Who is more dominant in their sport: Ohtani, McDavid or Mahomes?

[Regal]

Ohtani is getting massively overrated by some on here for his uniqueness. He’s very good as both a hitter and pitcher, but he’s not as good at either as some of the very best, even in modern times, and he doesn’t play in the field to add any defensive value. It’s debatable if that’s more valuable than having a transcendent pitcher like peak Pedro or a transcendent hitter like peak old roid Bonds, or a great all around position player like peak Trout (or young Bonds).

His past two years he’s been at 9.0 and 9.6 in combined WAR for his pitching and hitting. Those are fantastic years, but Judge last year had 10.6, and guys like Bonds, Trout, Griffey, Betts, Pujols, ARod, Clemens, Martinez, Johnson and Maddux have had multiple years over 9. This year he’s on pace for 12.5 WAR, which would be one of the best all time, but pace is much harder to project in baseball.

 

[Juxta Position]

Ohtani is a unicorn and is doing what hasn't been done in 100 years, but not because no one else was able to do it before, but because, historically no has been allowed to.

in baseball in North America, when a kid reaches a certain age they either move in to being a position player, or a pitcher usually around age 11 or so and it is usually whatever they are slightly better at. For someone who played ball, i had to make a choice as i was pretty good at hitting and pitching, but i was told i couldn't do both. Kids just don't get the option to continue to do both into their teenage years, it's just not done that way, much like a goalie in hockey. Even Babe Ruth had to give up pitching once he became a Yankee

Someone somewhere in Japan allowed Ohtani to continue to do both and because he is a talented, athletic guy, he's been able to excel at both.

If players had been allowed to do both in North America, from a young age, I think we would've seen somebody come alone like him a long time ago. And I think now, because of him you will see an influx in 10-15 years of players who can do both at a high level.

 

[Lavar Ball]

Ohtani AINEC

 

[Nicko999]

It's Mahomes

Guy won 2 championships already, 2 MVPs, a SB MVP. He's already equalled some all time great like Manning and is on his way to surpass Brady.
The 2nd Super Bowl he won, he did with a shitty receiving core and had to be perfect in the second half on a bad ankle. He literally did not have an incompletion all second half.

While McDavid has the MVPs, he hasn't won shit.

Baseball is not a real sport, so not even gonna consider the other guy.

 

[McFlash97]

Hey, you’re just saying that because he’s on your team!

This isn't about being unique at pitching and hitting. This is about how dominant an in individual is when they are out on the playing surface. It's about the sheer numbers. McDavid by this logic is more dominant. Ohtani is the most unique player in the history of baseball, but does he dominate at those skillset as much as McDavid does at his ? Is Ohtani as good a hitter as McDavid is at generating offense ? He'll no, is he a better pitcher then McDavid is at offense ? Not even close. When you combine the skillset sure Ohtani is more unique and his 2 prong game is just as Impressive. That doesn't mean he is more dominant than 97.

If he was LA would be tearing shxxx up with another player(Trout) on his same team who is just as impressive.

Stick to baseball. Some people trying anything to explain 150 plus points in today's game as less dominant than Ohtani's 15 ranked pitching and 2 HR lead. McDavid also younger and when he was winning scoring races at age 20 Ohtani was nowhere what he is today.

 

[TheStatican]

I think the interesting argument is Ohtani, not because he’s absolutely the best hitter or the best pitcher, but simply he’s so good as both in a way nobody has been EVER. so his dominance is really unique, since it’s in a way nobody else really can dominate.

Fixed that for you.

McDavid is the most dominant male in team sports right smack in the middle of his prime. He is lapping other players at this point.

Thanks for the homer opinion but really Ohtani is in a class of his own at this point.

For instance this month Ohtani has hit 14 homeruns which was the most by a player who also started a game in a month(which is also just one hr away from tying the AL record of 15 for most homeruns in June by anyone ever). Previously Babe Ruth held this unofficial record by hitting 13 homeruns in June 1921. Yes Ruth was a starter that month but he pitched in just ONE GAME and he was actually pretty bad, allowing 5 hits and 7 walks in 5 innings. Ohtani meanwhile started 5 games and pitched at an all-star level caliber.

In total Ruth started TWO games that ENTIRE SEASON pitching just 10 inning in total. Ohtani meanwhile has started 16 games so far and pitched in over 95 innings and we're only halfway through the season.

At the same time Ohtani is the best hitter in the game, approching 90% of the offense Ruth provided. is his edge as big as McDavids? No, but it's not that far off. There is simply no comparison. What he's doing is just so completely mind-boggling, if he can continue this pace to the end of the season I would consider it to be the greatest season by an athlete in the big four North American sports since Bond's record breaking 2001 and yes more impressive than Judge's 62 or McDavids 153.

 

[Moose Head]

Ohtani. It would be like a player being an Art Ross contender and a Vezina caliber goalie at the same time.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Fixed that for you.


Thanks for the homer opinion but really Ohtani is in a class of his own at this point.

For instance this month Ohtani has hit 14 homeruns which was the most by a player who also started a game in a month(which is also just one hr away from tying the AL record of 15 for most homeruns in June by anyone ever). Previously Babe Ruth held this unofficial record by hitting 13 homeruns in June 1921. Yes Ruth was a starter that month but he pitched in just ONE GAME and he was actually pretty bad, allowing 5 hits and 7 walks in 5 innings. Ohtani meanwhile started 5 games and pitched at an all-star level caliber.

In total Ruth started TWO games that ENTIRE SEASON pitching just 10 inning in total. Ohtani meanwhile has started 16 games so far and pitched in over 95 innings and we're only halfway through the season. At the same time Ohtani is the best hitter in the game, approching 90% of the offense Ruth provided. There is simply no comparison. What he's doing is just so completely mind-boggling, if he can continue this pace to the end of the season I would consider it to be the greatest season by an athlete in the big four North American sports since Bond's record breaking 2001 and yes more impressive than Judge's 62 or McDavids 153.

Um what?

I love the player but there is so much hyperbole in this thread about his performance. He's a great player and historically unique, but not historically great yet.

 

[TheStatican]

Um what?

I love the player but there is so much hyperbole in this thread about his performance. He's a great player and historically unique, but not historically great yet.

I just provided a very specific example of an actual achievement he accomplished which indisputably far superseded the previous best and in response you provided... an opinion? Ok.

 

[elitepete]

Who is more dominant between Mahomes and McDavid is for sure Mahomes. McDavid is further ahead of his peers than anyone else in sports currently but the importance of the QB position far outweighs any position in hockey(you could argue goalie i suppose). In football one elite qb can make you a contender in hockey one player has far less of an impact. I also have no idea about baseball so I will not comment on the other fella.

Disagree. QB is only there for half the game.

 

[holy]

Hey, you’re just saying that because he’s on your team!

I don’t think he’s a fan of McDavid, pretty rude to assume he is.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Question isn’t more important. It’s more dominant. If I needed to win a championship, and could start a hockey team with mcdavid or a football team with mahomes, sure I’ll take mahomes.

But mcdavid is unquestionably more dominant, with a larger gap to his peers both currently and historically. Relative importance to winning a championship doesn’t change that.

I think the interesting argument is Ohtani, not because he’s absolutely the best hitter or the best pitcher, but simply he’s so good as both in a way nobody has been in a century, basically. so his dominance is really unique, since it’s in a way nobody else really can dominate.

I would have to think there's a higher ceiling in hockey in terms of how much better someone's stats can be compared to their peers though.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I just provided a very specific example of an actual achievement he accomplished which indisputably far superseded the previous best and in response you provided... an opinion? Ok.

Ruth had 13 seasons with a higher OPS than Ohtani does in 2023. In some cases far higher.

I would have to think there's a higher ceiling in hockey in terms of how much better someone's stats can be compared to their peers though.

I would agree, except for the fact that Barry Bonds existed.

 

[JianYang]

Ohtani. To pitch and bat at such a high level is insane.

I don't follow MLB but when I hear someone doing this, I think of a guy like bo Jackson.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Ruth had 13 seasons with a higher OPS than Ohtani does in 2023. In some cases far higher.


I would agree, except for the fact that Barry Bonds existed.

Whoops was comparing hockey to football. I don't know enough about baseball. I do think what Ohtani is doing is cool.

 

[Regal]

Fixed that for you.


Thanks for the homer opinion but really Ohtani is in a class of his own at this point.

For instance this month Ohtani has hit 14 homeruns which was the most by a player who also started a game in a month(which is also just one hr away from tying the AL record of 15 for most homeruns in June by anyone ever). Previously Babe Ruth held this unofficial record by hitting 13 homeruns in June 1921. Yes Ruth was a starter that month but he pitched in just ONE GAME and he was actually pretty bad, allowing 5 hits and 7 walks in 5 innings. Ohtani meanwhile started 5 games and pitched at an all-star level caliber.

In total Ruth started TWO games that ENTIRE SEASON pitching just 10 inning in total. Ohtani meanwhile has started 16 games so far and pitched in over 95 innings and we're only halfway through the season.

At the same time Ohtani is the best hitter in the game, approching 90% of the offense Ruth provided. is his edge as big as McDavids? No, but it's not that far off. There is simply no comparison. What he's doing is just so completely mind-boggling, if he can continue this pace to the end of the season I would consider it to be the greatest season by an athlete in the big four North American sports since Bond's record breaking 2001 and yes more impressive than Judge's 62 or McDavids 153.

Most home runs in a month by a player who pitched is such a specific stat that it doesnt mean much in terms of value relative to other players. It doesn’t in itself mean he’s been more valuable than players who have had better hitting months who haven’t also pitched.

As for his comparison to Ruth, his OPS+ this year is currently 182, which is very good and leads the MLB. It’s nothing special though compared to best hitting seasons of all time. Ruth’s best was an OPS+ of 255. Ohtani would only be 70% of that. Similarly, he has a 3.7 offensive WAR this year, which projects to 7.5 over a full season. Again, very good, but Ruth had years of 12.3 and 12.2, which Ohtani would only be a bit over 60% as good as.

This is also only half a year and a better season offensively than Ohtani’s previous two. Last year he finished outside the top 10 in both OPS+ and offensive WAR and the year before he was 5th in OPS+ but outside the top 10 in offensive WAR.

If he does continue his pace this year, I would agree it would probably be the best season since roided out Bonds, but by the same token, McDavid’s is the best season since Lemieux in the 90s. I think pace is also tough to project in baseball, as highs and lows tend to be more pronounced than for the other major sports

 

[TheStatican]

Ruth had 13 seasons with a higher OPS than Ohtani does in 2023. In some cases far higher.

The discussion in here is obviously not about career metrics it's about single season performance. Secondly I never said Ohtani was as good as Ruth offensively I said he was approaching 90% of the offense Ruth provided(on average) and the numbers bare exactly that;

	BA​	OBP​	SLG​	OPS​	OPS+​
Ohtani '23	0.309​	0.389​	0.659​	1.048​	182​
Ruth's averages	0.342​	0.474​	0.690​	1.164​	206​
difference	90%​	82%​	96%​	90%​	88%​

I'm not suggesting he's the greatest baseball player of all time or better than Babe Ruth, your jumping to conclusions there. I said what he's doing is unprecedented and there's little disputing that. Because while Bath Ruth had countless great hitting seasons and several great pitching seasons he never really did both in the same season save for arguably 1919.

 

[Regal]

The discussion in here is obviously not about career metrics it's about single season performance. Secondly I never said Ohtani was as good as Ruth offensively I said he was approaching 90% of the offense Ruth provided(on average) and the numbers bare exactly that;

	BA​	OBP​	SLG​	OPS​	OPS+​
Ohtani '23	​ 0.309​	​ 0.389​	​ 0.659​	​ 1.048​	182​
Ruth's averages	​ 0.342​	​ 0.474​	​ 0.690​	​ 1.164​	206​
difference	90%​	82%​	96%​	90%​	88%​

I'm not suggesting he's the greatest baseball player of all time or better than Babe Ruth, your jumping to conclusions there. I said what he's doing is unprecedented and there's little disputing that. Because while Bath Ruth had countless great hitting seasons and several great pitching seasons he never really did both in the same season save for arguably 1919.

Why would you use a half season from Ohtani to compare him to the averages of a 22 year career? That’s like saying McDavid is as good as Lemieux because his 1.87 PPG this year is near equal to Lemieux’s career 1.88

 

[TheStatican]

As for his comparison to Ruth, his OPS+ this year is currently 182, which is very good and leads the MLB. It’s nothing special though compared to best hitting seasons of all time. Ruth’s best was an OPS+ of 255. Ohtani would only be 70% of that. Similarly, he has a 3.7 offensive WAR this year, which projects to 7.5 over a full season. Again, very good, but Ruth had years of 12.3 and 12.2, which Ohtani would only be a bit over 60% as good as.

Yes I'm well aware there's specific seasons where Ruth produced far more offensive than on average.

Why would you use a half season from Ohtani to compare him to the averages of a 22 year career?

I said he provided a mark approaching 90% of Ruth's Offense. Sure if we look at Ruth's peak seasons Ohtani's numbers fall further down to a range around 70%, fair enough. But it's not exactly an apples to apples' comparisons to begin with is it.

Was Ruth competing against all the best available players? No. Was the baseball talent pool as deep as it was in the 1920's as it is in the 2020's? No. (while I have you here, do you actually think Babe Ruth would be slugging .847 with an OPS of 1.379 in today's game??) How to we make adjustments for all this? Who knows. Which brings me to the point - it was a generalization and not meant to be a comparison to a specific season, hence the use of averages.

This is also only half a year and a better season offensively than Ohtani’s previous two. Last year he finished outside the top 10 in both OPS+ and offensive WAR and the year before he was 5th in OPS+ but outside the top 10 in offensive WAR.

Yup that's why I said "if he can continue this pace to the end of the season..."
This season just feels different for him than last, but we'll know soon enough if he can maintain it.

McDavid’s is the best season since Lemieux in the 90s. I think pace is also tough to project in baseball, as highs and lows tend to be more pronounced than for the other major sports

Absolutely, I don't disagree that McDavid's season is the best since 95-96 Lemieux.

McDavid's 64 & 153 totals rank as the 25th and 15th highest off all time. Some say this underrates his performance, certainly I would rank it as better than say Yzerman's '89 and a couple of Gretzky's seasons that had higher point totals. But those people are also forgetting about Bobby Orr. While Orr didn't provide as much offensive as McDavid, Orr provided so much more defensively just as Ohtani is providing so much more on the pitching side than Ruth did in all of his best offensive seasons. That's not to say that Ohtani's season is better than Ruth's best seasons, but it is approaching that range and more to the point of all of this - he's doing it in a way that has never been done before half hitting, half pitching.

Othani currently has a combined hitting an pitching WAR of 6.4 halfway through the season, only 5 times has anyone ever had a WAR over 12 in a season. IF he manages to maintain this pace there absolutely will be a strong argument for it being a top 10 all time season. As good as McDavid was, it wasn't quite a top-10 all time season.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Disagree. QB is only there for half the game.

That's more than an NHL forward. Also, a good QB would be there for more than half the game.

 

[Regal]

Yes I'm well aware there's specific seasons where Ruth produced far more offensive than on average.


I said he provided a mark approaching 90% of Ruth's Offense. Sure if we look at Ruth's peak seasons Ohtani's numbers fall further down to a range around 70%, fair enough. But it's not exactly an apples to apples' comparisons to begin with is it.

Was Ruth competing against all the best available players? No. Was the baseball talent pool as deep as it was in the 1920's as it is in the 2020's? No. (while I have you here, do you actually think Babe Ruth would be slugging .847 with an OPS of 1.379 in today's game??) How to we make adjustments for all this? Who knows. Which brings me to the point - it was a generalization and not meant to be a comparison to a specific season, hence the use of averages.


Yup that's why I said "if he can continue this pace to the end of the season..."
This season just feels different for him than last, but we'll know soon enough if he can maintain it.


Absolutely, I don't disagree that McDavid's season is the best since 95-96 Lemieux.

McDavid's 64 & 153 totals rank as the 25th and 15th highest off all time. Some say this underrates his performance, certainly I would rank it as better than say Yzerman's '89 and a couple of Gretzky's seasons that had higher point totals. But those people are also forgetting about Bobby Orr. While Orr didn't provide as much offensive as McDavid, Orr provided so much more defensively just as Ohtani is providing so much more on the pitching side than Ruth did in all of his best offensive seasons. That's not to say that Ohtani's season is better than Ruth's best seasons, but it is approaching that range and more to the point of all of this - he's doing it in a way that has never been done before half hitting, half pitching.

Othani currently has a combined hitting an pitching WAR of 6.4 halfway through the season, only 5 times has anyone ever had a WAR over 12 in a season. IF he manages to maintain this pace there absolutely will be a strong argument for it being a top 10 all time season. As good as McDavid was, it wasn't quite a top-10 all time season.

I do think we need to put Ruth’s numbers in context given the era, but they’re so much more dominant that I don’t think it matters. I still don’t see why we’d use averages for him, since we’re talking about a single season from Ohtani that is above the rest of his career. I don’t believe the averages is an appropriate way to account for era, especially since OPS+ already attempts to correct for era. Meanwhile Ohtani has a 182 OPS+ and since 1980, there’s been 45 seasons of 180 or better OPS+. It’s good but it’s roughly on par with the best offensive year in an average season, not anything special. I agree that his pitching makes it special, but I was just trying to put his offense in context.

I do think if he can continue his season, it will certainly be up there, though there’s actually been 44 seasons of 12 WAR, including Roger Clemens in 1997, though admittedly most of those are from the 1800s and early 1900s.

 

[Sun God Nika]

As someone who makes a side income from sports wagering.

McDavid has more of an impact on his game than the other two.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

We haven’t seen a baseball player like Ohtani in a literal century.

So that’s the correct answer. And there’s really no debate.

 

[TheStatican]

I do think we need to put Ruth’s numbers in context given the era, but they’re so much more dominant that I don’t think it matters. I still don’t see why we’d use averages for him, since we’re talking about a single season from Ohtani that is above the rest of his career. I don’t believe the averages is an appropriate way to account for era, especially since OPS+ already attempts to correct for era. Meanwhile Ohtani has a 182 OPS+ and since 1980, there’s been 45 seasons of 180 or better OPS+. It’s good but it’s roughly on par with the best offensive year in an average season, not anything special. I agree that his pitching makes it special, but I was just trying to put his offense in context.

OPS+ also has some faults that aren't initially evident though. As you noted Ohtani's mark of 182 is nothing earth shattering, but OPS+ makes a comparison against the league as a whole and not against the top players. Perhaps it's best if I show an example of what I mean.

Take for instance the last couple seasons a player has lead the league with an 182 OPS - Trout in '19 and Bautista in '11 vs Ohtani this year;

In 2011 3 players had an OPS+ above 170, 4 above 165 and 6 above 160
In 2019 2 players had an OPS+ above 170, 4 above 165 and 5 above 160
This year just 1 player has an OPS+ above 165 never mind 170 and 3 above 160
(though I suppose a healthy Judge would make that 2, 2 and 4 but that's still less than the norm here)

For some reason the difference between the leagues top players and the average player in the league today is much smaller than in past years. Meaning it's much more difficult and less likely for someone to be an outliner in today's environment that in past years. If only baseball had a stat like VsX. Certainly his numbers still wouldn't be any where near the VsX that say Ruth would've had in his day, but I think they would show that Ohtani's offensive performance is a bit more impressive than it seems considering the clear gap between him and the rest of the best vs many of the other seasons where a player had an OPS around 182.

I do think if he can continue his season, it will certainly be up there, though there’s actually been 44 seasons of 12 WAR, including Roger Clemens in 1997, though admittedly most of those are from the 1800s and early 1900s.

True, that does knock him down quite a bit. But aside from some of the more modern pitcher on that list like Clemens, Gooden and Carlton I'm sure you'd agree most don't take those WAR numbers seriously.


Edit* I must admit I'm not entirely confident he can keep this up... Right now he's dominating his sport in a way that few players in any league have. But yes indeed, as some of you have noted baseball players do seem to be more prone to slumping. Judge last year was very consistent but even he did have that little mini-blip right at the end there where it looked like he might not get 62. It'll be interesting to see if Ohtani can stave off or at least limit the almost inevitable slump/late season fatigue that hits even the best players in that sport.

 

[93LEAFS]

Ohtani is getting massively overrated by some on here for his uniqueness. He’s very good as both a hitter and pitcher, but he’s not as good at either as some of the very best, even in modern times, and he doesn’t play in the field to add any defensive value. It’s debatable if that’s more valuable than having a transcendent pitcher like peak Pedro or a transcendent hitter like peak old roid Bonds, or a great all around position player like peak Trout (or young Bonds).

His past two years he’s been at 9.0 and 9.6 in combined WAR for his pitching and hitting. Those are fantastic years, but Judge last year had 10.6, and guys like Bonds, Trout, Griffey, Betts, Pujols, ARod, Clemens, Martinez, Johnson and Maddux have had multiple years over 9. This year he’s on pace for 12.5 WAR, which would be one of the best all time, but pace is much harder to project in baseball.

I'd replace Bonds with Griffey or young A-Rod on your list. Bonds was a monster his entire career but never played a high-value defensive position (LF is arguably where you stick your worst defender, there or first). Guys like Mays, Bench, Griffey, A-Rod, Trout, etc who were elite hitters at absolute premium positions I would say fit all around. I would call younger Bonds a bad defender by anymeans but he was more of a 3/4 tool guy (Speed, Power, Hit possibly fielding, but if he had a gun he'd be in RF), than a 5 tool stud like Griffey or A-Rod.

Edit: Just to clarify, Bonds was a generational talent for LF, and old Bonds of his like 600 on-base will never be seen again, I don't care how many roids people are doing.