Who is more dominant in their sport: Ohtani, McDavid or Mahomes?

[93LEAFS]

OPS+ also has some faults that aren't initially evident though. As you noted Ohtani's mark of 182 is nothing earth shattering, but OPS+ makes a comparison against the league as a whole and not against the top players. Perhaps it's best if I show an example of what I mean.

Take for instance the last couple seasons a player has lead the league with an 182 OPS - Trout in '19 and Bautista in '11 vs Ohtani this year;
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In 2011 3 players had an OPS+ above 170, 4 above 165 and 6 above 160
In 2019 2 players had an OPS+ above 170, 4 above 165 and 5 above 160
This year just 1 player has an OPS+ above 165 never mind 170 and 3 above 160
(though I suppose a healthy Judge would make that 2, 2 and 4 but that's still less than the norm here)

For some reason the difference between the leagues top players and the average player in the league today is much smaller than in past years. Meaning it's much more difficult and less likely for someone to be an outliner in today's environment that in past years. If only baseball had a stat like VsX. Certainly his numbers still wouldn't be any where near the VsX that say Ruth would've had in his day, but I think they would show that Ohtani's offensive performance is a bit more impressive than it seems considering the clear gap between him and the rest of the best vs many of the other seasons where a player had an OPS around 182.



True, that does knock him down quite a bit. But aside from some of the more modern pitcher on that list like Clemens, Gooden and Carlton I'm sure you'd agree most don't take those WAR numbers seriously.


Edit* I must admit I'm not entirely confident he can keep this up... Right now he's dominating his sport in a way that few players in any league have. But yes indeed, as some of you have noted baseball players do seem to be more prone to slumping. Judge last year was very consistent but even he did have that little mini-blip right at the end there where it looked like he might not get 62. It'll be interesting to see if Ohtani can stave off or at least limit the almost inevitable slump/late season fatigue that hits even the best players in that sport.

I know there considered tainted, but Bonds even prior to the Juice had a couple years above 200 OPS+. And, in the 2000's when he was cheating in a league filled with cheaters was past 250+, with a peak Albert Pujols behind him by like 80 points.

 

[Eternal Leaf]

Ohtani easily.

He's a rare player for his sport. A once-in-a-century talent.

That's nothing McDavid or Mahomes can compare to.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

If you want to point out the DH position let's talk about how Ruth played in an era where most of the best Baseball players weren't even allowed to play. Or the fact that analytics weren't being used much, and nobody was throwing > 100 MPH with disgusting movement. They also used to play in much smaller stadiums.

Obviously it's impossible to compare the two and I have no problem with people going Ruth > Ohtani, but I just wanted to be fair to both sides of the argument.

I'm not saying Ruth > Ohtani. I'm saying Ruth was both a good pitcher and a great power hitter, which refutes the claim that Ohtani is the only player in the long history of baseball to do both.

 

[tsujimoto74]

McDavid. People attribute way too much value to the fact that Ohtani both hits and pitches. It’s absolutely incredible that he does both at such a high level, but he’s not more dominant at either of those things compared to his peers than McDavid is compared to his. And the “extra” roster spot he creates isn’t at all useful because his team is just forced to carry an extra SP for their rotation while having reduced flexibility in the rest of their roster because they’ve got a guy locked into the DH position.

 

[CgyFlamesftw]

Ohtani not close. Funny how similar the Angels and Oilers are however.

 

[QJL]

McDavid is the most dominant male in team sports right smack in the middle of his prime. He is lapping other players at this point.

Ohtani is the equivalent of this description.

Now just imagine if McDavid could play center and goalie?

 

[The Nuge]

McDavid. People attribute way too much value to the fact that Ohtani both hits and pitches. It’s absolutely incredible that he does both at such a high level, but he’s not more dominant at either of those things compared to his peers than McDavid is compared to his. And the “extra” roster spot he creates isn’t at all useful because his team is just forced to carry an extra SP for their rotation while having reduced flexibility in the rest of their roster because they’ve got a guy locked into the DH position.

Exactly. Ohtani isn’t even the best at either position. It’d be like if Pastrnak suddenly started playing goalie and put up a .915 SV%. Being among the best at 2 things is insanely impressive but it doesn’t make you more dominant than someone who is on a much higher level at one of them. You can argue what’s more impressive, but Ohtani just flat out isn’t more dominant. He should be 3rd in the poll

 

[Guided by Veseys]

Will Shohei go down as one of the top 5 baseball players ever? Probably not. McDavid could easily end up top 5 in hockey though by the end of his career.

 

[notbias]

McDavid. People attribute way too much value to the fact that Ohtani both hits and pitches. It’s absolutely incredible that he does both at such a high level, but he’s not more dominant at either of those things compared to his peers than McDavid is compared to his. And the “extra” roster spot he creates isn’t at all useful because his team is just forced to carry an extra SP for their rotation while having reduced flexibility in the rest of their roster because they’ve got a guy locked into the DH position.

Just scoring points does not make one more dominant at hockey, there is a lot more ice to cover.

There is a defensive end and McDavid is not dominating there.

He didn't receive a single Selke vote and he ranked 93rd (51st for forwards) for 5v5 goal% out of players with 1000+ minutes this year despite being so dominant in the offensive end.

McDavid is becoming insanely overrated at this point.

 

[Cas]

I'd replace Bonds with Griffey or young A-Rod on your list. Bonds was a monster his entire career but never played a high-value defensive position (LF is arguably where you stick your worst defender, there or first). Guys like Mays, Bench, Griffey, A-Rod, Trout, etc who were elite hitters at absolute premium positions I would say fit all around. I would call younger Bonds a bad defender by anymeans but he was more of a 3/4 tool guy (Speed, Power, Hit possibly fielding, but if he had a gun he'd be in RF), than a 5 tool stud like Griffey or A-Rod.

Edit: Just to clarify, Bonds was a generational talent for LF, and old Bonds of his like 600 on-base will never be seen again, I don't care how many roids people are doing.

bonds was actually a good center fielder and a phenomenal defensive left fielder. I continue to believe that whoever invented the concept of the five tools did a ton of damage to the discourse of the sport, because they're basically bollocks. Griffey was never on Bonds' level.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

The discussion in here is obviously not about career metrics it's about single season performance. Secondly I never said Ohtani was as good as Ruth offensively I said he was approaching 90% of the offense Ruth provided(on average) and the numbers bare exactly that;

	BA​	OBP​	SLG​	OPS​	OPS+​
Ohtani '23	​ 0.309​	​ 0.389​	​ 0.659​	​ 1.048​	182​
Ruth's averages	​ 0.342​	​ 0.474​	​ 0.690​	​ 1.164​	206​
difference	90%​	82%​	96%​	90%​	88%​

I'm not suggesting he's the greatest baseball player of all time or better than Babe Ruth, your jumping to conclusions there. I said what he's doing is unprecedented and there's little disputing that. Because while Bath Ruth had countless great hitting seasons and several great pitching seasons he never really did both in the same season save for arguably 1919.

You are not using OPS+ correctly here. It is based around 100 being the league average. Meaning Ruth's career is 106% better than league average, while Ohtani is 82% better this season. You can't divide them like you did since you can have a negative OPS+

I'd replace Bonds with Griffey or young A-Rod on your list. Bonds was a monster his entire career but never played a high-value defensive position (LF is arguably where you stick your worst defender, there or first). Guys like Mays, Bench, Griffey, A-Rod, Trout, etc who were elite hitters at absolute premium positions I would say fit all around. I would call younger Bonds a bad defender by anymeans but he was more of a 3/4 tool guy (Speed, Power, Hit possibly fielding, but if he had a gun he'd be in RF), than a 5 tool stud like Griffey or A-Rod.

Edit: Just to clarify, Bonds was a generational talent for LF, and old Bonds of his like 600 on-base will never be seen again, I don't care how many roids people are doing.

Bonds is the best LF defensively ever, "not bad" is an understatement

 

[Cianide]

Come on it's Mahomes. Guy has won multiple championships. What has McDavid or Ohtani won?

 

[Canes]

Exactly. Ohtani isn’t even the best at either position. It’d be like if Pastrnak suddenly started playing goalie and put up a .915 SV%. Being among the best at 2 things is insanely impressive but it doesn’t make you more dominant than someone who is on a much higher level at one of them. You can argue what’s more impressive, but Ohtani just flat out isn’t more dominant. He should be 3rd in the poll

lmao, people like you vastly underestimate how incredible difficult it is to be elite at pitching and hitting in the MLB. Even if McDavid won the Art Ross and Selke, he'd still not be as impressive as what Ohtani has been doing. There hasn't been a player like Ohtani since Babe Ruth over a 100 years ago, and even then it's just Ruth and Ohtani. There are multiple McDavid caliber players in NHL history in half the time.

 

[The Nuge]

lmao, people like you vastly underestimate how incredible difficult it is to be elite at pitching and hitting in the MLB. Even if McDavid won the Art Ross and Selke, he'd still not be as impressive as what Ohtani has been doing. There hasn't been a player like Ohtani since Babe Ruth over a 100 years ago, and even then it's just Ruth and Ohtani. There are multiple McDavid caliber players in NHL history in half the time.

You’re missing the point entirely. It arguably is more impressive. Yes. But he’s not dominating the MLB the way McDavid is dominating the NHL. He’s not the best pitcher or fielder let alone best by a significant margin

 

[Cas]

lmao, people like you vastly underestimate how incredible difficult it is to be elite at pitching and hitting in the MLB. Even if McDavid won the Art Ross and Selke, he'd still not be as impressive as what Ohtani has been doing. There hasn't been a player like Ohtani since Babe Ruth over a 100 years ago, and even then it's just Ruth and Ohtani.

The question is how much value that provides. So far, it's been a ton, but not an unheard of amount, though this season could be historic.

You’re missing the point entirely. It arguably is more impressive. Yes. But he’s not dominating the MLB the way McDavid is dominating the NHL. He’s not the best pitcher or fielder let alone best by a significant margin

No, though this year he's looking to surpass 12 WAR, which is an absurd number. It's not a record, but is is massive - even Bonds never did that.

 

[Connor McConnor]

Come on it's Mahomes. Guy has won multiple championships. What has McDavid or Ohtani won?

Come on it's Steph Curry. Guy has won multiple championships. What has A or B won?

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Mahomes shouldn't even be in this poll......Djokovic should be there in his place

 

[tsujimoto74]

Come on it's Mahomes. Guy has won multiple championships. What has McDavid or Ohtani won?

I didn’t realize this poll was asking which guy played on the best team. I gotta get my eyes checked, I guess.

 

[valet]

ohtani and it’s really not even close

 

[Faceboner]

Who is more dominant between Mahomes and McDavid is for sure Mahomes. McDavid is further ahead of his peers than anyone else in sports currently but the importance of the QB position far outweighs any position in hockey(you could argue goalie i suppose). In football one elite qb can make you a contender in hockey one player has far less of an impact. I also have no idea about baseball so I will not comment on the other fella.

He isn't even the undisputed no.1 qb tho mcdavid is more dominant in his own sport than mahomes

 

[MAB1]

I'm not saying Ruth > Ohtani. I'm saying Ruth was both a good pitcher and a great power hitter, which refutes the claim that Ohtani is the only player in the long history of baseball to do both.

Well technically Ohtani is...Ruth never pitched and hit in the same game, it was one or the other. Ohtani is doing both in a game.

Exactly. Ohtani isn’t even the best at either position. It’d be like if Pastrnak suddenly started playing goalie and put up a .915 SV%. Being among the best at 2 things is insanely impressive but it doesn’t make you more dominant than someone who is on a much higher level at one of them. You can argue what’s more impressive, but Ohtani just flat out isn’t more dominant. He should be 3rd in the poll

He's arguably the best hitter in the AL and would be a the Cy young favourite if the season ended today...what on earth are you talking about?

What Ohtani is doing would be like if McDavid played goalie at Prime Hasek level during the 2nd and 3rd period after scoring a hat-trick in the 1st period.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

McDavid. People attribute way too much value to the fact that Ohtani both hits and pitches. It’s absolutely incredible that he does both at such a high level, but he’s not more dominant at either of those things compared to his peers than McDavid is compared to his. And the “extra” roster spot he creates isn’t at all useful because his team is just forced to carry an extra SP for their rotation while having reduced flexibility in the rest of their roster because they’ve got a guy locked into the DH position.

I might agree if it were “who is most valuable”, but Ohtani dominates baseball more than McD dominates hockey. I suppose you can interpret value and dominance to be the same thing, but I read ‘em differently, and no one has done what Ohtani is doing since Ruth.

Mahomes is a bit of a wildcard to me- he’s very goddamn good, but I also think football requires such organizational/coaching skill that a qb never really stands alone. Tough to judge in comparison to others.

 

[Canes]

You’re missing the point entirely. It arguably is more impressive. Yes. But he’s not dominating the MLB the way McDavid is dominating the NHL. He’s not the best pitcher or fielder let alone best by a significant margin

Dude he's at the top of the whole MLB in OPS while simultaneously being one of the best pitchers as well. McDavid winning the Art Ross and barely putting up a .915 save percentage isn't anything close to what Ohtani is doing. And even then, McDavid would NEVER be anywhere close to putting up a .915 in the NHL if he had to play goalie. This is more about your ignorance of other sports to be honest. But it seems to make you feel better, by all means, go ahead.

 

[Lavar Ball]

McDavid. People attribute way too much value to the fact that Ohtani both hits and pitches. It’s absolutely incredible that he does both at such a high level, but he’s not more dominant at either of those things compared to his peers than McDavid is compared to his. And the “extra” roster spot he creates isn’t at all useful because his team is just forced to carry an extra SP for their rotation while having reduced flexibility in the rest of their roster because they’ve got a guy locked into the DH position.

He's the best hitter in baseball and an all-star level pitcher... it would be like if McDavid played Goalie for the 3rd period and shut them down

 

[Canes]

Well technically Ohtani is...Ruth never pitched and hit in the same game, it was one or the other. Ohtani is doing both in a game.


He's arguably the best hitter in the AL and would be a the Cy young favourite if the season ended today...what on earth are you talking about?

What Ohtani is doing would be like if McDavid played goalie at Prime Hasek level during the 2nd and 3rd period after scoring a hat-trick in the 1st period.

These guys are clueless. We'd be better off not responding.