Why does Hockey combine Goals and Assists together?

[Wayne Primeau]

This is potentially the most curiously existential thread I've ever seen on this site.

 

[Lukin1978]

assists are kind of rare, relatively, in soccer. Most goals are unassisted, its kind of subjective when a pass is deemed worthy of an assist in that it "Directly led to the scoring chance". In hockey, the goalie could have farted on the puck behind his own net and the forward picks it up and goes coast to coast for a goal and the goalie still gets the assist.

If a goalie farts on a puck he should get an assist.

 

[Strangle]

Points are points. They go on the scoreboard. Assists and rebounds don't. A goal goes on the board and an assist doesn't. You win with the bigger number on the scoreboard.

The question is simple. Last season there were 2 50 goal scorers and 32 50 assist scorers. Clearly one of those is harder to get than the other. Yet the 50 assists are worth the same as the 50 goals. Makes you wonder

There isn’t much to wonder about, if you stand at the circle accepting passes and blasting slap shots and never pass to your teammates in a position where they can score, you’ll end up with less points. You might score more goals, but that kind of selfish, one dimensional, play will not lead to a scoring title.

meanwhile, taking your shots when it makes sense and putting the puck in a place that gives your teammates a chance to score will help you lead the league.

No player is getting 50 goals without someone to put the puck on their stick at the right time.

 

[Strangle]

And so, the question is, why is an assist carry the same value as a goal, when scoring goals is clearly more difficult? Simple question. Having a goal champion and an assist champion makes perfect sense to me. There is a goal championship because the point system devalues goals. Even with that people here clearly are not impressed by the goal scorer.

The idea is that the goal wouldn’t have happened without the pass. It’s not an individually dominated game like basketball is.

Basketball is mostly 1-on-1 matchups, where the pass to the player isn’t usually important, the isolation and 1-on-1 move after the pass is what leads to the bucket.

In hockey, it’s a unit playing a system that leads to scoring, not one player making a move on another player.



Who made this goal possible? Without the assist, there is no goal. This is how hockey works. The pass is just as, if not more so, important to the point going on the board.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Once we start differentiating assists, we need to do the same with goals. Should empty net goals count more than a primary assist? Powerplay points count half of what even strength do? Shorthanded count more than even strength? Where do we draw the line in terms of "importance"? It's a subjective concept with subjective answers...hence objective ways of analyzing it (all goals+all assists (primary or secondary=points isn't going to please anybody...but does anybody really have a better system?

 

[TheOtherOne]

Good point, but I think it has something to do with the relative value of goals and assists.

In hockey, you never really know which was more important. A player can go through a great individual effort and score a goal on his own. Or a player can brilliantly bank in a goal off Abdelkader's ass. Sometimes, even a secondary assist is the most important part of a scoring play, when all the goalscorer and primary assister had to do was stand there with their sticks on the ice.

If a player has 100 secondary assists in a season, you can probably approximate that they're extremely important to the team's production, even if they themself have no goals.

On the other hand, in soccer or basketball, there's a very clear hierarchy almost always (of course some exceptions). The best pass in the world isn't going to do much if the goalscorer doesn't do the most important part. The finish is critical.

I don't know if this is the real answer but I feel like it's approximately true.

 

[Strangle]

Good point, but I think it has something to do with the relative value of goals and assists.

In hockey, you never really know which was more important. A player can go through a great individual effort and score a goal on his own. Or a player can brilliantly bank in a goal off Abdelkader's ass. Sometimes, even a secondary assist is the most important part of a scoring play, when all the goalscorer and primary assister had to do was stand there with their sticks on the ice.

If a player has 100 secondary assists in a season, you can probably approximate that they're extremely important to the team's production, even if they themself have no goals.

On the other hand, in soccer or basketball, there's a very clear hierarchy almost always (of course some exceptions). The best pass in the world isn't going to do much if the goalscorer doesn't do the most important part. The finish is critical.

I don't know if this is the real answer but I feel like it's approximately true.

It is approximately true. The real discussion here should be “are secondary assists awarded too often?”

a defenseman who makes a 1st pass that springs a 2-on-1 that leads to a cross crease pass for a tip in is a 3 point play.

But maybe a less of those secondary assists are as crucial to the play. Not all goals should have 2 assists given out, imo

Buuuuut I just realized this is a thread made for the reason of devaluing Gretzky’s point totals (again, there are thousands of these at this point I’m sure) by removing his assists so that Ovechkin can be #1 not just in goals but in points as well. Relegating Gretzky to the ‘most assists’ player instead of greatest point scorer.

 

[tenken00]

Am I really that shameless?







Yes.

That sure was a masterful use of it

 

[tenken00]

Perhaps if the OP had any other arguments than "People are too stubborn to try to change it" and "other sports don't do it" without an ounce of insight as to why hockey is the exact same as those other sports when it comes to assists, then this thread may be interesting.

Instead, it' the bimonthly "goals are waaaaaaay more important" thread that you can set your watch to.

I think you mistake my intention. I never said that we should do away with points or to determine that goals are worth more than assists. Points are here to stay, for better or worse.

But if there was never such thing as points, or if it wasn't used as the premier stat to determine player worth, there wouldn't even be a NEED to have arguments about the true value of a goal or an assist. It just wouldn't even be thought of much. Period. Each would just be thought of as different, like as in other sports. QBs can share stats with RBs such as rushing yards, and RBs can have passing stats. But you think of each as different, excelling in different areas.

By pigeon-holing both into one stat, you could argue about what each is exactly worth on HFBoards until the end of time - instead of debating each area on its own merit. We're just so used to the idea of points that we don't question it.

Yes, you could see who is the top player is with points. But you could do so without it. We all know with points aside, who the best player is (and no, it's not Ovechkin by a long shot).

And by using points, it leads to other areas where it can cause confusion. Is the Norris winner (usually the top point getter) really the best defenseman by true value? Stuff like that.

Like I said, it's no big deal. I'm actually surprised this thread is longer than 1 page .

But please don't attribute things to me that really aren't. I thought it was just curiously weird.

 

[tenken00]

It is approximately true. The real discussion here should be “are secondary assists awarded too often?”

a defenseman who makes a 1st pass that springs a 2-on-1 that leads to a cross crease pass for a tip in is a 3 point play.

But maybe a less of those secondary assists are as crucial to the play. Not all goals should have 2 assists given out, imo

Buuuuut I just realized this is a thread made for the reason of devaluing Gretzky’s point totals (again, there are thousands of these at this point I’m sure) by removing his assists so that Ovechkin can be #1 not just in goals but in points as well. Relegating Gretzky to the ‘most assists’ player instead of greatest point scorer.

I guess this is true. I never thought that this would be "devaluing" Gretzky into "Most Assists Player" instead of "Greatest point scorer", which would happen.

Or couldn't it be he's the "Greatest playmaker (assists)" + "Greatest goalscorer (goals)" = "Greatest Player of Alltime" anyways?

I mean isn't that technically true even without having "Greatest point scorer"?

 

[SotasicA]

Yeah, and also team goals for and against per game. Who really cares?

 

[txpd]

The idea is that the goal wouldn’t have happened without the pass. It’s not an individually dominated game like basketball is.

Basketball is mostly 1-on-1 matchups, where the pass to the player isn’t usually important, the isolation and 1-on-1 move after the pass is what leads to the bucket.

In hockey, it’s a unit playing a system that leads to scoring, not one player making a move on another player.



Who made this goal possible? Without the assist, there is no goal. This is how hockey works. The pass is just as, if not more so, important to the point going on the board.

Do you want me to show you any number of Ovechkin goals that couldn't have been scored by anyone else? I doubt it.

Simple yes or no question. Do you value the passer more than the scorer? The system certainly does

 

[Strangle]

Do you want me to show you any number of Ovechkin goals that couldn't have been scored by anyone else? I doubt it.

Simple yes or no question. Do you value the passer more than the scorer? The system certainly does

The point system doesn’t value an assist more than a goal, goals are a specific category of scoring. Leading the league in goals is a prestigious accomplishment, there is not a ‘most assists trophy’. But there is a rocket richard.

The art ross basically cannot be won without counting a players goals (yes I know Gretzky could have done it).

you’re really grasping at straws if you think an idea the rest of us thought of when we were 7 years old (assists aren’t important) is a better idea than 100 years of working stats.

if Ovechkin scores a goal without the puck being passed to him, no assist is awarded. The goal is recorded as ‘unassisted’

I would actually love to combine this thread with the numerous ‘adjusted’ stats threads, it would be hilarious watching everyone argue about how much percentage of a point a goal or an assist would count for in this today

 

[Cup or Bust]

That way we don't overrate guys who mostly only score goals and underrate guys who are constantly creating offensive opportunities and scoring chances from all over the ice for various players besides themselves. Plus they do keep separate stats also for just goals and points, so not sure why it would be an issue.

 

[Plante]

common sense 101:

if it's not broke dont fix it

 

[Strangle]

common sense 101:

if it's not broke dont fix it

The agenda with this idea and why it came up right now is to prop up Ovechkin. A player who absolutely doesn’t need to be propped up. His goal scoring speaks for itself.

it’s an agenda driven idea, trying to make Ovechkin the leading scorer in the league, when he doesn’t get many assists. So they want to devalue the assist with the end goal of making Ovechkin the leagues leading scorer.


EDIT

I just checked, Ovechkin has a mere 17 assists this year. Basically half of what everyone else has in the top 20.

Marner is the stark opposite, with only 14 goals.

looking at these two players is probably the best of the outliers in the NHL today. Ovechkin trends to the extreme on the goals side and Marner trends to the extreme side in the assists category. Most players have a much better balance of scoring.

 

[txpd]

The point system doesn’t value an assist more than a goal, goals are a specific category of scoring.

Care to guess when the last time the Art Ross winner had more goals than assists?

When the greatest goal scorer in the history of the league is dismissed as a top 10 player that certainly indicates that goals are not valued like assists are.

 

[Strangle]

Care to guess when the last time the Art Ross winner had more goals than assists?

When the greatest goal scorer in the history of the league is dismissed as a top 10 player that certainly indicates that goals are not valued like assists are.

So the veil has dropped, officially.

This thread is about Ovechkin having 40 goals and only 17 assists. But you want Ovechkin to be the greatest player of all time.

This is all this entire charade is about. Your agenda as a caps fan.

Pasta has 38 goals, pretty close to Ovechkin! But, he also has more than double Ovechkin’s assists. Who is having a better year?

 

[txpd]

The agenda with this idea and why it came up right now is to prop up Ovechkin. A player who absolutely doesn’t need to be propped up. His goal scoring speaks for itself.

it’s an agenda driven idea, trying to make Ovechkin the leading scorer in the league, when he doesn’t get many assists. So they want to devalue the assist with the end goal of making Ovechkin the leagues leading scorer.

Actually, its not that at all. Its the devaluing of his accomplishments because he is a goal scorer. He's just a goal scorer. I repeat. 2 players with 50 goals with 32 players with 50 assists.

Funny thing is that when its all over. Ovechkin may have the all time goal scoring record and have the most points scored in his era yet many will argue he isn't even the best player of his generation.

 

[Strangle]

Actually, its not that at all. Its the devaluing of his accomplishments because he is a goal scorer. He's just a goal scorer. I repeat. 2 players with 50 goals with 32 players with 50 assists.

Funny thing is that when its all over. Ovechkin may have the all time goal scoring record and have the most points scored in his era yet many will argue he isn't even the best player of his generation.

Ovechkin may become the greatest goal scorer of all time. Be happy with that, it’s an incredible accomplishment.

personally, I wouldn’t leave the greatest goal scorer of all time off the top 10 list. How could you?

but assists count, you’ll have to live with that.

a team full of goal scorers, unintuitively, will not do very well scoring goals

 

[Strangle]

Here look at it a different way. Mitch Marner has turned Zach Hyman into a perennial 20 goal scorer. Possibly a career high of 30 goals this year.

Zach Hyman goals are not the same as Ovechkin goals, but without Marner putting the puck on Hyman’s stick with an open net is a lot more valuable than Hyman tapping the puck into the net.

this is why Marner is the anti-Ovechkin. Marner creates goals for other players who normally wouldn’t score them. Ovechkin creates assists for players who normally wouldn’t get them

 

[SotasicA]

I did this thread a year ago:

Who invented points and why?

 

[KCbus]

If a goalie farts on a puck he should get an assist.

What if he doesn’t fart ON it, per se, but just towards it?

 

[Lukin1978]

What if he doesn’t fart ON it, per se, but just towards it?

Nope doesn't count there had to be pushing force on the puck.

 

[inthewings]

Baseball adds OBP & SLG together and calls it OPS.

Many stats include other stats within them. Shots includes goals, for example.

Baseball analysts realized that OPS was stupid because a point of OBP is more valuable than a point of SLG, so nobody really uses it anymore. The same will (or should) happen eventually with points in hockey.