Who are your Top 10 Forwards next season?

[WetcoastOrca]

If playoffs included:

1) Connor McDavid
2) Leon Draisaitl
3) Nathan MacKinnon
4) Nikita Kucherov
5) David Pastrnak
6) Auston Matthews
7) Aleksander Barkov
8) Matthew Tkachuk
9) J. T. Miller
10a) Tim Stützle (my wild guess, could end up not being in the top 20 as well, but I have the feeling he could crack the 100 points next year if healthy)
10b) Mikko Rantanen

If the playoffs are included Barkov moves up to number 2 imo.

 

[IdleTraveller]

I don't see any subjective award as a guarantee a player is top 10 at their position. Of course it's likely they are but there are always exceptions, even with Hart I am not certain I would have had Hall in my top 10 for forwards the season after. Selke is certainly a step down, if not two, from Hart. Art Ross/Richard are objective stats based awards and a clearer indication in my mind.

Can't remember the seasons other players had around the time Kopitar/Toews got their Selke's well enough to tell if they were top 10 or not.

Now Barkov? He is fringe top 10 for me, certainly behind McDavid, Draisaitl, Kucherov, MacKinnon, Matthews, Pastrnak and then there is a group of like 5-10 players that's interchangeable. If Barkov and, say, Kaprizov switched teams I am not so certain that Panthers would suffer.

Fair enough in terms of your opinion. Although my opinion in life more generally is that just because something is easier to measure, doesn't always make it the best way to measure impact. But that's probably bringing too much real life into hockey conversations... Very little argument on the greatness of the players you list, but obviously I would rate Barkov slightly higher than you do. Just don't threaten to replace him with Kaprizov: as good as that player is, you'll be taking away the Panther's beating heart ;-).

 

[IdleTraveller]

It's pretty common for Selke award winners.

Very few Selke winners are among the league-leaders in offence (because they sacrifice offence for defence?) and it's still fairly subjective to judge a player's defensive contributions. It's getting better with advanced stats but the team defence/goaltending/overall performance can all have a pretty major impact.

As a reputational award, it can take awhile for the media to recognize a player's defensive play, and even then, there's a sort of PPG threshold that generally has to be met even before being considered for the award.

Similar to the Norris trophy, you don't have defensively focused forwards winning it very often anymore (since the early 2000s with Madden, Draper, Peca), so it becomes this "does he have enough points to be considered and how long has he been recognized for his two-way play" kind of award.

The same debate with Barkov happened with Kopitar and Bergeron, depending on how much the individual values their two-way performance and how much their defensive abilities offset the discrepancy in offence.

That makes sense - thanks. Watching breakdowns of Barkov's play has been my gateway drug into hockey - it's make me really appreciate the sport and how fascinating it can be. But yes, it's not obviously as immediately grabbing as those fun highlight reel goals! I just find Barkov really interesting because he most definitely has the skills to become an offensive juggernaut (he can be downright filthy), but something about the way he's wired means he can't make himself not do the "right play" for the situation, even when he sacrifices offense to do so. I've been watching a few breakdowns into Bergeron's play which has been really interesting as well, and made me wish I watched a lot more of him in his prime.

I do think it ways something looking at cup winners/contenders that so many of them had Selke calibre forwards on their team. Not sure if that causation or correlation here though. I'm sure there's probably some threads here on HF boards on that which I need to hunt down!

 

[ameselare]

I do think it ways something looking at cup winners/contenders that so many of them had Selke calibre forwards on their team. Not sure if that causation or correlation here though. I'm sure there's probably some threads here on HF boards on that which I need to hunt down!

If you win a cup you do so by going against some of the top offensive talents in the league and winning many of those matchups. Selke-calibre forwards definitely help with that

 

[Horvat1C]

1) McDavid
--------------
2) Kucherov
3) MacKinnon
4) Draisaitl
5) Matthews
6) Barkov
-----------
7) Crosby
8) Pastrnak
9) Eichel
10) Kaprisov

Rantanen, M. Tkachuk, Nylander, Point

 

[5 14 6 1]

Miller is comfortably on this list, and that's non negotiable

I would agree. He's easily in the 12-8 range imo

 

[psycat]

I would agree. He's easily in the 12-8 range imo

So then you don't agree? If he is "comfortably" in the top 10 he wouldn't be in the 12th range whatsoever.

 

[Snap]

In no order

Crosby
McDavid
Matthews
Draisaitl
Barkov
MacKinnon
Kucherov
Pastrnak
Rantanen
Panarin

 

[PensandCaps]

lol, WIlliam freaking Nylander but non Crosby. truly deluded.

 

[McPoyle]

McDavid
MacKinnon
Kucherov
Draisaitl
Matthews
Panarin
Barkov
Pastrnak
Rantanen
Hughes

In no order

Crosby
McDavid
Matthews
Draisaitl
Barkov
MacKinnon
Kucherov
Pastrnak
Rantanen
Panarin

Same as me if you swap Crosby and Hughes.

Miller is comfortably on this list, and that's non negotiable

Nah, hes top 20 for sure but borderline top 10. I have him around 15ish.

 

[nucks88]

McDavid
MacKinnon
Kucherov
Draisaitl
Matthews
Panarin
Barkov
Pastrnak
Rantanen
Hughes


Same as me if you swap Crosby and Hughes.


Nah, hes top 20 for sure but borderline top 10. I have him around 15ish.

Funny, Miller is number 10 in total points over the last three seasons…14 behind Matthews……must be the new math…

 

[Ace of Hades]

1) McDavid
2) MacKinnon
3) Kucherov
4) Pastrnak
5) Draisaitl
6) Matthews
7) Barkov
8) J.T Miller
9) Panarin
10) Crosby
Ex: Kaprizov, Rantanen, Pettersson, Hughes, Point, Eichel

 

[McPoyle]

Funny, Miller is number 10 in total points over the last three seasons…14 behind Matthews……must be the new math…

I didn't realize that the top 10 forwards was just the top 10 in points.

Miller is 15th in ppg and 19th in ESP if you consider a 3 year sample the be all end all. Bit of a powerplay merchant it seems.

 

[strattonius]

I didn't realize that the top 10 forwards was just the top 10 in points.

Miller is 15th in ppg and 19th in ESP if you consider a 3 year sample the be all end all. Bit of a powerplay merchant it seems.

I wouldn't put him in a top 10 list but saying Miller is a PP merchant is ludicrously stupid. He's an excellent 2 way C.

 

[McPoyle]

I wouldn't put him in a top 10 list but saying Miller is a PP merchant is ludicrously stupid. He's an excellent 2 way C.

Firstly I don't use PP merchant as an insult, its a great skill to score on special teams.

Secondly over the last 3 years hes 8th in PPP, and 19th in ESP. He gets an outsized amount of his points from the powerplay compared to the other top 10 scorers in the last 3 years.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Top of my head:

1. McDavid
2. MacKinnon
3. Kucherov
4. Draisaitl
5. Matthews
6. Pastrnak
7. Barkov
8. Panarin
T-9. Rantanen, M. Tkachuk, JT Miller

HM bc I like the player a lot: Marner

The conclusion here is how absolutely spoiled we are to watch these guys.

 

[strattonius]

Firstly I don't use PP merchant as an insult, its a great skill to score on special teams.

Secondly over the last 3 years hes 8th in PPP, and 19th in ESP. He gets an outsized amount of his points from the powerplay compared to the other top 10 scorers in the last 3 years.

8th in PP and 19th in ES is barely a gap at all. That's not an 'outsized' amount.

It's just improper terminology for JT Miller IMO. PP merchant insinuates a one dimensional player from my understanding.

 

[letsgrowcactus]

coping so hard you're making up terms lmao. Barkov is the only forward on these lists whose value depends on how well his goalie plays.

they're not my lists

The Conn Smythe voters overwhelmingly disagree with you.

Barkov was the clear n.2 in the vote (15/17 voters had him as n.2 on their ballot, one had him at n.3). Bob finished 4th (behind Forsling), with just one first place vote and three third place votes.

 

[Leafs87]

Seeing a lot of people questioning lists that don’t have Crosby. He’ll be 37. Do people really think with no support cast and at 37 he’ll be a top 10 forward?

 

[nucks88]

I didn't realize that the top 10 forwards was just the top 10 in points.

Miller is 15th in ppg and 19th in ESP if you consider a 3 year sample the be all end all. Bit of a powerplay merchant it seems.

1	Nikita KucherovTB
2	Nathan MacKinnonCOL
3	Connor McDavidEDM
4	Artemi PanarinNYR
5	David PastrnakBOS
6	Auston MatthewsTOR
7	Leon DraisaitlEDM
8	Mikko RantanenCOL
9	J.T. MillerVAN
10	William NylanderTOR

And yet your list has 8 of the top ten total points scorers....

It's all good....the margins are slim and choices are subjective..

 

[CanadienShark]

In a very rough order:

1. McDavid
2. Kucherov
3. MacKinnon
4. Draisaitl
5. Matthews
6. Pastrnak
7. Barkov
8. Kaprizov
9. Tkachuk
10. Hughes

I'm ranking on expectations, not currently based on last season.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Not to say he'll necessarily repeat this ridiculous pace - but Jack Hughes had 20pts in his first 9 games last year before he fell hard into the boards and sustained a nasty shoulder injury. He's now had surgery and should be back to full health for the first time since. He was also 12th in points as a 21yr old the year before.

He should be on everyone's list unless you're worried the surgery will have a negative impact. I only mention it because he's on less lists than I'd have thought he would/should be.

 

[KevinRedkey]

The Conn Smythe voters overwhelmingly disagree with you.

Barkov was the clear n.2 in the vote (15/17 voters had him as n.2 on their ballot, one had him at n.3). Bob finished 4th (behind Forsling), with just one first place vote and three third place votes.

Among Panthers players, Bob was generally ranked #1 in Vegas odds for the Smythe throughout the entire playoffs. If he slipped to #2 at any point, is wasn't for long, and it certainly wasn't the case after games 1-2-3 of the finals.

Everyone then blamed Bob for the losses in games 4-5-6. The next best Panther up to that point was Barkov, so he became the defacto 'nominee' unless someone else stole the spotlight, which no one did. Funny thing is, Barkov went -6 and scored 1 measly point in those 3 losses. He also went pointless in game 7, so it's not like he leapfrogged Bob because of impressive play. He ended up getting the most Smythe votes among Panthers players because Bob was the whipping boy for the entire team that played poorly.

It became quite clear after games 4-5-6 that Florida couldn't win unless someone else stepped up, or Bob stood on his head like he did in games 1-2-3. That didn't really happen, so the Panthers entire team was commited to playing defensive hockey in game 7, which got them the W and the cup. It was truly a team effort, and their only true standout at any point was Bob - for better or for worse.

IMO It was more of a 'Bob lost the vote' than it was 'Barkov won it'.

 

[Tupu]

When it comes to two-way forwards, they are actually useful even without scoring, but pure scorers are useless if they dont get on the boards and quite often harms their own team.

 

[TheOrangeDesk]

I thought we could retire the very tired "Barkov is the most underrated player" nonsense with him not only winning his second Selke but also being the best player in a team that JUST won the Cup. But alas, apparently not if he can't make a list of top ten forwards in the league... Oh well.

Now the most overrated player in the league