Why is Auston Matthews considered a top 10 player?

[Empoleon8771]

Ah I see you have been studying the Buffalo technique of comparing his rookie season to your star player. Great role models.

Why does that matter if we're talking about who the best player right now is? I asked that question in post #371, why does it matter than Matthews was a rookie last year if the discussion is about who is better right now?

Seriously, I genuinely have no idea how someone would try to argue that McDavid is better than Stamkos. I am genuinely shocked someone could actually think that. Stamkos has been doing for like 8 years.

/answer to OP

I am genuinely shocked someone could actually think that. Stamkos has been doing for like 8 years what Matthews' best has been so far.

I like how you didn't include that part. You know, that really damn important part which is my entire argument. McDavid won the Art Ross, Hart and Lindsay last year. If you really think McDavid and Matthews are equal, I truly can't help you.

You don't see the difference there? Matthews is quite simply a much more dominant even strength player than Stamkos and much better defensively. Roughly 80% or more of a game is played at even strength, no one is saying powerplay points don't count but even strength play is clearly more valuable. The point is the extra per game production is not quite as impressive given the cirumstances or necessarily makes Stamkos a more valuable player overall when you take everything into consideration. I would also guess the gap in their points and points per game will decrease as the season goes on.

There's really not a difference here. You can nitpick the exacts of each situation to try and say they're different, but they're not. It is completely hypocritical to try and argue Matthews over Scheifele in that way while also not saying the same for Stamkos over Matthews. I also think it's completely baseless to say that Matthews is "a much more dominant ES player" (their ES points/game over the last 2 years are more or less equal, .69 for Stamkos and .65 for Matthews) and it's also baseless to say that he's "much better defensively". Where are your stats to show that? And no, just citing ES goal totals won't do that.

 

[Gnova]

Matthews isn't a top 10 playee in the league.

I think he will be but he isn't there yet.

 

[Panthaz89]

Seriously, I genuinely have no idea how someone would try to argue that McDavid is better than Stamkos. I am genuinely shocked someone could actually think that. Stamkos has been doing for like 8 years.

/answer to OP

Winning the Hart in your Sophomore season will do that for you...believe it or not leading the whole NHL in points and being the only player to hit triple digits in that season too. All this even-strength only stuff is also funny since McDavid had more even strength points than Matthews had points and also had more assists than Matthews had points yet you compare them as if they are in the same tier. Every time McDavid touches the ice the other team has to react instantly or else his speed will kill them.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

Why does that matter if we're talking about who the best player right now is? I asked that question in post #371, why does it matter than Matthews was a rookie last year if the discussion is about who is better right now?





I like how you didn't include that part. You know, that really damn important part which is my entire argument. McDavid won the Art Ross, Hart and Lindsay last year. If you really think McDavid and Matthews are equal, I truly can't help you.

Matthews is in what, his second year in the NHL? 20 years old or some shit?

McDavid is in what, his third year of the NHL? What's he? Like 21?

"Seriously, I genuinely have no idea how someone would try to argue that Matthews is better than Stamkos. I am genuinely shocked someone could actually think that. Stamkos has been doing for like 8 years ."

STAMKOS HAS BEEN DOING FOR LIKE 8 YEARS.

Am I the only one that gets this? The OP's list and him having McDavid on top amongst all those top ten players of our era, and how dare anyone suggest Matthews might just be among the top players of the league. How dare anyone even suggest the possibility when McDavid can hear that shit.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Matthews is in what, his second year in the NHL? 20 years old or some ****?

McDavid is in what, his third year of the NHL? What's he? Like 21?

"Seriously, I genuinely have no idea how someone would try to argue that Matthews is better than Stamkos. I am genuinely shocked someone could actually think that. Stamkos has been doing for like 8 years ."

STAMKOS HAS BEEN DOING FOR LIKE 8 YEARS.

Am I the only one that gets this? The OP's list and him having McDavid on top amongst all those top ten players of our era, and how dare anyone suggest Matthews might just be among the top players of the league. How dare anyone even suggest the possibility when McDavid can hear that ****.

Are you [mod] to continue to edit out the last part of that quote that completely makes that argument? Or are you going to continue to be insanely disingenuous about what I said? You're trying to change my argument from "Stamkos has been doing what has been better than Matthews best for 8 years" to "Stamkos has been doing what he has been doing for 8 years". It's insanely disingenuous, it's just blatantly putting words in my mouth.

And it's cute that you somehow think Matthews and McDavid are comparable. When Matthews wins an Art Ross, you can compare him to McDavid. Until then, it's a laughable comparison.

 

[BlueBaron]

Why does that matter if we're talking about who the best player right now is? I asked that question in post #371, why does it matter than Matthews was a rookie last year if the discussion is about who is better right now?

You answered your own question, you are using his rookie season to measure Right now. Matthews is producing at a slightly higher rate this season.

Maybe you were trying to show a larger body of work, dunno but they compare well this season. Not sure you can say one is better than the other but it would appear Matthews has a bit more upside.

 

[authentic]

Why does that matter if we're talking about who the best player right now is? I asked that question in post #371, why does it matter than Matthews was a rookie last year if the discussion is about who is better right now?





I like how you didn't include that part. You know, that really damn important part which is my entire argument. McDavid won the Art Ross, Hart and Lindsay last year. If you really think McDavid and Matthews are equal, I truly can't help you.



There's really not a difference here. You can nitpick the exacts of each situation to try and say they're different, but they're not. It is completely hypocritical to try and argue Matthews over Scheifele in that way while also not saying the same for Stamkos over Matthews. I also think it's completely baseless to say that Matthews is "a much more dominant ES player" (their ES points/game over the last 2 years are more or less equal, .69 for Stamkos and .65 for Matthews) and it's also baseless to say that he's "much better defensively". Where are your stats to show that? And no, just citing ES goal totals won't do that.

You are questioning things that are common knowledge, and going back to Matthews rookie season and the sample size is quite small for Stamkos the last two seasons. Stamkos has 24 powerplay points this season and 5 even strength goals, are you seriously denying that Matthews is the clearly more dominant even strength player?

 

[Empoleon8771]

You answered your own question, you are using his rookie season to measure Right now. Matthews is producing at a slightly higher rate this season.

Maybe you were trying to show a larger body of work, dunno but they compare well this season. Not sure you can say one is better than the other but it would appear Matthews has a bit more upside.

Matthews for sure has more upside than someone like Scheifele, I don't think anyone disagrees with that. My comment was more so that people use the argument of "it was Matthews' rookie season" as somehow a counterargument for a discussion about who is better now. I don't know how that makes logical sense, because that comment would be appropriate for a "who will be better in the future?" discussion. That's not a meaningful comment in a thread about who's the best right now.

You are questioning things that are common knowledge, and going back to Matthews rookie season and the sample size is quite small for Stamkos the last two seasons. Stamkos has 24 powerplay points this season and 5 even strength goals, are you seriously denying that Matthews is the clearly more dominant even strength player?

If they are "common knowledge", you should have readily available statistics to support them. And there you go again, clinging to ES goals as if that's the only stat that matters. Ignore those pesky things called assists, they don't matter at all.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

He plays for Toronto and went number 1 in a stacked draft. He simply is not top 10 yet.

 

[authentic]

You answered your own question, you are using his rookie season to measure Right now. Matthews is producing at a slightly higher rate this season.

Maybe you were trying to show a larger body of work, dunno but they compare well this season. Not sure you can say one is better than the other but it would appear Matthews has a bit more upside.

Matthews this season appears to be much improved, and so far his points per game indicate that but definitely still do not tell the whole story. Matthews was better last season anyway. 2nd in goals and 69 points easily beats a measly 20 points in 17 games, but using the past 2 seasons as an argument for comparing players when one of those seasons is a rookie year is stupid compared to a 10 year vet. Matthews is a much better player than last season and I would've taken him over Stamkos last year anyway.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

Are you [mod] to continue to edit out the last part of that quote that completely makes that argument? Or are you going to continue to be insanely disingenuous about what I said?

And it's cute that you somehow think Matthews and McDavid are comparable. When Matthews wins an Art Ross, you can compare him to McDavid. Until then, it's a laughable comparison.

I actually genuinely don't even know what you, or most of this thread, is on about.

You will discredit Matthews no matter what I say.

I will not discredit any player.

But, OP has a problem with Matthews being called a top player in the league while putting McDavid in that group even though McDavid is only in his third season, Matthews in his second. McDavids team is in the sewer and people are outraged that they can't laugh at the Leafs and they can't wrap their heads around it.

And here I am just laughing that people are this wound up about players and the awards they win and all I want is to make the playoffs and win the cup someday, I'll love it no matter how it happens. I'd trade the whole team for the Vegas Knights if I was guaranteed it'd pay off but with that Leafs jersey.

Hey why didn't McDavid win the Calder? Were injuries considered there because if he didn't miss a big chunk of the season surely he would have had more impressive stats that year?

 

[authentic]

Matthews for sure has more upside than someone like Scheifele, I don't think anyone disagrees with that. My comment was more so that people use the argument of "it was Matthews' rookie season" as somehow a counterargument for a discussion about who is better now. I don't know how that makes logical sense, because that comment would be appropriate for a "who will be better in the future?" discussion. That's not a meaningful comment in a thread about who's the best right now.



If they are "common knowledge", you should have readily available statistics to support them. And there you go again, clinging to ES goals as if that's the only stat that matters. Ignore those pesky things called assists, they don't matter at all.

Their even strength point production this season? All the defensive praise Matthews gets and it's known that Stamkos is average at best defensively 10 years into his career? Lol.

 

[BlueBaron]

Matthews for sure has more upside than someone like Scheifele, I don't think anyone disagrees with that. My comment was more so that people use the argument of "it was Matthews' rookie season" as somehow a counterargument for a discussion about who is better now. I don't know how that makes logical sense, because that comment would be appropriate for a "who will be better in the future?" discussion. That's not a meaningful comment in a thread about who's the best right now.



If they are "common knowledge", you should have readily available statistics to support them. And there you go again, clinging to ES goals as if that's the only stat that matters. Ignore those pesky things called assists, they don't matter at all.

It wasn't that complicated. Using last year paints Scheifele as the higher producer when this season Matthews is producing at a slightly higher rate. The upside comment was just an aside.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Their even strength point production this season? All the defensive praise Matthews gets and it's known that Stamkos is average at best defensively 10 years into his career? Lol.

So you don't have actually readily available stats to support that? Just so we're clear. If they're so easily available, you should have them.

But, OP has a problem with Matthews being called a top player in the league while putting McDavid in that group even though McDavid is only in his third season, Matthews in his second. McDavids team is in the sewer and people are outraged that they can't laugh at the Leafs and they can't wrap their heads around it.

And here I am just laughing that people are this wound up about players and the awards they win and all I want is to make the playoffs and win the cup someday, I'll love it no matter how it happens. I'd trade the whole team for the Vegas Knights if I was guaranteed it'd pay off but with that Leafs jersey.

Hey why didn't McDavid win the Calder? Were injuries considered there because if he didn't miss a big chunk of the season surely he would have had more impressive stats that year?

What are you even arguing at this point? McDavid won the Art Ross, Hart and Lindsay last year. Trying to compare Matthews to him is absolutely nonsensical. When Matthews gets those kind of individual awards, he'll be included on par with guys like McDavid. Until then, he's not and it's a dumb comparison to make. Matthews isn't not included in that top group because he's only a 2nd year player, he's not included in that top group because he has done nothing to justify being in that top group plus he's only a 2nd year player.

 

[besser]

He plays for Toronto and went number 1 in a stacked draft. He simply is not top 10 yet.

LOL nice try buddy, I see what u did there

 

[authentic]

Matthews has 15 goals and 25 points at even strength in 30 games. Stamkos has 5 goals and 25 points at even strength in 38 games. Matthews is a much better defensive player, wins more puck battles, is a stronger backchecker, forechecker, better in the defensive zone, stronger on the puck, etc., figure it out.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

So you don't have actually readily available stats to support that? Just so we're clear. If they're so easily available, you should have them.



What are you even arguing at this point? McDavid won the Art Ross, Hart and Lindsay last year. Trying to compare Matthews to him is absolutely nonsensical. When Matthews gets those kind of individual awards, he'll be included on par with guys like McDavid. Until then, he's not and it's a dumb comparison to make. Matthews isn't not included in that top group because he's only a 2nd year player, he's not included in that top group because he has done nothing to justify being in that top group plus he's only a 2nd year player.

The OP seemed upset that anyone would dare to talk about Auston Matthews like he's one of the best players in the league.

it seems everyone's problem with talking highly about Matthews is that he's so new everyone is just getting hyped on a small sample. Only had a great rookie year (which was last season)

Like that was a fluke.....He got lucky there's no way anyone can believe that's his starting point, I mean he plays for the Leafs!

Now McDavid on the other hand. That guy is in his 3rd year!!!!! Now that's the real deal right there!

He is totally better than Stamkos and his 8 years of proof!

 

[authentic]

There are literally two things Stamkos does better than Matthews, and 3 if you include playing next to Kucherov as one of them. He has a much better one timer, and he skates faster in a straight line. That is it.

This season also seems to be an aberration in his assist totals and considering how horrible Matthews linemates are at scoring goals I'd be hesitant to declare him a better playmaker when his last few full seasons saw him with no more assists than Matthews had in his rookie season.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

I don't think Matthews is better than Stamkos (but maybe 10 years from now?)

I don't think Matthews should be compared to McDavid (thank god, that is your burden)

I absolutely think there is nothing wrong with people talking about Auston Matthews as though he might just be one of the best players in the league, prematurely as it may seem to some, it's far less premature than other players of his skill set.

That's all I'm gonna say on it.

 

[Mr Hockey]

help the cause ...

 

[Panthaz89]

There are literally two things Stamkos does better than Matthews, and 3 if you include playing next to Kucherov as one of them. He has a much better one timer, and he skates faster in a straight line. That is it.

This season also seems to be an aberration in his assist totals and considering how horrible Matthews linemates are at scoring goals I'd be hesitant to declare him a better playmaker when his last few full seasons saw him with no more assists than Matthews had in his rookie season.

Yeah we get it Kucherov is alone the only reason Stamkos is worth anything. Next you'll discredit his 3 90+ point seasons including his 50+ goal year in his sophomore season all before Kucherov was even a thought for the Lightning. You act like he's an old over the hill player when the guy is freaking 27 years old in his prime when the only real negative was his injuries holding him back from being on the ice. Maybe one day Matthews will have 50 or 60 goals like this loser Stamkos did within his first four seasons.

 

[Empoleon8771]

View attachment 90793

help the cause ...

That plot just shows Matthews faces tough competition at slightly less than a 50/50 split for OZone and DZone starts. It doesn't say anything beyond that, though.

No one thinks Matthews is bad defensively, but I don't see what makes him good enough defensively where you actually mention it as a pro for him. You only see defense being mentioned as a pro when the player is elite defensively. Crosby and McDavid are probably above average defensively, but no one really mentions that as significant parts of their game.

 

[Mr Hockey]

That plot just shows Matthews faces tough competition at slightly less than a 50/50 split for OZone and DZone starts. It doesn't say anything beyond that, though.

I was just adding info to your discussion, carry on.

 

[Critical13]

Yes. Wheeler is the best player on the Jets and has been for sometime.

That’s what I was looking for, thanks.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

That plot just shows Matthews faces tough competition at slightly less than a 50/50 split for OZone and DZone starts. It doesn't say anything beyond that, though.

No one thinks Matthews is bad defensively, but I don't see what makes him good enough defensively where you actually mention it as a pro for him. You only see defense being mentioned as a pro when the player is elite defensively. Crosby and McDavid are probably above average defensively, but no one really mentions that as significant parts of their game.

well you could look at GA and xGA, where Matthews performs closer to Bergeron than to Crosby or McDavid. it depends what you look for when evaluating defense I suppose. For me, I value the player who outscores their opponent to the greatest degree/is expected to pretty highly

Don't you think it's impressive that Matthews goes against the best opposition and outscores them 33 to 11? Crosby's been outscored 15-31 by comparison