Where did Yzerman go wrong with the rebuild?

[SantosHalper]

We're lacking the kind of elite talent needed to make a deep Cup run, IMO, both on the roster and in the pipeline. Larkin is ideally a 2C on a true contender.

Disagreed. Seider's, Ed's and Ray's potential is sky high and Larkin is a PPG player, 3 years in a row. Florida's 2C was 41-point Bennett, Vegas had 53-point Karlsson, Tampa had 0.5 PPG Cirelli, Blues had 54-point Schenn. So how in the hell people still say Larkin is a 2C? It's more than realistic expectation that Danielson and Kasper can reach that 40-50 point 2C level. When Wings have PPG 1C and two 40-50 point 2C's, we don't need a perennial Art Ross-candidate center because in depth we trust. Our 200-foot game players shuts down the opponent and they will have enough skill to score the necessary goals to win.

 

[DoMakc]

Poor lottery luck followed by mediocre FA signings that made us a bubble team with no clear path forward.

We're lacking the kind of elite talent needed to make a deep Cup run, IMO, both on the roster and in the pipeline. Larkin is ideally a 2C on a true contender. Like a rocket without enough thrust, we're still on an upward trajectory, but I don't see us reaching the necessary heights without rebuilding and relaunching.

Otherwise our best hope is becoming a well-coached PITA team like Boston, that doesn't have a ton of elite talent but is a nightmare to play against. Which may very well be the plan, with guys like Danielson, Kasper, and MBN.

That's a bad take, how there is no clear path forward, when there is one:

- Integrate you prospects from your number 1 farm system into your line up
- Understand how you complent them by signing FA or trade some of your prospects for complimenting talent
- Emphasise defense and depth to compensate for not having "elite" talent

You might not like it, but there is a clear path forward

Nothing is guaranteed, but this constant whining, poor us (stupid Yzerman) didn't get a Crosby-level player is rather tiresome.

 

[Ricelund]

That's a bad take, how there is no clear path forward, when there is one:

- Integrate you prospects from your number 1 farm system into your line up
- Understand how you complent them by signing FA or trade some of your prospects for complimenting talent
- Emphasise defense and depth to compensate for not having "elite" talent

You might not like it, but there is a clear path forward

Nothing is guaranteed, but this constant whining, poor us (stupid Yzerman) didn't get a Crosby-level player is rather tiresome.

Yep. There's definitely a clear path forward, people just don't like how long that path takes. Yzerman said it in his very first press conference... patience!

 

[Frobbo]

There’s also no ”when do we start questioning the Guerinplan?” threads on main, and no one litigates their entire build if they sign a player.

Overall I agree there are similarities, however Detroit’s got a bit more in the pipeline (you don’t even mention Danielson for example), and are building a bit more from the ground up. Imo if Detroit had a player like Kaprizov fans wouldn’t be okay with the results so far.

There is tons of WTH is Guerin doing on the MN board. Much the same as on the RW board, very similiar. Not as much on the mains because MN is much lower profile is all. I also edited in a Danielson/Yurov equivilance. The rosters/prospects are at a similiar place. Is that a good thing?

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

There is tons of WTH is Guerin doing on the MN board. Much the same as on the RW board, very similiar. Not as much on the mains because MN is much lower profile is all. I also edited in a Danielson/Yurov equivilance. The rosters/prospects are at a similiar place. Is that a good thing?

A lot of the Yzerman "hate" comes from the fact that he did an amazing job building Tampa into a terror and had many massive "hits" on later round and UDFA guys. I mean, for all of the guys like Kucherov that were gangbusters, he drafted Slater Koekkoek, Brent Connolly, Cory Conacher, and a slew of other guys who ended up useless there. And then the Wings fans, rightfully, were thrilled to get the Captain back and he made some more picks and trades that were hits, like Seider and Raymond in the draft and swinging difficult trades like Mantha and stuff for Vrana and stuff (which looked great until Vrana ran into his PAP stuff that drove him off the roster).

There is also the HFboards deathknell of signing guys who the boards think suck (Chiarot, Copp, Compher, Holl) who are actually decent NHL players to term instead of slotting in Mitch Callahan or Taro Hirose or Jonatan Berggren.

Like "You're a rebuilding team, why you give Andrew Copp that contract!"

 

[FMichael]

A lot of the Yzerman "hate" comes from the fact that he did an amazing job building Tampa into a terror and had many massive "hits" on later round and UDFA guys. I mean, for all of the guys like Kucherov that were gangbusters, he drafted Slater Koekkoek, Brent Connolly, Cory Conacher, and a slew of other guys who ended up useless there. And then the Wings fans, rightfully, were thrilled to get the Captain back and he made some more picks and trades that were hits, like Seider and Raymond in the draft and swinging difficult trades like Mantha and stuff for Vrana and stuff (which looked great until Vrana ran into his PAP stuff that drove him off the roster).

There is also the HFboards deathknell of signing guys who the boards think suck (Chiarot, Copp, Compher, Holl) who are actually decent NHL players to term instead of slotting in Mitch Callahan or Taro Hirose or Jonatan Berggren.

Like "You're a rebuilding team, why you give Andrew Copp that contract!"

I always find it amusing when fans (both Red Wing and opposing) think as though we're guaranteed generational talent if we just tank 1 more season - just 1 more (ok maybe 2 more seasons).

 

[Ulysses31]

absolutely nailed 1st 3 draft picks since SY took over. lot teeters on how cossa/kasper/danielsson/asp turn out.

think if least 2/4 turn out drw b a solid perennial PO contender.

 

[DanielMarois]

Disagreed. Seider's, Ed's and Ray's potential is sky high and Larkin is a PPG player, 3 years in a row. Florida's 2C was 41-point Bennett, Vegas had 53-point Karlsson, Tampa had 0.5 PPG Cirelli, Blues had 54-point Schenn. So how in the hell people still say Larkin is a 2C? It's more than realistic expectation that Danielson and Kasper can reach that 40-50 point 2C level. When Wings have PPG 1C and two 40-50 point 2C's, we don't need a perennial Art Ross-candidate center because in depth we trust. Our 200-foot game players shuts down the opponent and they will enough skill to score the necessary goals to win.

I think the question is what will Larkin be by the time Kasper/Danielson start contributing considerig he is nearing 30.

 

[Our Lady Peace]

It's funny reading all the hate that other franchises have towards our optimism and constantly come down on us with the LaCk Of ELiTe TaLeNt hammer

At this point I'd rather be building what we are (hitting on our higher/mid 1st round picks, building and developing from the back end) than be stuck in purgatory like the Leafs with the two #1C's they have. Or all the other Eastern teams like the Sens, Devils, Sabres, Habs who all have been so turbulent netting top 3 pick(s) since 2017 yet cannot gain traction and string together at least a couple of playoff years

The "Yzerplan" has virtually become a meme to all but us. At least we have direction, and he seems to be learning from his mistakes each year (which go back to Tampa) in various facets of the roster rebuilding process

What's funny too is we're pencilling in other middling teams to beat us in the playoffs race. How do we even project that? Washington added a bunch on paper but could take a big step back as Ovi and Carlson aren't getting any younger. No Backstrom. No Kuznetsov

Islanders could plummet too. We just don't know and don't need to be dooming over the playoff cutline 9 months out, even with our defense situation up in the air currently

 

[Hockeyville USA]

A lot of the Yzerman "hate" comes from the fact that he did an amazing job building Tampa into a terror and had many massive "hits" on later round and UDFA guys. I mean, for all of the guys like Kucherov that were gangbusters, he drafted Slater Koekkoek, Brent Connolly, Cory Conacher, and a slew of other guys who ended up useless there. And then the Wings fans, rightfully, were thrilled to get the Captain back and he made some more picks and trades that were hits, like Seider and Raymond in the draft and swinging difficult trades like Mantha and stuff for Vrana and stuff (which looked great until Vrana ran into his PAP stuff that drove him off the roster).

There is also the HFboards deathknell of signing guys who the boards think suck (Chiarot, Copp, Compher, Holl) who are actually decent NHL players to term instead of slotting in Mitch Callahan or Taro Hirose or Jonatan Berggren.

Like "You're a rebuilding team, why you give Andrew Copp that contract!"

Yzerman 1st rounders in Tampa:

2010: Connolly (bum in Tampa, rushed into the NHL)
2011: Namestnikov (moderately disappointing)
2012: Koekkoek (bust), Vasilevskiy (GOD MODE)
2013: Drouin (good but still disappointing relative to expected draft slot value, good trade return)
2014: DeAngelo (known dressing room cancer before draft, waste of a pick)
2016: Howden (meh, good trade return)
2017: C. Foote (bust, last name bias led to Foote being overvalued)

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Yzerman 1st rounders in Tampa:

2010: Connolly (bum in Tampa, rushed into the NHL)
2011: Namestnikov (moderately disappointing)
2012: Koekkoek (bust), Vasilevskiy (GOD MODE)
2013: Drouin (good but still disappointing relative to expected draft slot value, good trade return)
2014: DeAngelo (known dressing room cancer before draft, waste of a pick)
2016: Howden (meh, good trade return)
2017: C. Foote (bust, last name bias led to Foote being overvalued)

I hope in ten years our first rounders don't look like this. This is utter garbage.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

I hope in ten years our first rounders don't look like this. This is utter garbage.

My thoughts on Yzerman 1st rounders in Detroit:

2019: Seider (BEAST, top 3 player in draft class)
2020: Raymond (BEAST, could/should be 90 points per season player very soon)
2021: Edvinsson (should be a solid top 4 D, might not produce as much offense as you'd want), Cossa (1A goalie, but still have to wait and see)
2022: Kasper (3C defensive forward, I have some doubts here, but plenty of time)
2023: Danielson (2C 55 points per season, reliable in every zone, tough), Sandin Pellikka (store brand Karlsson, potential to be 50 points per season PP QB, but reliable most of time in own zone too)
2024: Brandsegg Nygaard (reliable 2nd line sniper who can play in any situation)

Already that's way better than he did in Tampa, even with some projection on recent picks. But unlikely that Kris Draper can replicate Al Murray's 2nd-7th round draft steals. Yzerman will need to go GOD MODE in trades like he did in Tampa to get the Red Wings over the proverbial hump

 

[lilidk]

My thoughts on Yzerman 1st rounders in Detroit:

2019: Seider (BEAST, top 3 player in draft class)
2020: Raymond (BEAST, could/should be 90 points per season player very soon)
2021: Edvinsson (should be a solid top 4 D, might not produce as much offense as you'd want), Cossa (1A goalie, but still have to wait and see)
2022: Kasper (3C defensive forward, I have some doubts here, but plenty of time)
2023: Danielson (2C 55 points per season, reliable in every zone, tough), Sandin Pellikka (store brand Karlsson, potential to be 50 points per season PP QB, but reliable most of time in own zone too)
2024: Brandsegg Nygaard (reliable 2nd line sniper who can play in any situation)

Already that's way better than he did in Tampa, even with some projection on recent picks. But unlikely that Kris Draper can replicate Al Murray's 2nd-7th round draft steals. Yzerman will need to go GOD MODE in trades like he did in Tampa to get the Red Wings over the proverbial hump

Looks nice, but you can't compare Hadman to anyone in Red Wings . Kucherov is much better than Raymond. Can Cossa become like Vasy , big question. We are not even talking about Point and Stemer . There are plenty other reasons why Tampa is better than Red Wings will be in the couple of seasons.
Most importantly we like our prospects and very often over valued them

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Looks nice, but you can't compare Hadman to anyone in Red Wings . Kucherov is much better than Raymond. Can Cossa become like Vasy , big question. We are not even talking about Point and Stemer . There are plenty other reasons why Tampa is better than Red Wings will be in the couple of seasons.
Most importantly we like our prospects and very often over valued them

Yes, Yzerman benefitted from having Stamkos and Hedman already there. Plus veterans like St Louis and Lecavalier already there. He got lucky that Killorn (already in prospect pool when he got there) panned out. He became YzerGod with his trades in Tampa. Even the most optimistic Yzerman supporters can't really claim that he's been YzerGod in Detroit so far, still just normal Yzerman

 

[izlez]

absolutely nailed 1st 3 draft picks since SY took over. lot teeters on how cossa/kasper/danielsson/asp turn out.

think if least 2/4 turn out drw b a solid perennial PO contender.

Little too early to call that on Ed either way

 

[norrisnick]

Little too early to call that on Ed either way

Call it whenever you want, he'll be the best defenseman from that draft.

 

[Snuggs]

90 point player... How many players have the Red Wings had that reached 90 points in the last 30 years?

 

[SirloinUB]

90 point player... How many players have the Red Wings had that reached 90 points in the last 30 years?

I would call myself an optimist and even I am skeptical of some of the Raymond projections being tossed around. I love his game and growth trajectory but 90 points is tough milestone to make.

If he hits those numbers with some regularity this rebuild will be in fine shape.

 

[Henkka]

Looks nice, but you can't compare Hadman to anyone in Red Wings . Kucherov is much better than Raymond. Can Cossa become like Vasy , big question. We are not even talking about Point and Stemer . There are plenty other reasons why Tampa is better than Red Wings will be in the couple of seasons.
Most importantly we like our prospects and very often over valued them

Hedman is Seider, pretty much.

And also Rasmussen is pretty much "Killorn" at same age.

Larkin is equal to Brayden Point. Our pieces are coming, but those won't happen at same order.

Kucherov is the only outlier at Tampa drafting. Getting elite guy from lower rounds.

Yzerman 1st rounders in Tampa:

2010: Connolly (bum in Tampa, rushed into the NHL)

Connolly was never Yzerman pick. It was his "zadina" he did get rid of.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I would call myself an optimist and even I am skeptical of some of the Raymond projections being tossed around. I love his game and growth trajectory but 90 points is tough milestone to make.

If he hits those numbers with some regularity this rebuild will be in fine shape.

He was basically PPG the second half of the season, not even playing 18 minutes per game or #1PP all the time.

21 year old, top 5 draft pick.. I know 90 points sounds lofty but if you don’t think he can get there with 3-4 years until his prime, more icetime and an improved team around him, just trade him now.

 

[SantosHalper]

I think the question is what will Larkin be by the time Kasper/Danielson start contributing considerig he is nearing 30.

Only time will tell and i think the real question is, how fast Kasper/Danielson starts contributing but that could happen fast. 2-3 years from now, Larkin will be 29/30-years. Still a player in his prime. Add 21-year old MBN and 25-year old Mazur to the mix, Cat(29) and Ray(25) will be there as well. Seider 26, Ed 24, Cossa 24, ASP 22, this team will be exciting in relatively short time.

 

[SirloinUB]

He was basically PPG the second half of the season, not even playing 18 minutes per game or #1PP all the time.

21 year old, top 5 draft pick.. I know 90 points sounds lofty but if you don’t think he can get there with 3-4 years until his prime, more icetime and an improved team around him, just trade him now.

I want to set Raymond aside and talk about the philosphy here.

There is nothing wrong with having a player put up 70 points and give a solid two way game in there 22 - 28 year old seasons. Why on earth would we trade that?

I vibe with most of your posting but wtf is this?

 

[DavidpauseReinbacher]

I hope in ten years our first rounders don't look like this. This is utter garbage.

Lol muppet

 

[Oddbob]

Looks nice, but you can't compare Hadman to anyone in Red Wings . Kucherov is much better than Raymond. Can Cossa become like Vasy , big question. We are not even talking about Point and Stemer . There are plenty other reasons why Tampa is better than Red Wings will be in the couple of seasons.
Most importantly we like our prospects and very often over valued them

Seider's first 3 seasons are all better than Hedman's first 3 seasons. Not saying Seider will continue on to be as good as Hedman became, but Hedman didn't become great until season 5 of his career.

 

[lilidk]

Seider's first 3 seasons are all better than Hedman's first 3 seasons. Not saying Seider will continue on to be as good as Hedman became, but Hedman didn't become great until season 5 of his career.

Hedman started playing in NHL at 18 , only at 22 he became #1 Tampa defansman. Seider was 20 in his first NHL season and instantly he became #1 team defansman. My biggest issue with Seider that he never had Better NHL defansman to play with , to learn from .