Which team has a better rebuild? Habs vs Red Wings?

[Perfect_Drug]

STL and Vegas recently. Carolina, LA before.

Suzuki should get Selke contention for the rest of his career, hes probably finishing no worse than 5 this year. Hes been a clear top 3 this year, pretty close with Barkov himself. He probably doesnt have the pedigree and team results to be a nomination but thats clearly going to change in the future.

St.L - Selke /Norris Nominee
Vegas - Selke Nominee / norris nominee
Carolina - 2x Selke Winner
LA - Norris / Selke

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Unfortunately not all franchises can bottom out until they have a guaranteed 100 point player in the draft. Some have to rebuild by making smart hockey moves around their reconstruction.

All cup champs need smart hockey moves to rebuild. But franchises who doesnt get a franchise player during their rebuild tend to fade back to another rebuild instead of having a legit window.

 

[archangel2]

whomever solves their goaltending longer term in the good sense. Habs have a couple of guys who could be good but are still developing and the red wings are still looking for their goalie..

But long term? The habs have nabbed a few good young D men in the draft that I believe if developed properly will be a solid top 4 and the habs have some interesting guys up front that are all 24 and under. The Wings have relied heavily on vets they brought in and my question is the over reliance on them hurting the developing Red Wings, while not rushing their kids I think are using too many vets during their rebuild

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

All cup champs need smart hockey moves to rebuild. But franchises who doesnt get a franchise player during their rebuild tend to fade back to another rebuild instead of having a legit window.

that's fine , teams like Montreal just can't keep tanking forever because of the fanbase it is what it is ,this is only year two of our rebuild if the success of an entire organisation is solely based on lottery balls and getting a good first overall than I guess only the Leafs Avs or Edmonton can ever win the cup. Montreal will find other means to acquire what we need if its not through the draft.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

that's fine , teams like Montreal just can't keep tanking forever because of the fanbase it is what it is ,this is only year two of our rebuild if the success of an entire organisation is solely based on lottery balls and getting a good first overall than I guess only the Leafs Avs or Edmonton can ever win the cup. Montreal will find other means to acquire what we need if its not through the draft.

Not only mack, mcdavid but you'd also need a makar and rantanen which montreal wont have either.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Not only mack, mcdavid but you'd also need a makar and rantanen which montreal wont have either.

If only we had the privileges of being in a non hockey market that can just put 5-6 seasons down the drain to accumulate high picks , oh well

 

[Winger74]

Pretty much this…Right now Detroit is well on it’s way to ‘Minnesota Mediocrity’ where we will be an above average team that’ll make the playoffs 2 or 3 seasons out of 5 and likely lose in the 1st round.

I couldn't have said it better, a perfect metaphor with Wild

 

[FMichael]

I couldn't have said it better, a perfect metaphor with Wild

Yeah - I feel bad for Wild fans… And am gloomy about the fact that we’re heading in that same direction…Not that it’s really either teams’ fault per say - just that without lottery luck and/or generational talent on the roster it’s tough to get far in to the postseason.

 

[goldnblack]

Wait, how is this a thread?

Detroit is within 2 pts of a playoff spot with a game in hand. They're in the top 10 in GF/P. They have a pile of cap space and are in a market far more likely to attract free agents. Both teams have two first rounders in the next draft (I get that Montreal also has two 2's and two 3's).

This is a thread if we compare Ottawa and Montreal. THAT, is a discussion.

 

[rahad]

Wait, how is this a thread?

Detroit is within 2 pts of a playoff spot with a game in hand. They're in the top 10 in GF/P. They have a pile of cap space and are in a market far more likely to attract free agents. Both teams have two first rounders in the next draft (I get that Montreal also has two 2's and two 3's).

This is a thread if we compare Ottawa and Montreal. THAT, is a discussion.

Montreal also started the rebuild in 2022. Way to early to compare.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

If only we had the privileges of being in a non hockey market that can just put 5-6 seasons down the drain to accumulate high picks , oh well

Ya you just accumulate 2-3 seasons of fail, build a pretender and then accumulate another 1-2 seasons rinse and repeat. Just look at montreal for the past 30 years.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Pretty much this…Right now Detroit is well on it’s way to ‘Minnesota Mediocrity’ where we will be an above average team that’ll make the playoffs 2 or 3 seasons out of 5 and likely lose in the 1st round.

Trying to predict the future is pointless. Chicago has Bedard and can you safely say they will become a contender and not a mediocre team or a team struggling to get out of their rebuild? Everyone talked up the Devils going into the season with their high end talent and where are they? Buffalo's been destined for greatness for a decade and counting.

Thing about being mediocre is that a few small steps seperate you from either being good or bad. Even this season Detroit would easily be a solidified playoff team if they had more reliable goaltending and 1 or 2 more good d-men instead of Petry/Holl/Määttä. Goaltending and defense are the strongest parts of their prospect pool. So why this "destined for mediocrity" feeling?

Habs prospects are better, id say it's a wash and wouldn't be suprised if both are great teams sooner than later

It's not gospel but Wheeler ranked Wings pool 2nd and Habs pool 10th recently.

2024 NHL prospect pool rankings: Scott Wheeler's annual countdown

Scott Wheeler's annual deep dive into every NHL team's collection of prospects.

theathletic.com

At minimum they are in the same tier. Habs will add a higher pick this year though which goes to the whole difficulty of comparing teams on such different timelines.

You don't realise how far behind you are until you line up your sub-PPG 1C against the reigning Hart /Art Ross winner backed by a Dman with a Norris, and hope to basically land 16 upset wins in the playoffs.

How many Harts/Art Rosses does Eichel have? How many Norrises for Pietrangelo/Theodore? How many cups for McDavid?

The Wings have relied heavily on vets they brought in and my question is the over reliance on them hurting the developing Red Wings, while not rushing their kids I think are using too many vets during their rebuild

The flip side of that is that their AHL team is successful and that's driven by their prospects. And when prospects are brought up, there's a better environment to step into. I'm not sure a veteran-heavy AHL roster and a prospect-heavy (and bad) NHL roster is better situation.

 

[FMichael]

Trying to predict the future is pointless. Chicago has Bedard and can you safely say they will become a contender and not a mediocre team or a team struggling to get out of their rebuild? Everyone talked up the Devils going into the season with their high end talent and where are they? Buffalo's been destined for greatness for a decade and counting.

Thing about being mediocre is that a few small steps seperate you from either being good or bad. Even this season Detroit would easily be a solidified playoff team if they had more reliable goaltending and 1 or 2 more good d-men instead of Petry/Holl/Määttä. Goaltending and defense are the strongest parts of their prospect pool. So why this "destined for mediocrity" feeling?

On the bright side we got Charlie Manson in GR...

 

[Perfect_Drug]

How many Harts/Art Rosses does Eichel have? How many Norrises for Pietrangelo/Theodore? How many cups for McDavid?

Vegas has a Selke finalist and a Norris finalist.

I mean your last cup win was with a multiple Selke winner and a multiple Norris Winner.
(Zetterberg was also a Selke finalist himself).

You ought to know what a contender looks like. It really wasn't THAT long ago. And it sure as hell wasn't built around the 15th best center in the league.


Your last finals appearance was back to back against 2x Art Ross/Rocket/Hart winners / Norris finalist.

 

[MNRube]

Yeah - I feel bad for Wild fans… And am gloomy about the fact that we’re heading in that same direction…Not that it’s really either teams’ fault per say - just that without lottery luck and/or generational talent on the roster it’s tough to get far in to the postseason.

You should probably feel worse for your own team. Wild have had a relevant team every year for the last decade while the Wings have been a bottom feeder. During that time, Minnesota has accumulated just as much young talent too

Kap, Boldy, JEE, Brodin, Faber, Rossi, Yurov, Wallstedt is a solid core. Keep in mind that group has had 20% of their cap space wasted and that’s coming to an end. No chance I swap our roster & prospects for Detroits.

 

[Auston Marlander]

As of today I'd say the Red Wings. However until either of them make playoffs/start winning neither have a good rebuild going.

 

[Voight]

Habs for sure, especially after they draft a player with their top 7 pick

In a few years, this is what I envision the habs lineup to look like

Caufield - Suzuki - Slafkovsky
Roy - Dach - Lindstrom
Newhook - Beck - Farrell/Mesar
Tuch - Xhekaj - Kapanen/Heineman

Hutson - Reinbacher
Guhle - Mailloux
Xhekaj - Engstrom

Montebeault/Primeau/Dobes
Fowler

You do realize not every prospect (including their 1st round pick this year) is guaranteed to develop into an NHL player?

 

[Voight]

I mean I expect him and Suzuki to be very close to Barkov. Whats the real difference? Would Barkov be a ~90 ish guy if he wasnt on a stacked team? He was producing at similar levels as the other two before the stack happened in Florida.

I agree that neither are in the superstar category of the first 4 you listed, but thats not elite, thats like cream of the crop. Its like a select 5-6 players, you dont need one of those to win.

 

[canuckslover10]

Dach is also a key. If he keeps going on IR. Suzuki has no help down the middle.

Well we have to see who they pick with their 1st this year, that issue can definitely be fixed.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

that's fine , teams like Montreal just can't keep tanking forever because of the fanbase it is what it is ,this is only year two of our rebuild if the success of an entire organisation is solely based on lottery balls and getting a good first overall than I guess only the Leafs Avs or Edmonton can ever win the cup. Montreal will find other means to acquire what we need if its not through the draft.

Rags got elite talent through being among the most desired place a star athlete wants to play.

Panarin + Fox fell into their laps.

 

[sxvnert]

Habs and Wings rebuilds suffer from the same issue. The refusal to tank for top tier talent.

Habs did it once for Slafkovsky (knowing full well he wasn't an elite talent) then stopped before 2023 when they could have had Bedard, Carlsson or Fantilli.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Montreal should have rebuilt years ago. It’s the typical Canadian team mentality of trying to sneak into the playoffs ‘where anything can happen’ instead of sitting down and methodically plotting out a rebuild that leads to being a legitimate contender. I think they’ll likely have to bottom out again and rebuild in a couple of years to acquire top end talent.

 

[sxvnert]

Montreal should have rebuilt years ago. It’s the typical Canadian team mentality of trying to sneak into the playoffs ‘where anything can happen’ instead of sitting down and methodically plotting out a rebuild that leads to being a legitimate contender. I think they’ll likely have to bottom out again and rebuild in a couple of years to acquire top end talent.

I refuse to take the Hab rebuild seriously until they buy out: Gallagher ($6,500,000), Anderson ($5,500,000), Dvorak ($4,450,000). Along with trading a high 1st for Dach, then trading two firsts for Newhook in some misguided attempt to speed up the rebuild. At least Yzerman isn't this delusional/misguided.

We'll see what happens this summer.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Not only mack, mcdavid but you'd also need a makar and rantanen which montreal wont have either.

Garbage. You don't need a Makar or a McDavid. Many Cup winners don't have players at that level. Vegas doesn't.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

I refuse to take the Hab rebuild seriously until they buy out: Gallagher ($6,500,000), Anderson ($5,500,000), Dvorak ($4,450,000). Along with trading a high 1st for Dach, then trading two firsts for Newhook in some misguided attempt to speed up the rebuild. At least Yzerman isn't this delusional/misguided.

We'll see what happens this summer.

What a joke of a post. Habs are rebuilding the right way. Newhook will be worth far more than 2 early 2nd round picks. Habs gave up a redundant player in Romanov for Dach. Looks like a glass body but worth the risk. There is no need to buy out anyone. They have plenty of cap room to make any moves that materialize. Yzerman added a lot of overplayed players like Andrew Copp, JT Compher etc that the Wings are stuck with for years. All the Habs duds except Gallagher will be gone after next season.

Habs and Wings rebuilds suffer from the same issue. The refusal to tank for top tier talent.

Habs did it once for Slafkovsky (knowing full well he wasn't an elite talent) then stopped before 2023 when they could have had Bedard, Carlsson or Fantilli.

Wrong again. Slafkovsky is going to be a star player. And they got Reinbacher who may well be as valuable as any player in the draft outside of Bedard.