Why does Hockey combine Goals and Assists together?

[txpd]

Points are points in the NBA.
Goals are goals in the NHL

They don't add up the Goals and Assists at the end of the game and thats how you win in the NHL
Same as they don't add up the Blocks and Rebounds to the Points in the NBA.

You are arguing the basic semantics of the sport. They are what they are because that's what they are.

Why is there 3 points in the NBA? Why is a dunk worth the same as an actual shot inside the arch? One if the thrown, one is placed into the basket.
It's that way because that's what the rules dictate. That's all there is too it.

And so, the question is, why is an assist carry the same value as a goal, when scoring goals is clearly more difficult? Simple question. Having a goal champion and an assist champion makes perfect sense to me. There is a goal championship because the point system devalues goals. Even with that people here clearly are not impressed by the goal scorer.

 

[txpd]

Is the guy who scored 41 goals with 75 assists having a bigger offensive impact then the 51 goal scorer with 38 assists and hundreds more shot attempts even though he’s not a “50 goal scorer”? That’s the point of points.

I don't know. If there are 2 50 goal scorers in the NHL and in the same season there are 32 players with 50 assists I would find that the player with the 50 goals to have accomplished more.

 

[JerseyMike34]

And so, the question is, why is an assist carry the same value as a goal, when scoring goals is clearly more difficult? Simple question. Having a goal champion and an assist champion makes perfect sense to me. There is a goal championship because the point system devalues goals. Even with that people here clearly are not impressed by the goal scorer.

It doesn't.

A goal is more valuable. You said it yourself. The thing that's put on the scoreboard, wins games. Goals win games. Goals are more valuable.

An assist only carries the same value as a goal in terms of accumulating points for an individual player. Why would it do that? It's the same as adding up all the different types of points you can get in the NBA. It tells you how many points they got over the season, it doesn't tell you how, 3s? Dunks? Midrange? You have to look at the stats as a whole to figure that out.

 

[Brownies]

It’s been done like that forever and putting goals on the same step as assists rewards collaboration in a team sport.

I think we should embrace the things that make hockey unique.

 

[JerseyMike34]

I don't know. If there are 2 50 goal scorers in the NHL and in the same season there are 32 players with 50 assists I would find that the player with the 50 goals to have accomplished more.

So you're saying that a player with 50 goals and 0 Assists vs a player with 0 goals and 50 assists has accomplished more?

Well, that depends on the player, the ice time, the role each player was having.

Looking at stats in ANY sport, don't need to make sense, as long as the sport itself makes sense for it.

A defenceman with 5 G, 25 AST can be seen as more valueable then a defenceman with 16 G, 14 AST

 

[Pucker Factor 10]

In hockey, the goalie could have farted on the puck behind his own net and the forward picks it up and goes coast to coast for a goal and the goalie still gets the assist.

I can see it now in the NYT article - "Lundqvist picked up the only assist on a nice fart to Panarin."

 

[moropanov]

Hmm it is just false logic that goals are more valuable because they are more rare'r.. Player's who are shooter type players get more goals ratio compared to assists and there is like1,7 assists per goal so average playing style player who shoots 50% passes 50% gets more assists than goals so yes there is more 50 assist makers than 50 goal scorers. Still doesnt mean those goals are on average more valuable> scorer should get assists also from rebounds deflections and overall if he doesnt get more points it propably means he isnt better offensive player than others who get more points on average. It depends more about play style lets say you put 3 50 goal scorers from different teams in line they will not likely score 150 together them three combined in same line some will get lesser goals and replace them with assists but are they worse players safter '' trading'' those goals to assists?

 

[CycloneSweep]

It doesn't.

A goal is more valuable. You said it yourself. The thing that's put on the scoreboard, wins games. Goals win games. Goals are more valuable.

An assist only carries the same value as a goal in terms of accumulating points for an individual player. Why would it do that? It's the same as adding up all the different types of points you can get in the NBA. It tells you how many points they got over the season, it doesn't tell you how, 3s? Dunks? Midrange? You have to look at the stats as a whole to figure that out.

Yes but in basketball the points are often more individual based. Guy puts ball in net. In hockey you can shoot the puck in clean, it can bounce off buddies chest, ricochet of others etc. It's why goals and assists are seen equally. Some of the all time great players scored goals and literally got linemates goals by using them as something to bank a shot off of.

 

[7even]

you just wanted to say post hoc didn’t you?

Am I really that shameless?







Yes.

 

[Jetcetera]

Dont fix what isnt broken

 

[mad4comp]

So you're saying that a player with 50 goals and 0 Assists vs a player with 0 goals and 50 assists has accomplished more?

Well, that depends on the player, the ice time, the role each player was having.

Looking at stats in ANY sport, don't need to make sense, as long as the sport itself makes sense for it.

A defenceman with 5 G, 25 AST can be seen as more valueable then a defenceman with 16 G, 14 AST

I would. There's no "secondary goals" measure. There are "Secondary assists" though. So yea, the guy that scored 50 goals contributed more than the guy that had 50 assists.

Even still, if we take secondary assists out of the equation, assists aren't a measure of anything. You could pass the puck to a guy from your blue line, he could enter the offensive zone, skate around for 30 seconds and then score... you get an assist... why?

This is why goal scoring is still king. It should carry twice the weight of an assist.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Basketball does PPG, APG, RPG etc.

If they did total stats it would be way too messy.

Hockey combines them for a similar reason: For clarity and simplicity.

 

[SotasicA]

Points are dumb anyway. The most overrated stat by far.

 

[Last Gleaming]

Even still, if we take secondary assists out of the equation, assists aren't a measure of anything. You could pass the puck to a guy from your blue line, he could enter the offensive zone, skate around for 30 seconds and then score... you get an assist... why?

That scenario is so rare & unrepresentative of assists in general as to be worthless in this discussion.

Goals and assists are treated as equal for points because it's worthwhile to have a statistic that's a pure count of scoring involvements. In the abstract, it'd probably be better for the scorekeepers to be more sparing with the assists - maybe 1.4-1.5 assists per goal on average rather than 1.7 - but the system is fairly set & common to everybody at this time.

 

[daver]

Points are points. They go on the scoreboard. Assists and rebounds don't. A goal goes on the board and an assist doesn't. You win with the bigger number on the scoreboard.

The question is simple. Last season there were 2 50 goal scorers and 32 50 assist scorers. Clearly one of those is harder to get than the other. Yet the 50 assists are worth the same as the 50 goals. Makes you wonder

Assists are easier to accumulate because they can give out two per goal if deemed reasonable. Doesn't mean that making a play that leads to a goal or a good scoring chance is easier to do than scoring a goal.

If anyone should get this point, it's an OV fan.

 

[daver]

Points are dumb anyway. The most overrated stat by far.

Yeah, and also team goals for and against per game. Who really cares?

 

[txpd]

Assists are easier to accumulate because they can give out two per goal if deemed reasonable. Doesn't mean that making a play that leads to a goal or a good scoring chance is easier to do than scoring a goal.

If anyone should get this point, it's an OV fan.

When they award 2 assists for nearly every goal the idea that 100 assists is as difficult to achieve as 100 goals is ludicrous.

 

[cowboy82nd]

assists are kind of rare, relatively, in soccer. Most goals are unassisted, its kind of subjective when a pass is deemed worthy of an assist in that it "Directly led to the scoring chance". In hockey, the goalie could have farted on the puck behind his own net and the forward picks it up and goes coast to coast for a goal and the goalie still gets the assist.

That must have been some massive fart!! DAMN.

 

[mad4comp]

That scenario is so rare & unrepresentative of assists in general as to be worthless in this discussion.

Goals and assists are treated as equal for points because it's worthwhile to have a statistic that's a pure count of scoring involvements. In the abstract, it'd probably be better for the scorekeepers to be more sparing with the assists - maybe 1.4-1.5 assists per goal on average rather than 1.7 - but the system is fairly set & common to everybody at this time.

That was an example scenario, here are a few more.

Here are two more -
Hagelin randomly throws puck out of the zone, backstrom collects, Carlson scores. Hagelin gets an assist for clearing the zone.
Carlson puts his stick out to stop a cross-crease pass. puck deflects and goes to Ovechkin for the empty netter. Carlson gets an assist for no reason.

Where is the skill in either of those assists? As compared to the goal scorer who had to put the puck in net.

It happens quite a few times per game. Fact of the matter is, assists are not on the same level as goal scoring.

Which is why when I responded to the original post, I would take the guy that scores 50 goals over the guy that has 50 assists. Heck, I'd take 50 goalscorer over 100 assist man.

 

[MXD]

Because substracting assists from goals would be very stupid.

 

[jetsforever]

They do separate them into goal and assist stats, and the combined points stat is meant to reflect that on average the goal scorer and assist getters contributed equally to the play (sometimes one or the other might have done more but it evens out).

 

[jetsforever]

That was an example scenario, here are a few more.

Here are two more -
Hagelin randomly throws puck out of the zone, backstrom collects, Carlson scores. Hagelin gets an assist for clearing the zone.
Carlson puts his stick out to stop a cross-crease pass. puck deflects and goes to Ovechkin for the empty netter. Carlson gets an assist for no reason.

Where is the skill in either of those assists? As compared to the goal scorer who had to put the puck in net.

It happens quite a few times per game. Fact of the matter is, assists are not on the same level as goal scoring.

Which is why when I responded to the original post, I would take the guy that scores 50 goals over the guy that has 50 assists. Heck, I'd take 50 goalscorer over 100 assist man.

Defenceman skates out of his zone, toe drags around an opponent, unloads a blistering wrister at the net, and at the last second it grazes a forward's shin pad on its way into the net. Who contributed there?

 

[daver]

When they award 2 assists for nearly every goal the idea that 100 assists is as difficult to achieve as 100 goals is ludicrous.

Thanks for not reading my post.

But I will add, every player has the same opportunity to accumulate those "easy" assists, the best offensive players accumulate the most.

 

[1865]

assists are kind of rare, relatively, in soccer. Most goals are unassisted, its kind of subjective when a pass is deemed worthy of an assist in that it "Directly led to the scoring chance". In hockey, the goalie could have farted on the puck behind his own net and the forward picks it up and goes coast to coast for a goal and the goalie still gets the assist.

That's not really true. There are fewer assists than goals of course but most assists are attributed to a player just like when a goalie farts on the puck. It's just not been counted in football for long, the statification of the game is very much a recent development.

 

[daver]

Perhaps if the OP had any other arguments than "People are too stubborn to try to change it" and "other sports don't do it" without an ounce of insight as to why hockey is the exact same as those other sports when it comes to assists, then this thread may be interesting.

Instead, it' the bimonthly "goals are waaaaaaay more important" thread that you can set your watch to.