I'm not talking about careers here or 60 goal Stamkos, I believe he has more impact on a hockey game right now than Stamkos does.
Why is Auston Matthews considered a top 10 player?
- Thread starter ConnorMcMullet
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I'm not talking about careers here or 60 goal Stamkos, I believe he has more impact on a hockey game right now than Stamkos does.
Matthews > Stamkos, Barkov, Getzlaf and Scheifele.
Scheifele better offensively??? What are their PPG's and GPG's looking like??? Especially at 5v5. We already know Matthews is far better defensively. Kind of a shame you can't even look up basic stats
All of the expert minds in hockey believe him to be a top-10 player. It's the HFBoards keyboard analysts who don't want to believe it.
I'll take the experts word anyday over a bunch of sour haters
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Oh god, my sides. This is hilarious, just a Toronto fan being an insane homer for the Leafs. The fact that you think Matthews is better than Stamkos, let alone the rest of them, eliminates any sort of credibility you may have had.
Scheifele better offensively??? What are their PPG's and GPG's looking like??? Especially at 5v5. We already know Matthews is far better defensively. Kind of a shame you can't even look up basic stats
Kinda a shame that you can't even look up last year's stats.
Last year plus this year:
Scheifele: 47 goals and 120 points in 117 games
Matthews: 57 goals and 100 points in 112 games
Which one is it? Is Matthews better than Stamkos, despite Stamkos annihilating Matthews in production this year, or is Scheifele not better than Matthews offensively because of stats this year?
You know how badly it reeks of desperation when you need to add in Matthews' rookie year to favor Scheifele right? Where was Scheifele as a rookie?
Right now, Matthews is far and away the better player. Facts are facts, deal with them.
You're supporting my thought that you are very uninformed or don't watch enough hockey. Backstrom and Barkov are clearly better than Matthews? That's honestly a bit of joke. Also lol at Getzlaf better defensively and offensively and Scheifele better than Matthews offensively by a healthy margin, are you just making stuff up as you go along or what?
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Who cares? We're talking about right now. What Scheifele did in his rookie year is totally irrelevant. The fact that you're asking what Scheifele did in 2013-2014 is the actual desperate thing here, that's just sad.
So why is Matthews better than Stamkos? If all that matters is this year, how can you possibly justify Matthews being better than Stamkos despite Stamkos smashing Matthews in production? I know the answer, it's just you're insanely biased, but I want to hear some sort of actual justification here.
I can say the same about you. Yes, Backstrom and Barkov are clearly better than Matthews. You'd have to be a Leafs homer to suggest otherwise. Backstrom is clearly better both offensively and defensively. Barkov is a monster defensively while also putting up near PPG numbers. Yes, I say with absolute confidence that they're both clearly better than Matthews.
And why don't you look at the production of Scheifele, Getzlaf and Matthews since Matthews entered the league? But yes, it's just me "making stuff up as I go" despite me actually having stats to back up my claims
Stamkos has 5 even strength goals, feasts on the powerplay and feeds off of arguably the best offensive player in the league. On top of that he receives more ice time and powerplay time. Matthews is easily better at even strength, especially for the ice time he gets. Defensively he is also a fair bit better but Stamkos is not bad there either. All of this is not to say he isn't a great player, but acting like he is clearly superior to Matthews is not only a stretch but IMO just false.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Stamkos is outscoring Matthews by 18 points this year. Jesus Christ, this is pathetic to read. And you're saying I don't have hockey knowledge, wow.
If your argument stems down to 1 cherrypicked stat that actually doesn't show anything (seriously, do you think ES goals is enough of an argument to prove anything?) and citing Stamkos getting 40 more seconds a game of TOI, I'm thinking you don't actually have an argument here. But yes, I'm the one with bad hockey knowledge.
JetsHomer
Registered User
- Nov 29, 2011
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LolMatthews > Stamkos, Barkov, Getzlaf and Scheifele.
Scheifele better offensively??? What are their PPG's and GPG's looking like??? Especially at 5v5. We already know Matthews is far better defensively. Kind of a shame you can't even look up basic stats
- May 1, 2011
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The ''Expert minds'' in hockey also think that Martin Jones is a top 10 goalie (like I just said), as well as numerous other mind numbingly stupid things.All of the expert minds in hockey believe him to be a top-10 player. It's the HFBoards keyboard analysts who don't want to believe it.
I'll take the experts word anyday over a bunch of sour haters
Not that I think Auston Matthews is far off from a top player (like the Jones comparison with goaltenders), just that he's not quite there yet. He's approaching it. At the end of this season I'd like to give a more accurate assessment.
I'm by no means a hater, but I also don't blindly follow the experts who tell me that Jake Allen is one of the very best in the league (like Kelly Hrudey told me on HNIC recently), or other wild inaccuracies.
Not that I think Auston Matthews being a top 10 forward in the league would be wildly inaccurate like the Jones/Allen stuff, just that I don't think it's clear cut yet. He's close, he's pretty nearly there.
Why thank you very much, that's exactly what I was saying before, wasn't sure why you brought up Scheif's production last year when we're talking about now. And Matthews is ahead of Scheifele in both PPG and GPG along with being a far superior ES scorer, glad that you have laid the facts on the table to conclude Matthews to be superior
#NHLTopPlayers: Nos. 10-1
Seems like the experts have no problem agreeing with me that Matthews is the superior player to Stamkos, I'll gladly take their opinion over yours. He can gather as many gimme-assists from Kucherov as he likes but it still won't change the fact that Matthews is superior. It appears that the facts are on my side yet again.
Since Matthews entered the league... first off he was a rookie last year, and secondly he finished 2nd in the NHL in goals and leads the NHL in even strength goals in his career so far. If you think he is anything less than an extremely good defensive center I would guess you are uninformed, and Getzlaf is not a Selke candidate, neither is Backstrom, both are very good defensively though. His chance generation, puck possession, goal scoring, and overall dominance is something that only Getzlaf on his best day can match between the two minus the goal scoring. Both are much better playmakers though I'll give them that.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Seriously, I genuinely have no idea how someone would try to argue that Matthews is better than Stamkos. I am genuinely shocked someone could actually think that. Stamkos has been doing for like 8 years what Matthews' best has been so far. Stamkos from age 19-28 has been a 47 goal, 88 point player per 82 games. He's doing even better than that this year.
Okay, so Matthews is better than Scheifele because he's better in goals/game and points/game this year, but Stamkos isn't better than Matthews despite Stamkos having a huge advantage on Matthews in points/game this year because a NHL.com list said he was better on September 30th. Can't you see how incredibly two-faced this is? In the same post, that makes it even worse.
And why are people acting like powerplay points don't count all of a sudden? The only arguments people use to back Matthews here are ES goals, because that's the only stat that actually has him on par with these centers.
Oh okay, you don't actually have an argument, you're just going to crutch on what people from NHL.com said. Oh yeah, that list was released on September 30th. You know, after Stamkos missed 60 games last year and didn't have a 106 point pace halfway through the season. But yes, that is a completely logical argument here.
So yeah, you're just insanely biased and you don't actually have an argument here. I don't even know why I bother arguing with clearly biased people, it's like talking to a tree.
So are you just going to keep clinging to ES goals to provide your argument? I see nothing that makes me think Matthews is a better defensive center than either Getzlaf or Backstrom, nothing statistically supports it. Backstrom and Getzlaf both have better possession stats while getting either equal or more difficult defensive minutes. They're both better players than Matthews, Backstrom is clearly better too.
Why thank you very much, that's exactly what I was saying before, wasn't sure why you brought up Scheif's production last year when we're talking about now. And Matthews is ahead of Scheifele in both PPG and GPG along with being a far superior ES scorer, glad that you have laid the facts on the table to conclude Matthews to be superior
Okay, so Matthews is better than Scheifele because he's better in goals/game and points/game this year, but Stamkos isn't better than Matthews despite Stamkos having a huge advantage on Matthews in points/game this year because a NHL.com list said he was better on September 30th. Can't you see how incredibly two-faced this is? In the same post, that makes it even worse.
And why are people acting like powerplay points don't count all of a sudden? The only arguments people use to back Matthews here are ES goals, because that's the only stat that actually has him on par with these centers.
Oh okay, you don't actually have an argument, you're just going to crutch on what people from NHL.com said. Oh yeah, that list was released on September 30th. You know, after Stamkos missed 60 games last year and didn't have a 106 point pace halfway through the season. But yes, that is a completely logical argument here.
So yeah, you're just insanely biased and you don't actually have an argument here. I don't even know why I bother arguing with clearly biased people, it's like talking to a tree.
So are you just going to keep clinging to ES goals to provide your argument? I see nothing that makes me think Matthews is a better defensive center than either Getzlaf or Backstrom, nothing statistically supports it. Backstrom and Getzlaf both have better possession stats while getting either equal or more difficult defensive minutes. They're both better players than Matthews, Backstrom is clearly better too.
Wait, you can read the point leaders from nhl.com and you have more hockey knowledge? I think it's obvious why Stamkos is outscoring him by 18 points, what good does playing dumb do you here?
Panthaz89
Buffalo Sabres, Carolina Panthers fan
We get it he's a goal scorer......now tell people something they don't know. They aren't going to call him elite unless he's even at least threatening a Hart...of which rookies right now are currently ahead of him in the race for it and one rookie is even on pace to beat him(and his AMAZING ROOKIE SEASON GOAL TOTAL) in his best attribute(goal scoring). Crosby walked in and won a Hart....McDavid walked in and won a Hart...so why do you think Matthews should do anything less to earn their kind of recognition they earned in their first years at this point?
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Because he's a better player. Wow, that's so amazing!
At least me looking at stats is more logical than saying "I think he's better". At least my arguments have some sort of statistical basis to use. You're just repeating "ES goals!!!!!" over and over again. I also find it funny how Matthews' rookie year stats matter when you're propping him up, but when it looks negative towards him, it was just his rookie year and "how did Scheifele do his rookie year?".
No rookie had scored 40 goals as a teenager since Lindros. No teenager in there draft +1 has done it since Lemieux.
Lets see if Boeser holds on, he's currently shooting 20%. How about the fact Matthews is top 5 in primary points at 5v5 since he entered the league?
Seriously, someone name me the last D+1 rookie to lead the league in ES goals? Name me the last rookie who led their team to the playoffs in their D+1 season at there best player. I'll be waiting.
That's a fancy way of admitting you were completely wrong about Scheifele being better
Kind of funny how when the facts are laid out, you turn tail. You're not seriously trying to imply that those experts weren't aware of Stamkos' previous pedigree as a 50+ goal scorer are you? They're experts, not haters. They're well aware that hockey is played over 200 feet of ice, and that there's far more to the game than sniping one-timers from the circle. Seems like they're well aware that Matthews is better than Stamkos at everything else other than sniping one timers from the circle.
Panthaz89
Buffalo Sabres, Carolina Panthers fan
Its nice like Evander Kane is one of the best even-strength goal scores over the past couple seasons...doesn't change his overall point total or the fact that 90 is a lot better than 70 as no matter how a point is earned. Its not the rest of the players fault that Matthews isn't producing on the PP.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
I'll ask this because I actually haven't gotten a good answer: if we're talking about right now, why does it matter if Matthews was a rookie when he did what he did last year? The discussions here aren't "who will be the best player as his peak?", they're always talking about the best player now. If that's the discussion, why does it matter that Matthews was a rookie? No one thinks that Matthews won't be better than Scheifele in like 3 years, but that's not the discussion that is being had when we're talking about now. It's why the "what did Scheifele do in his rookie year?" argument doesn't work, it's not a comparison of rookie year Scheifele to rookie year Matthews. It's a comparison of them right now.
I know why people bring that argument up, because it's easier to try and manipulate the question into something it's not rather than actually answer it, but just humor me.
I was not wrong about Scheifele, though? He has 20 more points in the last 2 years than Matthews in only 5 more games. That's a better points/game. Sure, Matthews is a better goal scorer, but that doesn't make him a better offensive player. How was I "completely wrong" about Scheifele? Their PPGs this year are more or less the same and Scheifele's last year was a lot better.
Are you actually going to answer my question on how it's not insanely two faced to say Matthews is better than Scheifele because of stats from this year, but not extend the same for Stamkos over Matthews? Or are you going to pretend it's not insanely biased? It has nothing to do with NHL.com writers being "haters", it's questioning your dumb argument. Your argument for Matthews over Stamkos is a classic appeal to authority logical fallacy, while the argument you're using to prop Matthews up over Scheifele also puts Stamkos over Matthews.
Seeing how you don't understand the insane hypocrisy in that argument, and how you think I was "completely wrong" about Scheifele being better offensively despite Scheifele having a clearly better points/game in the last 2 years, I'm guessing you're just insanely biased.
I know why people bring that argument up, because it's easier to try and manipulate the question into something it's not rather than actually answer it, but just humor me.
That's a fancy way of admitting you were completely wrong about Scheifele being better
I was not wrong about Scheifele, though? He has 20 more points in the last 2 years than Matthews in only 5 more games. That's a better points/game. Sure, Matthews is a better goal scorer, but that doesn't make him a better offensive player. How was I "completely wrong" about Scheifele? Their PPGs this year are more or less the same and Scheifele's last year was a lot better.
Are you actually going to answer my question on how it's not insanely two faced to say Matthews is better than Scheifele because of stats from this year, but not extend the same for Stamkos over Matthews? Or are you going to pretend it's not insanely biased? It has nothing to do with NHL.com writers being "haters", it's questioning your dumb argument. Your argument for Matthews over Stamkos is a classic appeal to authority logical fallacy, while the argument you're using to prop Matthews up over Scheifele also puts Stamkos over Matthews.
Seeing how you don't understand the insane hypocrisy in that argument, and how you think I was "completely wrong" about Scheifele being better offensively despite Scheifele having a clearly better points/game in the last 2 years, I'm guessing you're just insanely biased.
Except Matthews is producing fine on the PP, its just we run two units instead of stacking the top 1. Realize over the last two seasons he has a better P/60 P1/60 and on the PP than Eichel. I mean, he's 14th in the league at P/60 on the Powerplay for players who have played over 200 minutes since the start of 2016-17.
Again, find me the last D+1 player to be the best player on a playoff team and find me the lasT d+1 rookie to lead the league in Even strength goals. Hell, fine me the last D+1 rookie to be top 3 in all situations goals.
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BlueBaron
Registered User
Ah I see you have been studying the Buffalo technique of comparing his rookie season to your star player. Great role models.
SmoggyTwinkles
Go Leafs Go
Seriously, I genuinely have no idea how someone would try to argue that McDavid is better than Stamkos. I am genuinely shocked someone could actually think that. Stamkos has been doing for like 8 years.
/answer to OP
You don't see the difference there? Matthews is quite simply a much more dominant even strength player than Stamkos and much better defensively despite playing with far inferior offensive and defensive linemates at even strength. Roughly 80% or more of a game is played at even strength, no one is saying powerplay points don't count but even strength play is clearly more valuable. The point is the extra per game production is not quite as impressive given the cirumstances or necessarily makes Stamkos a more valuable player overall when you take everything into consideration. I would also guess the gap in their points and points per game will decrease as the season goes on.
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