrong to hate Mark Messier, or delusional, or stupid or whatever, is pretty stupid in itself. Also funny that the 2 biggest debaters in this thread appear to be a Rangers and a Oilers fan.

I agree no one should be telling anyone how to feel but some of the things that Messier is blamed for in Vancouver are simply not true and their is no reason why anyone should have a problem with the truth especially when their are so many fair and valid criticisms of Messier's time in Vancouver.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

I was well-aware of the Messier/Canucks problems from back in the day (though I certainly wasn't following the Canucks at the time), but reading these repeated threads about Messier-in-Vancouver has really enlightened me to the fact that...

Canucks' fans are deluded about this.

I mean, really people. Messier wore #11, and it's his fault nobody on the Canucks told him about a previous player (who, by the way, pales by comparison in importance to Messier). Linden decides Messier should be the captain, and that's Messier's fault. Quinn and whoever hired Mike Keenan, and that's Messier's fault. Messier is pushing 40 by the time he departs, the team is on the upswing (many of whose future leaders attribute some of their success to Messier), and yet the team's failures are Messier's fault (of course, the team had been declining for three years before he arrived and already missed the playoffs). But never let the facts get in the way of some Messier-hatred.

This line of thinking is equivalent to if, in 2008, Nicklas Lidstrom had signed for big money with the Edmonton Oilers. Then, in 2009, 2010, and 2011, the Oilers missed the playoffs (but Taylor Hall, etc. were getting better by 2011, as was the team). Lidstrom then retires or signs elsewhere.

Would Oilers' fans (bruised as they currently are) blame this all on Lidstrom? Would we be pissing at Lidstrom 15 years later for wearing Al Hamilton's number? No, we'd be blaming it on the idiots responsible for bringing a nearly past-it high priced player to suck-up salary space on a team that doesn't need that kind of player. Meanwhile, we'd grudgingly enjoy watching Lidstrom play and give him the respect he deserves when he left after a very difficult three years.

What non-Canuck fans aren't grasping here isn't that we think Messier sucked... we just think he sucked as a Canuck.

Besides, it's not the equivalent of Lidstrom coming to the Oilers and having the team go to hell. I don't know if there's a comparison. Before coming to Vancouver, Messier wasn't just considered to be "a good player" by Canucks fans, he was considered to be a nemesis. Not only did he spend a decade beating up on us as an Oiler... he then went to NY and was instrumental in helping the Rangers beat us in the SCF. We hated him, but admired him too. When we finally got him, everyone hoped that now we could use his powers for good, but we were sorely disappointed... he just kept on hurting our team. The expectations were so high, and what we got was so disappointing, that we can never forgive him.

Sure the Canucks were already on the way to Sucktown when he arrived, but Messier made it worse. As good as he was everywhere else, he was that bad with the Canucks (and when he returned to the Rangers)... and cruddy Messier is, sadly for him (and the Canucks), a part of his legacy too.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

^ as a coda to this, i'd invite anyone in this thread who hasn't done so to take a peek at the parallel thread on the canucks board right now. beyond anything that happened on the ice, or on the bench, or in the dressing room, or in the owner's box, you'll see canucks fan after canucks fan who lived through those awful years saying: "messier was a jerk," "messier went out of his way not to do anything in the community," "messier showed nothing but disrespect and disdain for this city in his interactions with fans and the media."

maybe we're all hysterically making this up...

 

[Big Phil]

I have no idea why Messier did go to Vancouver, or why they pursued him. I'd be livid if the Leafs went out of their way to sign Daniel Alfredsson. Honestly, he would never go anything right in my eyes in a Leafs uniform. Even if he saved an orphanage from a burning building he would be despised in Toronto. And if he took the captaincy from Clark, Gilmour or even Sundin it would irritate us, even if it was offered. So I get why Canuck fans hate Messier.

That being said, why do people hold it against Messier for the team being poor? I asked this earlier, but when have you ever seen a 36 year old be the reason a team turned around? I can't think of it off the top of my head at all.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I have no idea why Messier did go to Vancouver, or why they pursued him. I'd be livid if the Leafs went out of their way to sign Daniel Alfredsson. Honestly, he would never go anything right in my eyes in a Leafs uniform. Even if he saved an orphanage from a burning building he would be despised in Toronto. And if he took the captaincy from Clark, Gilmour or even Sundin it would irritate us, even if it was offered. So I get why Canuck fans hate Messier.

^ new (absentee) american owner thought it was a good idea.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

Here's an interesting article out of Vancouver particularly about the Canucks dressing room pre-Messier.

On Monday, The Province News Editor Paul Chapman shared an interesting perspective on Twitter:

@RobTheHockeyGuy @john40carter @JayVCB team was riddled with cliques and leaks to media. Guys would talk “off the record†all the time

— Paul Chapman (@PaulChapman_) September 16, 2014



@RobTheHockeyGuy @john40carter @JayVCB Whispers over the phone to fave media to further their agendas. Once Messier was here, that stopped.

— Paul Chapman (@PaulChapman_) September 16, 2014

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2014/09/mark-messier-canuck-scapegoat/

 

[The Panther]

Sure the Canucks were already on the way to Sucktown when he arrived, but Messier made it worse. As good as he was everywhere else, he was that bad with the Canucks

No one here (including the Oilers fan or the Rangers fan) is saying he was good with the Canucks. We know he wasn't. He didn't play well at all, particularly when compared to his previous season (1996-97) with NYR when he was still good. (Then again, by the standards of the average 36- to 39-year-old forward, he was certainly passable.)

Anyway, we all know he wasn't good in Vancouver. We're not arguing with that. What we're saying is -- blame the people who made the real mistakes. Don't invent scenarios with which to hang Messier.

 

[The Panther]

I have no idea why Messier did go to Vancouver, or why they pursued him.

I keep coming back to that, too. I remember seeing the "Messier's a Canuck!" headlines in summer 1997, and I was, like, "What...??" It just seemed a really bad match. I foresaw disaster in the making long before the disaster on the ice.

Basically, any mixing of the 80s' Oilers with the Canucks' franchise is a bad mix. (See also, Tambellini's management in Edmonton.)

 

[Bob b smith]

Management made a mistake when they went to get Messier. Management made a second mistake when they didn't get rid of Messier when things were not working out... He was an over-the-hill oldtimer and because he was an ex-superstar he was a major distraction... Messier wanted to play, probably still thought he looked better than the run down old truck he had become (compare Youtube videos from 1984-85 and the Canuck years...).