Who was the biggest omission from the Four Nations Cup rosters?

[cneely]

You equate Point, Hagel and Cirelli to Rob Zamuner?

Yeah what the hell do Jon Cooper and Doug Armstrong know?

You're making a spectacle of yourself.

Rob Zamuner had 50 points once. Something 27 year old Cirelli has never done.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Kreider making it over anybody is a joke. Abdelkader-esque rn

 

[cneely]

And Brandon Hagel has become pretty good, over PPG since last season and elite 2-way metrics.

Scheifele is PPG over the last 8 years.

Cirelli is clearly a role player for Team Canada, elite defensive player.

Cool. Put Adam Lowry on the team then.

Point is obviously fine. I could even live with Hagel. Cirelli on this team is a joke.

 

[Three On Zero]

Bouchard is Canada's second most dominant defenseman. For his defensive warts which is extremely overblown, he is hockey's most dominant PP point man and has a knack for dramatic goals or plays. He should absolutely be on that team over some of these guys considered far less offensive and even worse defending.

Bouchard’s best attribute is the PP, and he’s not stealing that from Makar. He doesn’t have a place on a best on best roster with Makar healthy.

 

[Regal]

Scheifele is PPG over the last 8 years.

Cool. Put Adam Lowry on the team then.

Point is obviously fine. I could even live with Hagel. Cirelli on this team is a joke.

Scheifele is PPG while being significantly worse defensively and less productive at ES. He wouldn’t play on PP1 on Team Canada so he has no case to be there over Hagel.

Cirelli is a stretch based on his usual standards, but he’s PPG currently and 9 points back of Lowry’s career high. He’s a better player than Lowry.

 

[Regal]

You're making the same mistake team Canada made it seems in placing an inordinate amount of weight on a slow stretch in October and ignoring the larger body of work over the last 3 years. Guy scored 70 goals last year and has excellent chemistry with the best player on team Canada. It is downright dumb to not have him on the roster.

He would have at best been a bubble player going into last year, so talking about the larger body of work doesn’t make sense. He only would have been a lock to make it if he was producing like last year. This isn’t like Crosby having a slow start. He’s part of the group where his play this season was always going to be a deciding factor.

 

[10YearsHaveGotBehind]

He would have at best been a bubble player going into last year, so talking about the larger body of work doesn’t make sense. He only would have been a lock to make it if he was producing like last year. This isn’t like Crosby having a slow start. He’s part of the group where his play this season was always going to be a deciding factor.

Since Hyman joined the Oilers he's 5th among Canadian players in goals with 125. Only McDavid (154), Point (145), Reinhart (140), and MacKinnon (138) have more. He's also first among Canadians for playoff goals in that time with 30. So yes his larger body of work is very impressive and Canada left him off the team due to a cold month.

Its a short tournament where chemistry among players will be very important. And Canada decided that its best player didn't need one of his most regular linemates, one who happens to be one of Canada's top goal scorers.

Its a weird decision.

 

[cneely]

Cirelli is a stretch based on his usual standards, but he’s PPG currently and 9 points back of Lowry’s career high. He’s a better player than Lowry.

He's not a better player than Scheifele, Bedard, and probably 10 other Canadian forwards. His inclusion is awful.

 

[LeafLoyalist]

He's not a better player than Scheifele, Bedard, and probably 10 other Canadian forwards. His inclusion is awful.

It's clear anyone who has this opinion has never watched him play, they look at G&A, nothing else. He's finished top 5 in selke voting 3 times, has been instrumental as Tampas shutdown 2C for 3 stanley cup runs, and is currently having a career year. Even without the career year start this season he was already a candidate to be a role player on Team Canada. Name the other 10 Canadian forwards who have done what Cirelli has done. Filling a team with 12 forward who can just score is simply a recipe for disaster.

 

[Fatass]

It's clear anyone who has this opinion has never watched him play, they look at G&A, nothing else. He's finished top 5 in selke voting 3 times, has been instrumental as Tampas shutdown 2C for 3 stanley cup runs, and is currently having a career year. Even without the career year start this season he was already a candidate to be a role player on Team Canada. Name the other 10 Canadian forwards who have done what Cirelli has done. Filling a team with 12 forward who can just score is simply a recipe for disaster.

Yup. Guys who are stars on their club teams might have to be role players on their national team. Some club level stars are just better suited to play a more supporting role.

 

[cneely]

It's clear anyone who has this opinion has never watched him play, they look at G&A, nothing else. He's finished top 5 in selke voting 3 times, has been instrumental as Tampas shutdown 2C for 3 stanley cup runs, and is currently having a career year. Even without the career year start this season he was already a candidate to be a role player on Team Canada. Name the other 10 Canadian forwards who have done what Cirelli has done. Filling a team with 12 forward who can just score is simply a recipe for disaster.

Bullshit.

Guys who have skills (skating, hockey sense) can be asked to take on different roles. Look at Hawerchuk in '87. On a team with Gretzky and Lemieux he was asked to be a checker and he excelled. Taking guys like Rob Zamnuer over better players is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Bullshit.

Guys who have skills (skating, hockey sense) can be asked to take on different roles. Look at Hawerchuk in '87. On a team with Gretzky and Lemieux he was asked to be a checker and he excelled. Taking guys like Rob Zamnuer over better players is a recipe for disaster.

Sometimes.
In 1996 the USA chose Shawn McEchearn and Steve Konowalchuk
ahead of Joey Mullen, Darren Turcotte, Neal Broten, etc.

Roenick was dropped from the team because he was holding out for a better contract.

It worked out just fine.

 

[cneely]

Sometimes.
In 1996 the USA chose Shawn McEchearn and Steve Konowalchuk
ahead of Joey Mullen, Darren Turcotte, Neal Broten, etc.

Roenick was dropped from the team because he was holding out for a better contract.

It worked out just fine.

A skilled roster can overcome bad decisions. It doesn't mean they aren't bad decisions.

 

[Xspyrit]

Scheifele is PPG over the last 8 years.

You are obviously not aware of the flaws in your logic. Does it matter what Scheifele did 8 years ago? These teams are built based on today

It seems that another poster has already addressed this and frankly his response was perfectly sufficient

Cool. Put Adam Lowry on the team then.

Point is obviously fine. I could even live with Hagel. Cirelli on this team is a joke.

Cirelli has been extremely good this season, favorite for the Selke. I like Lowry but really not the same tier

Have you seen Batherson this season? He's one of my favorite players, I could be pissed that he was not taken too but I understand that very few are a lock, so many good choices.

 

[cneely]

You are obviously not aware of the flaws in your logic. Does it matter what Scheifele did 8 years ago? These teams are built based on today

Schiefele has 110 points in his last 108 games and 38 in 34 games this year. The point is that while Cirelli is having a good year, Scheifele has been doing it for a long time. It's not some hot streak.

Cirelli has been extremely good this season, favorite for the Selke. I like Lowry but really not the same tier

Both good players Neither of them belongs near team Canada.

Scheifele is far from my favorite player.

 

[LeonDraisaitl]

Real happy that Tage was left off the roster, seems like a terrible person.

I’d say that us swedes would’ve rather seen the likes of Backlund and Zetterlund instead of Arvidsson and Nyqvist

Why do you say that?

 

[Hallonbroder]

Why do you say that?

Would’ve rather had Backlunds experience and two-way game and Zetterlunds big body than the other two

 

[Mack a doodle doo]

People still sleeping on how good a player Hyman has become. Definitely Canada’s biggest mission in my opinion.

 

[Regal]

Schiefele has 110 points in his last 108 games and 38 in 34 games this year. The point is that while Cirelli is having a good year, Scheifele has been doing it for a long time. It's not some hot streak.


Both good players Neither of them belongs near team Canada.

Scheifele is far from my favorite player.

Scheifele and Cirelli aren’t vying for the same spot. Canada had better scoring centers than Scheifele. They wanted someone who can play a defensive role. That’s not him

I get the idea that a role player at the NHL level might not be as strong in that role against international teams and sometimes it’s better to take a more skilled player and play them in that role. Certainly Cirelli doesn’t provide the same confidence as a true number 1 two-way center playing that role like 2010 and 2014 had with Toews. I’m not sure if Scheifele would provide any more confidence though.

 

[LeonDraisaitl]

Would’ve rather had Backlunds experience and two-way game and Zetterlunds big body than the other two

Obviously meant your nonsense comment about Thompson

 

[Regal]

Since Hyman joined the Oilers he's 5th among Canadian players in goals with 125. Only McDavid (154), Point (145), Reinhart (140), and MacKinnon (138) have more. He's also first among Canadians for playoff goals in that time with 30. So yes his larger body of work is very impressive and Canada left him off the team due to a cold month.

Its a short tournament where chemistry among players will be very important. And Canada decided that its best player didn't need one of his most regular linemates, one who happens to be one of Canada's top goal scorers.

Its a weird decision.

You’re using his outlier year to prop up all those numbers. He also looks better due to games played, and the fact that some players chosen have only broken out recently. Outside of last year, his numbers in Edmonton are 181 GP 73G 79A 152 PTS. That’s a 33G 36A 69 PT pace per 82.

Here’s how everyone on Team Canada paces per 82 games since 22-23:

McDavid 49G 96A 145 PTS
MacKinnon 47G 86A 133 PTS
Marner 30G 72A 102 PTS
Point 52G 45A 92 PTS
Crosby 35G 56A 91 PTS
Reinhart 45G 40A 85PTS
Konecny 39G 42A 81PTS
Stone 27G 54A 81PTS
Hagel 30G 44A 74 PTS
Marchand 27G 42A 69PTS
Jarvis 24G 31A 55PTS
Bennett 25G 29A 54PTS
Cirelli 21G 29A 50PTS

I’d say not putting too much stock in his outlier year was as much of a factor in the decision as his start. The top 8 forwards listed are all clearly better when you consider Stone’s defense and he and Konecny don’t play with McDavid. Hagel’s a similar player having a better start to the season. Marchand was an early veteran pick that they probably should have held off on, but he’s still not far off Hyman as an offensive player at this point in his career and is a strong PKer. And Cirelli is the shutdown center option. Really the two guys beating Hyman out were Bennett and Jarvis, and

Jarvis’ numbers above look worse due to his age. Jarvis also offers a lot of Hyman’s tenacity and net presence and is probably more skilled individually. He’s also much younger so part of this might be about future Team Canada deployments.

Personally I’d have Hyman over Bennett as he works best as a center and there doesn’t seem an obvious role for him to be that on this team with so many centers already, and his start probably did take him off of that role. There isn’t some huge gap between Hyman and anyone on the team though that’s it’s as egregious as some are making it out to be. He was always considered a tweener to everyone who wasn’t an Oilers fan.

 

[Hallonbroder]

Obviously meant your nonsense comment about Thompson

Oh. I just dislike him because how he is. Off the ice

 

[10YearsHaveGotBehind]

Here’s how everyone on Team Canada paces per 82 games since 22-23:

McDavid 49G 96A 145 PTS
MacKinnon 47G 86A 133 PTS
Marner 30G 72A 102 PTS
Point 52G 45A 92 PTS
Crosby 35G 56A 91 PTS
Reinhart 45G 40A 85PTS
Konecny 39G 42A 81PTS
Stone 27G 54A 81PTS
Hagel 30G 44A 74 PTS
Marchand 27G 42A 69PTS
Jarvis 24G 31A 55PTS
Bennett 25G 29A 54PTS
Cirelli 21G 29A 50PTS

Did you also remove the above players best goal scoring season for your analysis?

 

[Regal]

Did you also remove the above players best goal scoring season for your analysis?

Way to miss the point

 

[10YearsHaveGotBehind]

Way to miss the point

I see the point you are tryin to make. It revolves around removing a certain players best stretch in a sample, and then comparing it against all players complete sample. It is a fundamentally dishonest way to compare players production.