Which team has a better rebuild? Habs vs Red Wings?

[dirtydanglez]

dont really like what either are doing but id say detroit is ahead and that the habs are in a better spot than detroit was a few years in.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Suzuki is an 80 points C with little to no support
Dach is elite talent wise, all we need is for him to be healthy.
Guhle is already a top pair D, his offense is being supressed because they want to sign him to a cheap deal.
Reinbacher should track about the same.
Slafkovsky should end up being a top winger in the league.
Roy, Caufield and Newhook are there as depth.

And then theres this pick in the top 10 of the draft.

There is elite talent in Montreal.

You think the Canadiens are purposefully ensuring that Guhle isn't putting up more points to pay him less in the future?

That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever read on here. Real hot-dog for brains kind of take.

 

[Mrb1p]

You think the Canadiens are purposefully ensuring that Guhle isn't putting up more points to pay him less in the future?

That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever read on here. Real hot-dog for brains kind of take.

He has had two shifts on the PP this year, how do you explain that?

Oiler fan here saying Habs.

Detroit looks to be setting themselves up to be a bubble team for a decade, rather than being a contender.

Oilers were a bubble team from 97-2005.

You don't realise how far behind you are until you line up your sub-PPG 1C against the reigning Hart /Art Ross winner backed by a Dman with a Norris, and hope to basically land 16 upset wins in the playoffs.

In todays NHL the contenders have elite talent.

Habs are still in a position to draft elite talent. But the Wings are set to be 1st round fodder for a decade.

Larkin is a top 15 C in the NHL, just like Suzuki. Seider is tracking to be the same thing at D.

Im not the biggest Wings rebuild fan but your perception of what elite means is clearly warped.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

He has had two shifts on the PP this year, how do you explain that?

By any other reason than 'We're conspiring to make a player less productive to pay him less in the future'

Literally no team would do that. Why would MSL go along with that? The f***. That's so stupid for a million reasons. I'm sure the Canadiens would be glad to have their young top-pairing defenseman putting up a bunch of points.

 

[Number 57]

Detroit is like 2-3 years ahead in the process. It's weird to compare the Habs to them. I'd compare Detroit to Ottawa or Buffalo. The Habs are like a year or two ahead of teams like Chicago and Anaheim rebuild-wise.

Also, the Habs seem to be betting more on a strong D than superstars on the front. Imo, this means the rebuild will take longer because these defensemen are most likely going to take a while to mature. I don't see Montreal competing for a playoff spot for another two years, unless something crazy happens or some of their prospects come in and are amazing from the get go.

I just pray they don't waste this rebuild. It's not a good time for us fans.

The Habs' rebuild is done, they will not tank another year. They may get lucky in this year's draft (Celebrini) or not, but they will at least add another top-10 pick to an already strong prospect pool. From now on, they are going forward with whatever they have, for better or worse.

They will not aim for another bottom-5 finish.

They have enough depth to wait and see which prospects actually hit their potential and go from there. They have a ton of quality prospects on D which they can trade for forward help if need be (see Byram vs Mittelstadt recently).

 

[Mrb1p]

By any other reason than 'We're conspiring to make a player less productive to pay him less in the future'

Literally no team would do that. Why would MSL go along with that? The f***. That's so stupid for a million reasons. I'm sure the Canadiens would be glad to have their young top-pairing defenseman putting up a bunch of points.

Whats the reasoning then?

 

[a mangy Meowth]

Neither. They both suck ass

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Whats the reasoning then?

I don't coach for the Habs. I just know your suggestion is the unlikeliest one possible. No team will purposefully tank the development on their young top-pairing defenseman. Jesus. Who thinks that way?

 

[GirardSpinorama]

You think the Canadiens are purposefully ensuring that Guhle isn't putting up more points to pay him less in the future?

That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever read on here. Real hot-dog for brains kind of take.

Just an excuse for his limited offensive production.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Whats the reasoning then?

the coach doesn't think he's the best option there, clearly

Suzuki is an 80 points C with little to no support
Dach is elite talent wise, all we need is for him to be healthy.
Guhle is already a top pair D, his offense is being supressed because they want to sign him to a cheap deal.
Reinbacher should track about the same.
Slafkovsky should end up being a top winger in the league.
Roy, Caufield and Newhook are there as depth.

And then theres this pick in the top 10 of the draft.

There is elite talent in Montreal.

Dach is elite because of what, his draft position? the dudes best season is a 53 point pace lol. No, you need a lot more than just health for him to be an elite player wtf.

in reality literally zero of those players would be considered "elite" if they were on any of the top 4 Atlantic teams because they're so outclassed by the actual elite players on those teams. There aren't 100 elite players. IF Slafkovsky develops fantastically maybe he can be a top ~20 player later on and it wouldn't be absurd to call him elite.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

He has had two shifts on the PP this year, how do you explain that?


Larkin is a top 15 C in the NHL, just like Suzuki. Seider is tracking to be the same thing at D.

Im not the biggest Wings rebuild fan but your perception of what elite means is clearly warped.

Yeah,

15th isn't elite.

Out of 32 teams, it's the very definition of an 'average' 1st line Center. He's good. Every team wants him. But he's not a gamebreaker like Kucherov Barkov MacKinnon or McDrai

'Elite' are the guys who can win hardware.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

Not going to lie, that does not look like a playoff team in a couple years. Think you are high on the prospect supply.

Thats easily a playoff team and it has the potential to be a contending team for a long time.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Thats easily a playoff team and it has the potential to be a contending team for a long time.

Okay lol

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Just an excuse for his limited offensive production.

It's true that he sees little PP time. I think he's got more to give and he's already a fantastic player.

But 'they're keeping him off the PP to save money on a contract' is such a stupid take.

 

[Mrb1p]

Yeah,

15th isn't elite.

Out of 32 teams, it's the very definition of an 'average' 1st line Center. He's good. Every team wants him. But he's not a gamebreaker like Kucherov Barkov MacKinnon or McDrai

'Elite' are the guys who can win hardware.

I mean I expect him and Suzuki to be very close to Barkov. Whats the real difference? Would Barkov be a ~90 ish guy if he wasnt on a stacked team? He was producing at similar levels as the other two before the stack happened in Florida.

I agree that neither are in the superstar category of the first 4 you listed, but thats not elite, thats like cream of the crop. Its like a select 5-6 players, you dont need one of those to win.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

I mean I expect him and Suzuki to be very close to Barkov. Whats the real difference? Would Barkov be a ~90 ish guy if he wasnt on a stacked team? He was producing at similar levels as the other two before the stack happened in Florida.

I agree that neither are in the superstar category of the first 4 you listed, but thats not elite, thats like cream of the crop. Its like a select 5-6 players, you dont need one of those to win.

Which cup winners didn't?

Barkov has a Selke.

 

[Mrb1p]

Which cup winners didn't?

Barkov has a Selke.

STL and Vegas recently. Carolina, LA before.

Suzuki should get Selke contention for the rest of his career, hes probably finishing no worse than 5 this year. Hes been a clear top 3 this year, pretty close with Barkov himself. He probably doesnt have the pedigree and team results to be a nomination but thats clearly going to change in the future.

 

[Spirits]

The D men are young however they are playing well; wait until Hutson and Reinbacher come and they will make a difference.

No love for Barron?

Neither. They both suck ass

Agreed, Detroit is worse though.

 

[CanadianHawks]

STL and Vegas recently. Carolina, LA before.

Suzuki should get Selke contention for the rest of his career, hes probably finishing no worse than 5 this year. Hes been a clear top 3 this year, pretty close with Barkov himself. He probably doesnt have the pedigree and team results to be a nomination but thats clearly going to change in the future.

Eric Staal scored 100 points that year

Kopitar and Doughty were HOF talents in their prime along with Quick

Petro likely a HOF D man from the back end for the Blues. Their window was shut the moment they walked away from him

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Unfortunately not all franchises can bottom out until they have a guaranteed 100 point player in the draft. Some have to rebuild by making smart hockey moves around their reconstruction.

 

[Fire Sweeney]

No rebuild in either case, the wings have a garbage GM and the Habs a garbage coaching staff.

 

[eviohh26]

Unfortunately not all franchises can bottom out until they have a guaranteed 100 point player in the draft. Some have to rebuild by making smart hockey moves around their reconstruction.

You guys just had a 1st overall pick cuh.

 

[FMichael]

Both rebuilds are seriously flawed by reasons that don't depend on GMs of respective teams.

Both will spend some time between top 10-20 range and will restart from the scratch 7-9 years from now. You can't seriously compete if your top line center is Suzuki or Larkin.

In the current NHL you need to get lucky with the lottery and get lucky with drafting in later rounds. Both things are completely unpredictable.

Pretty much this…Right now Detroit is well on it’s way to ‘Minnesota Mediocrity’ where we will be an above average team that’ll make the playoffs 2 or 3 seasons out of 5 and likely lose in the 1st round.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Both desperately need high end forwards.
I’d give Detroit an edge but not by a lot.

 

[Warden of the North]

No way to know until one of them accomplishes something.

I have settled on this answer for most of these types of debates. Until they do it, they aren't ___________.