Which team has a better rebuild? Habs vs Red Wings?
- Thread starter sawchuk1971
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Dazed and Confused
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Different stages of rebuilds, so it's hard to compare; Plus how they got into their rebuilds also matters. The Habs started selling off pieces that helped them get to a random Cup final, while DET stripped the cupboard bare trying to keep their playoff streak going.
Imo DET has the better high-end talent (primarily due to Seider), but Yzerman's done a poor job complementing them, especially on defence. Having 1 or 2 of Maatta, Chiarot, Holl, Petry and Gostisbehere is fine, but building your entire defence around all of them is just horrible planning.
The feeling I get with Yzerman is he sees a decent player and just jumps at grabbing them; without giving much thought to how they fit into the lineup. For example, he picks up Kostin, tosses 2mil at him, and then doesn't have a proper spot or idea where he fits into the lineup.
Even Debrincat is a good example of this. Yeah, he got him at a cheap price; but DET already had a young diminutive RH sniper in Raymond, plus Perron, and had signed Copher and Sprong earlier in the summer.
What new element did Debrincat bring, that they didn't already have in spades?
MON is still fairly early in their scorched earth rebuild. And although they've gotten good returns from selling players, there's still a lack of high-end talent in their system.
Imo DET has the better high-end talent (primarily due to Seider), but Yzerman's done a poor job complementing them, especially on defence. Having 1 or 2 of Maatta, Chiarot, Holl, Petry and Gostisbehere is fine, but building your entire defence around all of them is just horrible planning.
The feeling I get with Yzerman is he sees a decent player and just jumps at grabbing them; without giving much thought to how they fit into the lineup. For example, he picks up Kostin, tosses 2mil at him, and then doesn't have a proper spot or idea where he fits into the lineup.
Even Debrincat is a good example of this. Yeah, he got him at a cheap price; but DET already had a young diminutive RH sniper in Raymond, plus Perron, and had signed Copher and Sprong earlier in the summer.
What new element did Debrincat bring, that they didn't already have in spades?
MON is still fairly early in their scorched earth rebuild. And although they've gotten good returns from selling players, there's still a lack of high-end talent in their system.
Hostile Offer
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The Wings were utter garbage for years dude. I think the issue with them was more that they tried to extend that playoff streak far too late and ended up with a shit team with nothing in the pipeline in terms of prospects and then got terrible luck at draft lottery. It looks like they ended up with a very middling team out of it but I'm not blaming them for going at it after like six years of complete futility.
The Habs on the other hand bottomed out quicker so I don't feel like there's that much rush with them. They are getting a top 10 pick this year too so the rebuild is far from complete yet. We'll see but they have the pieces on paper to be a really good team in maybe 2-3 years.
JianYang
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Dach is also a key. If he keeps going on IR. Suzuki has no help down the middle.
JianYang
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After that finals run, they essentially lost price, Weber, and danault that summer for nothing.
For some reason, the old management still doubled down and tried to salvage something but it should have been clear at the time that a rebuild was the only option.
The official rebuild date in my opinion is when Jeff Gorton was hired to oversee this, which was at the tail end of the 2021 calendar year.
"Maatta, Chiarot, Holl, Petry and Gostisbehere is fine, but building your entire defence around all of them is just horrible planning."
You think Yzerman's long term plan is built around short term contracts of journyman players? If those guys aren't there who plays hockey on the Wings? Maybe Yzerman has a plan with the 18 defenseman he has drafted including high picks like Seider and Edvinsson.
As a GM Yzerman doesn't hand spots to young players. They have te earn it. Just like most players on Tampa went through the AHL the same thing will happen on the Wings.
Seems pretty obvious that Debrincat brings goal scoring. The Wings have gone from 24th to 9th in scoring.
Spring in Fialta
A malign star kept him
Seems silly to compare the two given the timelines but what I'll say is that HF tends to often be wrong and trying to project who's going to be doing what 2-5 years from now is usually very stupid and near impossible to project league-wide.
Who had Ottawa and Buffalo being bad for so long? Who had Vegas being a contender right away? Who had Dallas building a contender without ever rebuilding/scorched earth? Who had Winnipeg as a top team this year? Who had Edmonton only having one (terrible) WCF in ten years of McDavid? You can go on and on.
Hockey is a team sport where your biggest stars will play twenty minutes a game. It's so much more than just picks and tanking but this forum is broken when it comes to that topic.
Who had Ottawa and Buffalo being bad for so long? Who had Vegas being a contender right away? Who had Dallas building a contender without ever rebuilding/scorched earth? Who had Winnipeg as a top team this year? Who had Edmonton only having one (terrible) WCF in ten years of McDavid? You can go on and on.
Hockey is a team sport where your biggest stars will play twenty minutes a game. It's so much more than just picks and tanking but this forum is broken when it comes to that topic.
Crunchy
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- Jan 27, 2020
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Montreal's rebuild is interesting and a much different approach and situation when compared to Detroit's. Recall, for example, that Montreal drafted 3rd overall the year Detroit's rebuild started in earnest with the selection of 6th overall Filip Zadina.
The Canadians have been primarily a mediocre team drafting mid 1st round for the last 10 years with a few top 10 picks scattered in and a few late firsts. They've also managed to win the lottery 3 times since selecting 3rd in 2012 compared to Detroit winning 0 times.
Montreal has had consistent influx of talent filtering through over the last 10-15 years, while Detroit's coffers were drained entirely prior to their rebuild.
Montreal has also aggressively looked to accelerate their rebuild with trades for Dach and Newhook and even traded for a young Suzuki a few years previous.
I think Kent Hughes has done a very good job so far setting up an intriguing rebuild. Their x-factor here is their coaching with MSL, who's done an amazing job getting the most from his young players.
Overall, I don't love the prospect pool relative to expectations and I don't yet understand the team build they are targeting, but if MSL continues to get the most out of their young guys, they make a few creative trades with their prospects, and they find consistent goaltending they will be a very intriguing team moving forward.
The Canadians have been primarily a mediocre team drafting mid 1st round for the last 10 years with a few top 10 picks scattered in and a few late firsts. They've also managed to win the lottery 3 times since selecting 3rd in 2012 compared to Detroit winning 0 times.
Montreal has had consistent influx of talent filtering through over the last 10-15 years, while Detroit's coffers were drained entirely prior to their rebuild.
Montreal has also aggressively looked to accelerate their rebuild with trades for Dach and Newhook and even traded for a young Suzuki a few years previous.
I think Kent Hughes has done a very good job so far setting up an intriguing rebuild. Their x-factor here is their coaching with MSL, who's done an amazing job getting the most from his young players.
Overall, I don't love the prospect pool relative to expectations and I don't yet understand the team build they are targeting, but if MSL continues to get the most out of their young guys, they make a few creative trades with their prospects, and they find consistent goaltending they will be a very intriguing team moving forward.
Both teams would need basically a "big surprise" from one or two their drafted players to take that next step. Someone would have to be a lot better than what they are projected to be at this point for either team to rely soley on their drafted players to turn them into both a regular PO team and then a contender.
Both clubs were late in drafting and developing a goalie to replace Howard/Price who were their starters for a while. Once your starter hits 30, have to assess what you have drafted and if you don't feel good about anyone in your system, have to begin to make drafting and developing one or two a priority.
I mean, NYR drafted Lindblom in 2018 and he turns 24 this summer and has spent almost all of these past 2 years in the ECHL. Fortunately for them, they were able to find Georgiev and Shesh in the mid rounds in earlier drafts. So, even taking a goalie in rounds 2-3 is no guaranteed. Which is why Detroit had to double down in round 2 this past draft on a goalie given Cossa's struggles as a first year pro.
Ideally for a rebuliding team, they find their goalie by the 3rd draft of the rebuild to allow the kid time to continue to develop and not get rushed.
Both clubs were late in drafting and developing a goalie to replace Howard/Price who were their starters for a while. Once your starter hits 30, have to assess what you have drafted and if you don't feel good about anyone in your system, have to begin to make drafting and developing one or two a priority.
I mean, NYR drafted Lindblom in 2018 and he turns 24 this summer and has spent almost all of these past 2 years in the ECHL. Fortunately for them, they were able to find Georgiev and Shesh in the mid rounds in earlier drafts. So, even taking a goalie in rounds 2-3 is no guaranteed. Which is why Detroit had to double down in round 2 this past draft on a goalie given Cossa's struggles as a first year pro.
Ideally for a rebuliding team, they find their goalie by the 3rd draft of the rebuild to allow the kid time to continue to develop and not get rushed.
robertmac43
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I give this one to the Red Wings. Solid young guys, plus some decent older players.
The Habs are 1 or 2 players away from being on the same level as the Red Wings.
The Habs are 1 or 2 players away from being on the same level as the Red Wings.
Dunno why, but trading for Zegras for them would feel like the Sergachev/Druoin swap all over.
Kindve a weird comparison. Guessing the OP got into it with a wings fan and wanted validation.
The rebuilds are hard to compare as Detroit's best player is already in his prime. Montreal has been rebuilding for less time but also some of their best players came from before they started officially rebuilding.
I'd say Detroit is undoubtedly "ahead" as a team currently better than the Habs. Hard to say where they'll both fall when it's all said and done. Both teams do lack real top end talent. I do think people are sleeping on Danielson after his slow start this season though. I think a lot of it will come down to how good ASP/Edvinsson/Reinbacher end up.
The rebuilds are hard to compare as Detroit's best player is already in his prime. Montreal has been rebuilding for less time but also some of their best players came from before they started officially rebuilding.
I'd say Detroit is undoubtedly "ahead" as a team currently better than the Habs. Hard to say where they'll both fall when it's all said and done. Both teams do lack real top end talent. I do think people are sleeping on Danielson after his slow start this season though. I think a lot of it will come down to how good ASP/Edvinsson/Reinbacher end up.
Not a fan of Zegras for Montreal. I mean, he should not be looked upon as a saviour. He's just a piece. Not sure he is the type of guy that the Habs need.
ViewsFromThe6ix
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I agree with most of this. I feel like Yzerman tried to rush the rebuild a little and it's hurt the team. Detroit might have the better talent right now, but I'm more than happy with Montreal's approach so far. I don't know if either team will end up with the elite talent it takes to be a consistent Stanley Cup contender, but it's far too soon to say.
I'm also a huge homer, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt.
Fatass
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This ^^^
The key to a rebuild’s level of success is the elite talent in key spots.
Goalie
Number one D
Two centres
Scoring Winger
Not too sure either club has these roles filled with high end talent? Detroit might be closer?
danisonfire
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GhostfaceWu
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danisonfire
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Yes. Year two. Lol at your contribution.
They blew up the team 2 years ago with a full management change after losing price weber and others. Before that they were treading water trying to make it work. Thank god they actually committed to a full rebuild for once.
Canadiens Need to Fully Embrace Rebuild
The Montreal Canadiens need to prioritize their young players' development and to continue to invest in the future in order to build a contending team.
thehockeywriters.com
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HabsForHire
"Expect the unexpected"
Habs prospects are better, id say it's a wash and wouldn't be suprised if both are great teams sooner than later
Mrb1p
PRICERSTOPDAPUCK
Suzuki is an 80 points C with little to no support
Dach is elite talent wise, all we need is for him to be healthy.
Guhle is already a top pair D, his offense is being supressed because they want to sign him to a cheap deal.
Reinbacher should track about the same.
Slafkovsky should end up being a top winger in the league.
Roy, Caufield and Newhook are there as depth.
And then theres this pick in the top 10 of the draft.
There is elite talent in Montreal.
Oiler fan here saying Habs.
Detroit looks to be setting themselves up to be a bubble team for a decade, rather than being a contender.
Oilers were a bubble team from 97-2005.
You don't realise how far behind you are until you line up your sub-PPG 1C against the reigning Hart /Art Ross winner backed by a Dman with a Norris, and hope to basically land 16 upset wins in the playoffs.
In todays NHL the contenders have elite talent.
Habs are still in a position to draft elite talent. But the Wings are set to be 1st round fodder for a decade.
Detroit looks to be setting themselves up to be a bubble team for a decade, rather than being a contender.
Oilers were a bubble team from 97-2005.
You don't realise how far behind you are until you line up your sub-PPG 1C against the reigning Hart /Art Ross winner backed by a Dman with a Norris, and hope to basically land 16 upset wins in the playoffs.
In todays NHL the contenders have elite talent.
Habs are still in a position to draft elite talent. But the Wings are set to be 1st round fodder for a decade.
