bland
Registered User
- Jul 1, 2004
- 8,271
- 12,656
Foote is worth far more than Cammalleri at this point. Far more, even at his advanced age.
Why Did The Kings Trade Cammalleri
- Thread starter Stephen
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Foote is worth far more than Cammalleri at this point. Far more, even at his advanced age.
Ollie Weeks
the sea does not dream of you
- Feb 28, 2008
- 13,324
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no name
Registered User
This post screams HF fan boy.The chances of Teubert making any contribution to the KIngs are not good. The chance of him (or anyone) staying 10 years is nill.
no name
Registered User
The Tikkanen
Pest
It's perfectly valid for people that think there is only value in proven NHL players and that they always have more value than a prospect. It's a perfectly good example in proving how weak that logic is.
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
They also ended up with Oscar Moller with one of those picks acquired in the Norstrom trade.
PSP
The Resident Pessimist is back
Not every NHL player is more valuable than every prospect, but IN GENERAL those that have proven that they can play and produce at the NHL level are more valuable than those who haven't proven their worth in the NHL.
That logic is only weak to those who value potential over results. The reality is that while potential makes good discussion, people only care about tangible results.
Would you rather have your team ranked as the #1 prospect franchise or Stanley Cup champion? If the answer isn't clear, you've taken too many self esteem classes.
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
When you are a bottom of the barrel team, having one of the top prospect pools is necessary in order to eventually be considered a Stanley Cup contender.
Observe the Quebec Nordiques/Colorado Avalanche, New Jersey Devils, Pittsburgh Penguins, Anaheim Ducks.
Although not quite a Stanley Cup team, but look how teams like Nashville and San Jose have been consistently good because of their strong depth of talent in the pipeline.
San Jose is consistently producing NHL caliber players who are ready to step in and play integral roles on their roster with the likes of Vlasic, Pavelski, Setoguchi, and they even use players they developed like Bernier to bring in talent like Brian Campbell.
Nashville has a group of defensemen that many teams envy and when the time is right, they will be able to unload one of them to acquire a star player who will be the missing piece. Just as we saw San Jose do when they moved Brad Stuart and another homegrown player in Marco Sturm to acquire Joe Thornton.
Go back to Carolina or Tampa Bay, you'll see that most of their top stars were players that they had drafted. Staal on Carolina or Lecavalier and Richards on Tampa Bay.
Would you prefer to see them hang on to a player who doesn't want to be here or prices himself off of the team? And he is demanding to be the highest paid player on the roster when he isn't even the best or second or third best player on the team (Kopitar, Frolov and Brown are better than Cammalleri, as was O'Sullivan last season).
If he struggles to score or is hampered by injuries next season, his value diminishes even more. And if he announces publicly that he will not entertain offers from the Kings and refuses to sign an extension and wants to test the market, that would even further diminish his value.
Then you guys would have another reason to whine when Lombardi took too long to hang on to Cammalleri and lost him for nothing.
The plain and simple reason is that the Kings can expect similar production from a prospect or a UFA and pay them less/not have to worry about contract negotiations.
Teubert and a Cammy clone is better than Cammy.
Teubert and a Cammy clone is better than Cammy.
Rorschach
Who the f*** is Trevor Moore?
That was his plan then...although he dealt talent veteran guys like Demitra, Avery, Conroy and any other Kings vet he could get his hands on that someone would give him at least a third rounder for. He would have even traded Blake too, to even the hated Ducks possibly, just to get more draft assets. He says one thing to fans to keep them coming to games, which makes his bosses happy. Then he rebuilds and tries to fix Taylor's no-goaltending/defense rebuild mess at the same time. His only problem is that he knows how to build a winning team but his bosses and the fans make him follow other agendas at the same time. However by firing Crawford, ownership has finally got it that the back end needs to be built with youth, especially in the cap age. He tried to rebuild with average draft picks because his hand was forced but now ownership finally realizes that teams need to be built around franchise youth and not picks in the teens. That means committing to youth. Anyone who has followed a team sport for more than a few years knows that this is poorly-ciphered code for losing a lot to get draft picks.
And I'd like to have a bunch of losers like the Pens...losers like Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Fleury, Letang, Malone and loser assets like Esposito, C. Armstrong, Welch and others that helped them net a really huge loser in Hossa. Somehow those losers lost their way to the Cup finals and are poised to lose big again next year. And Hossa is going to lose it big time when he signs that 8-9 mil a year contract.
I also wouldn't mind getting a team full of losers like Sakic, Lindros, Nolan, Sundin and the like. One guy won multiple Cups and the others were used to bring in players needed to get the job done.
Unfortunately the NHL system, like all the major sports award teams for losing with high draft picks. In the cap age, you can't sign free agents to build a team because you'll go over said cap. You have to draft. You have to lose. In fact I can't think of a single team including Detroit and New Jersey along with the Nords/Avs and Pens who didn't lose for 4 seasons and then built a winning organization afterward.
Look, no one likes losing. Under DT, losing had no purpose since DT couldn't draft or trade well. But under DL, losing now has a very important purpose as he has proven his record in finding good players that make the NHL. And he's going to need high picks to get the top franchise talent. No team except for Detroit has been able to get to the finals the last several years without having a lot of talented players on their team that were high picks, especially centers and defensemen. Just look at the last several pairs of Cup finalists. You'll see guys like Lecavalier, Niedermayer, Pronger, Spezza, Heatley, Kariya, Modano, E. Staal...on and on. I don't remember any of those franchises who drafted them winning 60 games and then getting picks like that. Those guys were all drafted high by teams that lost a ton.
- R
FrozenRoyalty
Registered User
- Feb 5, 2008
- 1,903
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I just read this thread and I mostly lurk around here, but I've gotta comment...
1) Cammalleri actually was demanding upwards of $6 million PRIOR to arbitration, according to sources close to the Kings. He got really bad advice from his agent, who is now no longer an agent.
He became Vancouver's GM.
2) If you read or listen to the interviews with Lombardi over the weekend, it is very, very clear that Cammalleri's trade value has dropped BIG TIME. No team with any of the top 15 picks would trade for him outright. In fact, the Kings had to throw in two draft picks of their own and a third from Calgary in order to move up in the draft to nab Teubert. So if you think the Kings could've gotten more for Cammalleri, you are placing way, way too much value on him. Fact is, he has had one really good year and then not only did he get hurt last season, but he played poorly for most of the time he was healthy. You could even see him just going through the motions. We (the folks who cover the team) could see it in his body language in the dressing room after the first month of the season was over.
3) For more on all this, check this out: 2008 NHL Draft: Lombardi’s Plan Comes Together. This story sums up my thoughts/analysis.
Comments appreciated.
1) Cammalleri actually was demanding upwards of $6 million PRIOR to arbitration, according to sources close to the Kings. He got really bad advice from his agent, who is now no longer an agent.
He became Vancouver's GM.2) If you read or listen to the interviews with Lombardi over the weekend, it is very, very clear that Cammalleri's trade value has dropped BIG TIME. No team with any of the top 15 picks would trade for him outright. In fact, the Kings had to throw in two draft picks of their own and a third from Calgary in order to move up in the draft to nab Teubert. So if you think the Kings could've gotten more for Cammalleri, you are placing way, way too much value on him. Fact is, he has had one really good year and then not only did he get hurt last season, but he played poorly for most of the time he was healthy. You could even see him just going through the motions. We (the folks who cover the team) could see it in his body language in the dressing room after the first month of the season was over.
3) For more on all this, check this out: 2008 NHL Draft: Lombardi’s Plan Comes Together. This story sums up my thoughts/analysis.
Comments appreciated.
Dog as Man
Mostly sniffing around.
Losing doesn't equate to building to a championship. Chicago, Columbus, Boston, Florida, Atlanta, Phoenix, and the NYI. Any of those teams win anything lately?
What matters is management of assets, luck, and a winning attitude. Losing begets losing and it is never easy to change the culture of losing. Say what you will, the Taylor led Kings were focused on winning and bad luck (injuries) scuttled the team several years in a row. This was the catalyst for several trades that are now categorized as desperate. But the trades were focused on winning. I like winning better than losing.
DL must win now. He understands that last year's the team should have been better. The losing culture is not yet bonded to most of this this young team. But a bad year this year is potentially a turning point in this team's future winning attitude. If we believe in the youth collected in this group they should be allowed to make their own destiny and let these last six years fade into distant memory. Begin the journey from chumps to champs. It must happen now. It can happen now.
What matters is management of assets, luck, and a winning attitude. Losing begets losing and it is never easy to change the culture of losing. Say what you will, the Taylor led Kings were focused on winning and bad luck (injuries) scuttled the team several years in a row. This was the catalyst for several trades that are now categorized as desperate. But the trades were focused on winning. I like winning better than losing.
DL must win now. He understands that last year's the team should have been better. The losing culture is not yet bonded to most of this this young team. But a bad year this year is potentially a turning point in this team's future winning attitude. If we believe in the youth collected in this group they should be allowed to make their own destiny and let these last six years fade into distant memory. Begin the journey from chumps to champs. It must happen now. It can happen now.
No offense to you Rorschach. But if you read these same boards about 5 years ago you would see everyone on this board saying that Taylor had a great draft getting Brown, Boyle, Tambellini, Pushkarev, Munce, Murray, Pirnes, Zaba, Sullivan, and Guerin. At the time almost everyone of those players were considered future NHL players by many on these boards. People would post their "future lineups" with Brown, Boyle and Tambellini on the first line and Pushkarev, Murray, and Pirnes on the second line. With Munce and Zaba as the goalies.
It is easy to get caught up in the hype of the draft and think that most of these players will see NHL ice. But the fact of the matter is most of them won't. People here say that Dean is so much better at drafting than Taylor. Yet how many Lombardi draft picks have made it to the NHL since he came to the Kings? If you include Bernier's 4 games then you have a grand total of 1. I am sure that a few more will make it in the coming seasons. But do not forget that the Kings best players right now were drafted by Taylor (Kopitar, Frolov, Brown, Visnovsky). We have high hopes for Dean's picks. But there is a chance that only three or four of the picks he made over the last three years will ever make it to the NHL. Will we still say he was better at drafting if that is the case?
I just read this thread and I mostly lurk around here, but I've gotta comment...
1) Cammalleri actually was demanding upwards of $6 million PRIOR to arbitration, according to sources close to the Kings. He got really bad advice from his agent, who is now no longer an agent.
2) If you read or listen to the interviews with Lombardi over the weekend, it is very, very clear that Cammalleri's trade value has dropped BIG TIME. No team with any of the top 15 picks would trade for him outright. In fact, the Kings had to throw in two draft picks of their own and a third from Calgary in order to move up in the draft to nab Teubert. So if you think the Kings could've gotten more for Cammalleri, you are placing way, way too much value on him. Fact is, he has had one really good year and then not only did he get hurt last season, but he played poorly for most of the time he was healthy. You could even see him just going through the motions. We (the folks who cover the team) could see it in his body language in the dressing room after the first month of the season was over.
3) For more on all this, check this out: 2008 NHL Draft: Lombardi’s Plan Comes Together. This story sums up my thoughts/analysis.
Comments appreciated.
The fact that Vancouver's GM Gillis, Cammalleri's former agent, was willing to trade for him but wasn't willing to give up the #10 without Oscar Moller thrown in is a strong indication of his (lack of) value.
It says to me that Cammalleri, a "proven" whatever-you-want-to-call-him, was worth less than or equal to (in the mind of his own former agent) two prospect forwards (since all the picks around #10 were forwards, value-wise, in the 2008 draft).
Buddy The Elf
Kings!
That is what I have been saying. I really wish the person that interviewed Gillis would've asked him why that is all he offered for a $6 million a year offensive juggernaut.
You know Lombardi didn't even think twice about his offer regardless if it is better or not. I don't think we'll be trading with Vancouver anytime soon.
i thought it was quite funny that Spectors basically called Gillis a moron in so many words for even asking for a prospect.
PSP
The Resident Pessimist is back
Using that stream of logic, wasn't this the worst possible time to trade him? If so, why trade him now - just to get ANYTHING for him before he walks?
Since you all seem to believe that his value to this team was limited due to a lack of defense, why not trade him when he was one of the hottest scorers in the NHL after the first month of the season?
If he is the greedy little underachiever who went through the motions after the first month of the season, wouldn't it be logical to assume that he would tear it up this year to raise his value on the free agent market after this season? If so, trade him at the 2009 trade deadline.
Buddy The Elf
Kings!
There are no guarantees in the world. You being a Kings fan should know this! I think Lombardi just decided to cut his losses. What if Michael ends up on the IR at the beginning of the year? Or Michael doesn't put up numbers? That and the fact that you now have a space for another younger player to play. That will speed up the development process instead of waiting 2/3's of the season and hoping Michael scores 25+ goals so he can net a bigger return. And who knows if he would return much at the deadline? The guy has no playoff experience.
Agreed.
Cammy is also older and has more accrued years of experience that the rest of the "core" he would have cost too much for what he would bring. I would rather spend the money on Kopitar and had the rest of core ready while he is still young
additionally, say you do get a first round pick for him at the deadline. presumably he'd be going to a playoff bound team and you've just dealt out this kid for a pick that is unlikely going to be top-20. undoubtedly they'd be likely to get an additional prospect in return, but i'd bet the house it'd be a "difficult" prospect for one of a variety of reasons.
if i were another team's general manager, i'd be a little reticent to give up too much at the deadline despite what i think he may be capable of, what his (what has been insofar) upward trend may indicate, and still be a little dubious of a contract year turnaround and blow it all out season because he has zero playoff experience at the NHL level and the selling GM has reportedly been at least gauging interest, if not actively shopping him since the previous season's trade deadline.
Cammalleri is at a strange, fluxy point in his career. unrestricted free agency couldn't come at a better time for him. Dean Lombardi realized this and moved him at the right time.
if i were another team's general manager, i'd be a little reticent to give up too much at the deadline despite what i think he may be capable of, what his (what has been insofar) upward trend may indicate, and still be a little dubious of a contract year turnaround and blow it all out season because he has zero playoff experience at the NHL level and the selling GM has reportedly been at least gauging interest, if not actively shopping him since the previous season's trade deadline.
Cammalleri is at a strange, fluxy point in his career. unrestricted free agency couldn't come at a better time for him. Dean Lombardi realized this and moved him at the right time.
Camalleri was traded for 1 simple reason : He was not in the LA Kings future plans for several reasons :
- Dean feels he does not deserve to pay Cammy $6 million a year AT THIS POINT and Cammy does.
- There are several players like Boyle and Purcell who can potentially get the same production and cheaper. Risk? Yes. But that is a management and a business decision nothing more nothing less. If you trade him at the deadline we can say we can have gotten a better deal or a lesser deal. But that is what Dean does not want to risk.. so he trades him to Calgary and we get Tsuebert.
All and all, it is in my opinion, a good solid business decision on Dean's part. He has a "Vision" for the LA Kings and along the way there will be a not so popular choices, decisions a GM has to make. And this is one of them.
We can revisit this deal in 2-3 years to see if this was a good or not so good of a deal for the Kings.
- Dean feels he does not deserve to pay Cammy $6 million a year AT THIS POINT and Cammy does.
- There are several players like Boyle and Purcell who can potentially get the same production and cheaper. Risk? Yes. But that is a management and a business decision nothing more nothing less. If you trade him at the deadline we can say we can have gotten a better deal or a lesser deal. But that is what Dean does not want to risk.. so he trades him to Calgary and we get Tsuebert.
All and all, it is in my opinion, a good solid business decision on Dean's part. He has a "Vision" for the LA Kings and along the way there will be a not so popular choices, decisions a GM has to make. And this is one of them.
We can revisit this deal in 2-3 years to see if this was a good or not so good of a deal for the Kings.
I think many of you have this whole situation backwards. The deal wasn't "What can we get for Camalleri", rather it was "What do we give up in order to draft Teubert".
The dynamics in a draft are a bit different than at the trade deadline.
Lets say we decided to hold onto Cammy at the draft to "maximize his value" at the trade deadline. The question remains, what do you give up in order to draft Teubert, while holding on to Cammy?
Teubert was the target and since Camalleri was most likely not going to be signed, he was made the sacrificial lamb, so the Kings could get their man Teubert.
This trade was all about getting Teubert to be a book end to Doughty.
It was a gutsy move by DL to be sure, but in the end, I believe it was his best option in order to keep the core intact.
The dynamics in a draft are a bit different than at the trade deadline.
Lets say we decided to hold onto Cammy at the draft to "maximize his value" at the trade deadline. The question remains, what do you give up in order to draft Teubert, while holding on to Cammy?
Teubert was the target and since Camalleri was most likely not going to be signed, he was made the sacrificial lamb, so the Kings could get their man Teubert.
This trade was all about getting Teubert to be a book end to Doughty.
It was a gutsy move by DL to be sure, but in the end, I believe it was his best option in order to keep the core intact.
Piston
Fire Luc and Blake
I just read this thread and I mostly lurk around here, but I've gotta comment...
1) Cammalleri actually was demanding upwards of $6 million PRIOR to arbitration, according to sources close to the Kings. He got really bad advice from his agent, who is now no longer an agent.
2) If you read or listen to the interviews with Lombardi over the weekend, it is very, very clear that Cammalleri's trade value has dropped BIG TIME. No team with any of the top 15 picks would trade for him outright. In fact, the Kings had to throw in two draft picks of their own and a third from Calgary in order to move up in the draft to nab Teubert. So if you think the Kings could've gotten more for Cammalleri, you are placing way, way too much value on him. Fact is, he has had one really good year and then not only did he get hurt last season, but he played poorly for most of the time he was healthy. You could even see him just going through the motions. We (the folks who cover the team) could see it in his body language in the dressing room after the first month of the season was over.
3) For more on all this, check this out: 2008 NHL Draft: Lombardi’s Plan Comes Together. This story sums up my thoughts/analysis.
Comments appreciated.
Very interesting post. I think DL's biggest challenge has been and continues to be ending the 'Culture of Losing'. If you play on a losing team long enough, you start to expect to lose. Hence, the Doughty pick (he really wants to be here) and Teubert was likely the guy who wowed him in the interview and evidently hates to lose. In the end, it may have been attitude as well as money that resulted in the exit of Michael Cammalleri.
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