Where did Yzerman go wrong with the rebuild?

[norrisnick]

4th? So are you holding the opinion that Copp, Chiarot, and co. were worth 20 points in the standings? And then subsequently upset that those moves were made that gave the team 20 extra points? And making such an improvement is a bad thing for a GM to do?

 

[Frk It]

Having Michkov fall to 7 allows the "both sides of the mouth" argument of holding the opposing opinions that Copp/Chiarot and co. were awful signings because they don't help the team in any meaningful way, but also good enough to maybe account for 6 points in the standings needed to slip far enough in the standings to be there to... ultimately pass on him anyway because given a choice between tiny offense only winger and two-way workhorse center we all know who Yzerman would pick.

They didn’t help the team in any meaningful way?

That’s crazy considering we had 93 pts and literally missed the playoffs on the last game of the season.

Chariot was a solid player for us last year.

that he would fall to specifically 7th? obviously not

that he would fall to say 4th or 5th and possibly later? very predictable


so? having waiting an extra couple years to get your superstar to come over to your shitty team is like complaining about winning the lottery but having to wait a few months to claim the money



saying something wasn't a mistake because a different mistake could have happened later isn't an actual argument

Thinking we should tank yet another year when you get shitty odds at the top 2 picks and one of those top 2 players is under contract in Russia for 4 more years is a bad argument too.

Nevermind that you have a ton of cap space available and have seen really good growth from your young players.

 

[norrisnick]

They didn’t help the team in any meaningful way?

That’s crazy considering we had 93 pts and literally missed the playoffs on the last game of the season.

Chariot was a solid player for us last year.

This more specifically was about '23 when we finished with 80.

But yes, they have and do help. But nowhere near as much as a magic bean could have helped an indefinite (and at the time of the draft that was at least three more seasons) amount of time in the future.

 

[ricky0034]

4th? So are you holding the opinion that Copp, Chiarot, and co. were worth 20 points in the standings? And then subsequently upset that those moves were made that gave the team 20 extra points? And making such an improvement is a bad thing for a GM to do?

the Wings went from a -82 goal differential one year to a -39 goal differential the next which actually probably would map out to something like a 20 point swing if the WIngs overachieving in the standings with 74 points with their -82 goal differential the previous year wasn't muddying things

most really bad teams could improve substantially by bringing in enough guys like Copp and Chiarot, it just doesn't make sense because it doesn't actually get you anywhere in the long run and they're smart enough to realize that they need to acquire actual talent somehow for that

 

[norrisnick]

the Wings went from a -82 goal differential one year to a -39 goal differential the next which actually probably would map out to something like a 20 point swing if the WIngs overachieving in the standings with 74 points with their -82 goal differential the previous year wasn't muddying things

most really bad teams could improve substantially by bringing in enough guys like Copp and Chiarot, it just doesn't make sense because it doesn't actually get you anywhere in the long run and they're smart enough to realize that they need to acquire actual talent somehow for that

So Mo, Ray, and presumably other kids that would play in place of the signings would be better served getting their faces kicked in a couple more seasons? How very Buffalo...

'23-'24 had too little youth, but that seems to be changing this coming season. But having no one around for the kids is worse.

 

[lilidk]

Yzerman clearly should have known these things that we know now, such as:

1) Michkov would slide to #7
2) Michkov would be able to get out of his KHL contract several years early

Plus who is to say they wouldn’t have passed on him like a handful of other teams did?

Such a silly hindsight-based thing to be mad at.

Michkov , was second best prospect and the reason he felt, not because his contact, but because his personality. We don't know how everything will work out , but there's a risk with him. He could be a superstar , future Hall of famer or he could be some one who doesn't care.

 

[Imgoingtowork]

Nothing wrong this year.

 

[Winger98]

So Mo, Ray, and presumably other kids that would play in place of the signings would be better served getting their faces kicked in a couple more seasons? How very Buffalo...

'23-'24 had too little youth, but that seems to be changing this coming season. But having no one around for the kids is worse.

Yeah. I don't know how Buffalo, Ottawa, Arizona, etc. aren't bigger warnings against endlessly trying to lose your way to greatness. Sometimes you get lucky and get that generational talent. Way more often you don't. But you need to build with what you got.

As it is, I think it's going to end up very debatable that Yzerman still pulled the top guys from their draft classes with Mo, Raymond, and Ed. You pull the top guy, or top3 guy, from several classes in a row, I think it gets a bit iffy to start saying that's not good enough to really build around.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

The default answer to this is "fans are stupid". How do we know fans are stupid? Because many in this fanbase defended Holland up until the bitter end.

What Yzerman said: "I'm going to build through the draft."

What fans apparently heard: "I'm psychic and I know who all the best players in every round are and they will be superstars in their D+1 year."

oH wHy DoEsN't hE mAkE tRaDeS?

Trades with what? Bertuzzi was the only tradeable player we had without dealing a piece we'd like to build around - Yzerman got a 1st out of him and then he fell off an absolute cliff the next season. That sounds like an Yzerman win to me. "Trade picks!" Oh yes, what a fantastic idea for a team that hasn't made the playoffs yet, f***ing stunning insight from the smartest this sport's fanbase has to offer.

wHy iSn'T hE pLaYiNg tHe YoUnG gUyS

This here is Ken Holland whiplash - contrary to what 2010-2020 made us believe, it is not in fact a good idea to throw your draft picks to the wolves as a reaction to ten years of letting them rot in the minors too long. Picks do need to develop, that's why it's not an iredeemable sin to sign some middling players as insulation. Our absolute worst contract is three more years of 5.6, a lot of teams would KILL for that to be their anchor.

 

[DanielMarois]

The default answer to this is "fans are stupid". How do we know fans are stupid? Because many in this fanbase defended Holland up until the bitter end.

What Yzerman said: "I'm going to build through the draft."

What fans apparently heard: "I'm psychic and I know who all the best players in every round are and they will be superstars in their D+1 year."

oH wHy DoEsN't hE mAkE tRaDeS?

Trades with what? Bertuzzi was the only tradeable player we had without dealing a piece we'd like to build around - Yzerman got a 1st out of him and then he fell off an absolute cliff the next season. That sounds like an Yzerman win to me. "Trade picks!" Oh yes, what a fantastic idea for a team that hasn't made the playoffs yet, f***ing stunning insight from the smartest this sport's fanbase has to offer.

wHy iSn'T hE pLaYiNg tHe YoUnG gUyS

This here is Ken Holland whiplash - contrary to what 2010-2020 made us believe, it is not in fact a good idea to throw your draft picks to the wolves as a reaction to ten years of letting them rot in the minors too long. Picks do need to develop, that's why it's not an iredeemable sin to sign some middling players as insulation. Our absolute worst contract is three more years of 5.6, a lot of teams would KILL for that to be their anchor.

But they're not just rebuilding through the draft so it's a cop-out to just say no criticism until prospects are ready. When you have Larkin in his prime and bring in guys like DeBrincat, Kane, and all the other vets you absolutely are trying to make the playoffs regardless of any PR spin about patience.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

But they're not just rebuilding through the draft so it's a cop-out to just say no criticism until prospects are ready. When you have Larkin in his prime and bring in guys like DeBrincat, Kane, and all the other vets you absolutely are trying to make the playoffs regardless of any PR spin about patience.

"Build through the draft" does not mean "tank until we get a #1"

 

[Retire91]

There are literally 31 other teams in the NHL that are a top 6 center, top pair D, and #1 goalie away from perennial playoffs teams. And with being one of the oldest teams in the league, already against the cap with no more high draft choices coming, its not like Detroit is in a great spot moving forward.

Holland's last roster in Detroit was bad, but it wasn't historically bad. There were actually a lot of nice pieces. Larkin was a point per game center, Athanasiou had 30 goals, Nyquist/Mantha/Bertuzzi all had good years, Hronek established himself as a 22 year old top pair D. Yzerman took over and cleaned house which led to perhaps the worst season in NHL history.

Yzerman nailed his first few 1st round picks, but outside that his drafts have been terrible.
2019 draft he got Seider, but with 12 other draft picks including 3 second rounders, he got nothing else.
2020 he drafted Raymond but nothing else with 11 other picks including another 3 second rounders.

I didn't say top center, and we have number one goalie and top pairing D potentially in the pipeline.

At what point of Yzerman improving the team every year did it go wrong?

And please by all means post Holland's roster in the hockey history board and let's find out unbiasedly how bad that team really was.

 

[ricky0034]

"Build through the draft" does not mean "tank until we get a #1"

it also doesn't mean "cosplay as a rebuilding team until you get bored then give up and sign as many mediocre free agents as you can get"

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

it also doesn't mean "cosplay as a rebuilding team until you get bored then give up and sign as many mediocre free agents as you can get"

This is pretty much what the Copp,Chiarot Holl summer was. The Yzerpanic button. I know he regrets it. Overall he are in pretty good shape. Just wish we had a Michov like prospect or made a hockey trade to get one.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

There are literally 31 other teams in the NHL that are a top 6 center, top pair D, and #1 goalie away from perennial playoffs teams. And with being one of the oldest teams in the league, already against the cap with no more high draft choices coming, its not like Detroit is in a great spot moving forward.

Holland's last roster in Detroit was bad, but it wasn't historically bad. There were actually a lot of nice pieces. Larkin was a point per game center, Athanasiou had 30 goals, Nyquist/Mantha/Bertuzzi all had good years, Hronek established himself as a 22 year old top pair D. Yzerman took over and cleaned house which led to perhaps the worst season in NHL history.

Yzerman nailed his first few 1st round picks, but outside that his drafts have been terrible.
2019 draft he got Seider, but with 12 other draft picks including 3 second rounders, he got nothing else.
2020 he drafted Raymond but nothing else with 11 other picks including another 3 second rounders.

What.

You mentioned 5 players who were good… except for Nyquist, they were all still there in 19-20. Hronek was -38. He was a power play specialist who was dogshit at actual defense.

Most of the difference between 18-19 and 19-20 was the retirement of Kronner and getting rid of sheltered forward extraordinaire Thomas Vanek. The team was wildly inconsistent and 18-19 was their aberration, not 19-20.

I always hate the “oldest roster in the league” as a complaint… when the Wings have five dudes under contract by the end of next year currently. Guys like Motte and Gustafsson and Lagesson, etc are made to be passed up on the depth chart and I’d rather have a 35 year old Kane over most 28 year old wingers.

And “no high draft picks in the future” currently speaking we have #6 from ‘21 to start with the big club, #15 from ‘21 is getting the lions share of games in GR. #8 from ‘22 has an inside track on a roster spot and is developing nicely. #9 from ‘23 has an outside shot at a roster spot this coming year and looks real good for the following

A mid round pick is not waiver eligible this year (Johansson) so he’s probably sticking with Detroit. Guys like Wallinder and Mazur are doing good things on the farm.

Another goalie in the pipe at MSU looks amazing in Augustine.

It is a dipshit fools errand to act like the Wings are not in a great position now and that they weren’t in a terrible position in 2019 before Yzerman joined them

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

it also doesn't mean "cosplay as a rebuilding team until you get bored then give up and sign as many mediocre free agents as you can get"

Eh?

The Wings have done the following
2019-2021: tear down phase. Buying out bad contracts, riding out time on others.
2022: added the Copp, Compher, Perron type deals. *This is a step that rebuilding teams do. Bring in vets who won’t get absolutely caved in every single game so when they do play rookies; the team doesn’t just get smoked.
2023: signed chiarot, holl, pysyk, Hagg. Again, what a rebuilding team does… but just with a lot of defenders.

Seriously, what the hell do people think rebuilding teams are?

The Wings are now in that middle ground where they aren’t wantonly dumping pieces but they’re not good enough to dive in for rentals at the price of draft capital.

 

[ricky0034]

Eh?

The Wings have done the following
2019-2021: tear down phase. Buying out bad contracts, riding out time on others.
2022: added the Copp, Compher, Perron type deals. *This is a step that rebuilding teams do. Bring in vets who won’t get absolutely caved in every single game so when they do play rookies; the team doesn’t just get smoked.
2023: signed chiarot, holl, pysyk, Hagg. Again, what a rebuilding team does… but just with a lot of defenders.

Seriously, what the hell do people think rebuilding teams are?

The Wings are now in that middle ground where they aren’t wantonly dumping pieces but they’re not good enough to dive in for rentals at the price of draft capital.

"didn't go to my AA meetings? but I DID try to stop drinking! I didn't go to the liquor store for an entire weekend!"

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

"didn't go to my AA meetings? but I DID try to stop drinking! I didn't go to the liquor store for an entire weekend!"

This is a very weird analogy.

Like, by the nature of the league, you have to spend within 80% of the cap. The Wings have been building so they have a bunch of young talent that will be hitting in pretty quick succession and it’ll all be cheap.

They have consistently been improving and you have the core guys like Larkin, Raymond, and Seider indisputably getting better and better.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Michkov , was second best prospect and the reason he felt, not because his contact, but because his personality. We don't know how everything will work out , but there's a risk with him. He could be a superstar , future Hall of famer or he could be some one who doesn't care.

There’s a rumor that he gamed interviews at the combine so he’d get picked by Philly.

Also, the rumors about Philly buying out Michkov make it seem like it was handled in an underhanded way.

 

[DanielMarois]

It's interesting, when the team looked like it might make the playoffs the past two years ppl were saying see this why Yzerman brought in the vets to help get to the playoffs and give the young players a taste. He was building a Seattle, which then changed to Fla this year. Then when they missed it was oh well these things take time.

 

[ricky0034]

This is a very weird analogy.

Like, by the nature of the league, you have to spend within 80% of the cap. The Wings have been building so they have a bunch of young talent that will be hitting in pretty quick succession and it’ll all be cheap.

They have consistently been improving and you have the core guys like Larkin, Raymond, and Seider indisputably getting better and better.

look if you see a team with enough high end talent to truly compete with the top end teams then great, ultimately it's pretty subjective until we see more and at this point no amount of back and forth will change anyones minds on it until then

when I look at the Wings I don't see a successful rebuild though, I see a team that had a new GM come in and try to rebuild things, then halfway into acquiring the necessary talent decide that he didn't want to do that anymore, there's any number of possible reasons for that but personally I chalk it up to Yzerman getting bored, perhaps a bit frustrated with how lottery drawings shook out, and deciding hey what if I pulled this turkey out of the oven and finished cooking it in the microwave

 

[Fynn]

It's funny when people see a "goalie mess", when Yzerman just said, that they like multiple options and we'll see how the situation develops throughout the season. Best guy will steal the job and they move on.

So there's the truth. He creates options. He has Plan A and B and C, if things won't work.

It's not a mess. It's a plan.

It's the same "plan" as years past. Get a bunch of guys who aren't that good to see who "seizes" the opportunity. Nobody does for any length of time. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. When you say you have 3 starters, you actually have zero starters.

 

[Frk It]

look if you see a team with enough high end talent to truly compete with the top end teams then great, ultimately it's pretty subjective until we see more and at this point no amount of back and forth will change anyones minds on it until then

when I look at the Wings I don't see a successful rebuild though, I see a team that had a new GM come in and try to rebuild things, then halfway into acquiring the necessary talent decide that he didn't want to do that anymore, there's any number of possible reasons for that but personally I chalk it up to Yzerman getting bored, perhaps a bit frustrated with how lottery drawings shook out, and deciding hey what if I pulled this turkey out of the oven and finished cooking it in the microwave

We drafted in the top 10 seven years in a row.

Part of the problem is you make it seem like you can control where you finish in the standings or if you get last you’ll get rewarded for it. Neither are necessarily true.

Yzerman took the turkey out when it made perfect sense and after that thing had been in there plenty long.

Plus I’m sure if we got screwed by the lottery and decided to draft someone like Reinbacher you’d be sitting here saying we need to tank yet another year.

 

[rbartnik]

We drafted in the top 10 seven years in a row.

Part of the problem is you make it seem like you can control where you finish in the standings or if you get last you’ll get rewarded for it. Neither are necessarily true.

Yzerman took the turkey out when it made perfect sense and after that thing had been in there plenty long.

Plus I’m sure if we got screwed by the lottery and decided to draft someone like Reinbacher you’d be sitting here saying we need to tank yet another year.

To go with this, team building isn’t happening in a vacuum. The team still has to put butts in seats and a perennial bottom feeder doesn’t do that. To claim it’s because the GM got bored is ridiculous.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

look if you see a team with enough high end talent to truly compete with the top end teams then great, ultimately it's pretty subjective until we see more and at this point no amount of back and forth will change anyones minds on it until then

when I look at the Wings I don't see a successful rebuild though, I see a team that had a new GM come in and try to rebuild things, then halfway into acquiring the necessary talent decide that he didn't want to do that anymore, there's any number of possible reasons for that but personally I chalk it up to Yzerman getting bored, perhaps a bit frustrated with how lottery drawings shook out, and deciding hey what if I pulled this turkey out of the oven and finished cooking it in the microwave

And personally, I chalk it up to people who have no idea how to structure a roster screaming into the void because “well, you saw those teams that sucked until they were good!”

Honestly, if the Wings were built the way that some of the most persistent rebuild detractors want… they’d be the Toronto Maple Leafs or the Edmonton Oilers from several years ago.

The only possible move they’ve made that you could say “hey, they got bored and wanted to be splashy” was Patrick Kane this past year. And he’s bought in enough that he signed a pretty damn reasonable deal to hang around for another year.

The Red Wings “turkey in the oven” is Marco Kasper, Nate Danielson, Carter Mazur, Moritz Seider, Sebastian Cossa, and Lucas Raymond.

If those guys hit (Seider and Raymond are pretty damn good in the NHL and the rest are tracking well in the minors/overseas), the Wings look very solid for the future. But you can’t just putter around and suck after you land a couple really good prospects that hit. Because what the hell are you doing if you’re not trying to improve the team when you get probably the #2 player out of the 2019 and 2020 drafts.