Where did Yzerman go wrong with the rebuild?

[JohanFranzenstein]

Winning the draft lottery is guaranteed success. Just look at Edmonton. Buffalo. New Jersey. Philly.

 

[Our Lady Peace]

Winning the draft lottery is guaranteed success. Just look at Edmonton. Buffalo. New Jersey. Philly.

and Toronto, Montreal, NY Rangers, etc.

All super successful teams! Many have or will be handing out ludicrous contracts to ensure those players don't leave either!

 

[DanielMarois]

I'd have to go back and look but when people keep hauling up that stat about x number of cup winners had a top3 pick, it feels like a few get by on such technicalities. It's either some older guy they traded for or a guy they picked but was a middle6 forward while much later picks were the actual work horses.

The recent Cup winners, just limiting to at at least a #2 overall pick

TB: Stamkos , Hedman

FLA: Barkov, Ekblad

LA: Doughty

Pitts: Crosby, Malkin

Col: MacKinnon

Vegas: Eichel

Was: Ovechkin.

Not exactly fringe players.Now, this does not mean a team should tank until they get one, but it's pretty clear that most of the time you do need some top talent.

 

[Euro Twins]

Are you being serious right now? I have NEVER promoted tanking as the way to get good. I just think it's intellectually dishonest to say "Hey, we have a #1OA pick, we should be great and/or it checks off a box for a Cup winner!" when the 1OA we have is 35 years old and coming off a massive hip injury that he actually recovered from pretty well.

The Wings are doing what I think is a very good job building a roster that should be solid for a very long time and compete when they finally get some luck and pucks bounce their way. Their cap structure is close to immaculate after half a decade of being absolute shit, so now the roster needs to develop and they need to get some reinforcements through draft, FA, and trades.

No but it is you saying we can't win anything unless we have a top 2OA on our team. And when I point out we in fact have a #1OA and the arguably best American to ever lace them up you move the goal post because it didn't suit your narrative anymore.

Everyone has their own dream team and has such rose tinted glasses for all the cup winners of the last 10 years that they forget the horrible teams for years they either were or the horrible playoff records they had even with their top picks. Let's not forget top talent wants 12m+

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Why are you moving the goalposts? Winning multiple cups is a big feat in this NHL era.

80 point Barkov is ELITE? Tkcachuk is elite??? Didn't Flames basically give him away? Bobrovosky basically HAS Chris Osgood numbers and nobody calls Osgood "ELITE".

Your definition of 'elite' is very loose. Hard to take your argument seriously.

Yzerman can use FLA as a blueprint on how to build his DRWs team with the resources he has. He does not need to tank, but rather make some moves when the timing is right. If Cossa turns out and a good trade happens along with our top prospects becoming as advertised, Yzerman will have this team well on it's way to compete for a cup. I feel like Yzerman has this team close to striking distance as he injects more kids.

But you want to talk about Detroit becoming another almighty Dynasty in the nu:NHL where that's nearly impossible. Perhaps you should set realistic expectations so you're not constantly disappointed. Take a breath and enjoy life. Wings are on their way up, but the days of being 'world beaters' are gone! Bettman ensured those days are over.

What's your definition of elite?

Is it points in a season? Example, 96 or 97 or 104 or 109?

My definition is the proven ability to put up 90 plus pts(not pace, actually having achieved)...

If the measure is McDavid, then the DRW have never had an elite player..

 

[norrisnick]

What's your definition of elite?

Is it points in a season? Example, 96 or 97 or 104 or 109?

My definition is the proven ability to put up 90 plus pts(not pace, actually having achieved)...

If the measure is McDavid, then the DRW have never had an elite player..

Apart from the handful who were of course.

 

[SantosHalper]

Which club has won multiple cups? I can't see SY wanting a one and done situation...besides, Florida has multiple "elite" players in Barkov, Tkachuk and Bobrovosky

Thats funny because "elite" Florida scored 268 goals during the during the regular season and "mediocre" Detroit scored 278 goals. Defense makes the difference, Florida allowed second least goals in NHL and the direction where Wings are heading, defense should be our biggest weapon. Im not worried about scoring one bit, if the team Wings had last season could score nearly 280, players from current pool should be able to get near that.
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Why people are so obsessed over draft overall numbers? It's the "re-draft number" what really matters more in a long run. At this point it looks like Wings got two "2nd overalls", Seider and Raymond and a "3rd overall" DeBrincat. Several other players just getting started.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Apart from the handful who were of course.

If the definition is McDavid then no we have not..

That said, he is not the definition and therefore I agree with you

 

[norrisnick]

If the definition is McDavid then no we have not..

That said, he is not the definition and therefore I agree with you

We have. Whether he is the definition or not.

And I don't agree with you.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Thats funny because "elite" Florida scored 268 goals during the during the regular season and "mediocre" Detroit scored 278 goals. Defense makes the difference, Florida allowed second least goals in NHL and the direction where Wings are heading, defense should be our biggest weapon. Im not worried about scoring one bit, if the team Wings had last season could score nearly 280, players from current pool should be able to get near that.
-------------------------------------------------------

Why people are so obsessed over draft overall numbers? It's the "re-draft number" what really matters more in a long run. At this point it looks like Wings got two "2nd overalls", Seider and Raymond and a "3rd overall" DeBrincat. Several other players just getting started.

Alot of strange takes going on here...if folks wants to argue that Florida does not have elite players then fill your boots...

When Detroit has multiple roster players who have and are capable again of putting up 95plus pts and playing incredible D and winning Vezinas then our imitation of their formula will be complete.

We have. Whether he is the definition or not.

And I don't agree with you.

Who...Howe?

SY never was as good or dominant

 

[FMichael]

Lol, Rebuild 4ever!

We're bound to have generational talent by continuing the suck!

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

No but it is you saying we can't win anything unless we have a top 2OA on our team. And when I point out we in fact have a #1OA and the arguably best American to ever lace them up you move the goal post because it didn't suit your narrative anymore.

Everyone has their own dream team and has such rose tinted glasses for all the cup winners of the last 10 years that they forget the horrible teams for years they either were or the horrible playoff records they had even with their top picks. Let's not forget top talent wants 12m+

No, it's not. It's quite literally not. You really ought to read the posts that people make. In fact I just said I like the way that the Wings are doing it and that they're setting themselves up now to be a continuous presence again as soon as more guys develop and they potentially get lucky with draft picks, FA, and trade adds.

I honestly feel like I'm taking crazy pills being called out for saying that the Red Wings need to suck to get draft picks.

I was just saying that adding Patrick Kane at the tail end of his career for two years (probably) is a damn sight different than picking Connor McDavid or Nathan MacKinnon and geting their first decade of hockey. That's the only thing I was referencing about a 1OA. That adding Kane with a f***ed up hip and him recovering to play well is a bonus and not some prerequisite to being a good team.

It's awesome that they added Kane. I love watching him on the ice. It's super cool that he's in the Winged Wheel. He's also demonstrably not the same Patrick Kane that Chicago had for a decade.

There isn't anything about a dream team going on. I want Yzerman to do exactly what he's been doing since 2019. The Red Wings are so much better setup for positive longevity now than they were in the waning years of Ken Holland. Shit man, I liked adding Copp and Compher. I had my doubts on Chiarot and I didn't particularly care for Holl... but I'm one of the people saying "YES, let's add veterans so guys like Raymond and Kasper and Danielson and Seider don't have to carry all of the weight while they are still developing.

 

[Euro Twins]

No, it's not. It's quite literally not. You really ought to read the posts that people make. In fact I just said I like the way that the Wings are doing it and that they're setting themselves up now to be a continuous presence again as soon as more guys develop and they potentially get lucky with draft picks, FA, and trade adds.

I honestly feel like I'm taking crazy pills being called out for saying that the Red Wings need to suck to get draft picks.

I was just saying that adding Patrick Kane at the tail end of his career for two years (probably) is a damn sight different than picking Connor McDavid or Nathan MacKinnon and geting their first decade of hockey. That's the only thing I was referencing about a 1OA. That adding Kane with a f***ed up hip and him recovering to play well is a bonus and not some prerequisite to being a good team.

It's awesome that they added Kane. I love watching him on the ice. It's super cool that he's in the Winged Wheel. He's also demonstrably not the same Patrick Kane that Chicago had for a decade.

There isn't anything about a dream team going on. I want Yzerman to do exactly what he's been doing since 2019. The Red Wings are so much better setup for positive longevity now than they were in the waning years of Ken Holland. Shit man, I liked adding Copp and Compher. I had my doubts on Chiarot and I didn't particularly care for Holl... but I'm one of the people saying "YES, let's add veterans so guys like Raymond and Kasper and Danielson and Seider don't have to carry all of the weight while they are still developing.

Kane is a ppg player at 4-6.5m and he will be even better this year. Don't forget we won in 02 with a bunch of old slow vets at the tail end of their careers.

I'm just saying that you don't need a McDavid to win. Evidence by the fact that Florida just won with barkov who is essentially Larkin, tkatchuk, and Bob who has been wildly inconsistent the last several years.

 

[DoMakc]

Alot of strange takes going on here...if folks wants to argue that Florida does not have elite players then fill your boots...

When Detroit has multiple roster players who have and are capable again of putting up 95plus pts and playing incredible D and winning Vezinas then our imitation of their formula will be complete.


Who...Howe?

SY never was as good or dominant

Come on, Howe is the best player not called Gretzky, Yzerman has literally scored more in season than McDavid ever did (or anybody not named Gretzky and Lemeiux), Fedorov and Abel won Harts, Lidström was the best player in the NHL between 1998 and 2009. Maybe you should learn about a thing or two about team you are supporting.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Kane is a ppg player at 4-6.5m and he will be even better this year. Don't forget we won in 02 with a bunch of old slow vets at the tail end of their careers.

I'm just saying that you don't need a McDavid to win. Evidence by the fact that Florida just won with barkov who is essentially Larkin, tkatchuk, and Bob who has been wildly inconsistent the last several years.

I hate that I'm having to argue against the Wings here but...

Barkov is not "essentially Larkin". Aleksander Barkov is a perennial Selke finalist. He has over 200 more points in only 80 more games than Larkin. He's more Pavel Datsyuk than Dylan Larkin.

Sergei Bobrovski may have been inconsistent, but when he's right... he's like 4x better than anyone Detroit has had in net. He's a legitimate game-stealing goalie when he's on. The last guy the Wings had that was remotely as talented was Mrazek and Mrazek was a god damn headcase that I wouldn't trust with a pair of safety scissors.

And Matthew Tkachuk is a 100 point forward who finished 3rd in Hart voting the year before last.

There is a lot of hand-waving going on in your post that I'm not remotely comfortable with.

And yeah, Kane was near-PPG last year and will probably be better with a full year. But if he ends up at 80 points, which would be a hell of a year and Larkin gets to 80.. they're still behind Barkov and Tkachuk if they repeat their years.

Lastly, in 2002... the league still enforced the two-line pass rule and basically any successful team played a neutral zone trap. The game, by its nature, was a slow game then. It was, by design, a game tailor-made to what the Hall of Fame Wings did well. Controlled entries, subtle interference, and choking the life out of the other team. What worked in 2002 will not work in 2024.

 

[Henkka]

Why people are so obsessed over draft overall numbers? It's the "re-draft number" what really matters more in a long run. At this point it looks like Wings got two "2nd overalls", Seider and Raymond and a "3rd overall" DeBrincat. Several other players just getting started.

You nailed it.

Seider is already Top2 player from his draft, I could care less what his real draft position was.

Same for Raymond. I think I would take only Stutzle before him at re-draft.

So already have Top2-3 talents from their drafts. Nothing to worry about. And will add those talents more until the guys are ready.

That's the damn Yzerplan he talks all the time. He likes to build that young nucleus from our best own picks. People aren't just enough patient to wait for it.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Thats funny because "elite" Florida scored 268 goals during the during the regular season and "mediocre" Detroit scored 278 goals. Defense makes the difference, Florida allowed second least goals in NHL and the direction where Wings are heading, defense should be our biggest weapon. Im not worried about scoring one bit, if the team Wings had last season could score nearly 280, players from current pool should be able to get near that.
-------------------------------------------------------

Why people are so obsessed over draft overall numbers? It's the "re-draft number" what really matters more in a long run. At this point it looks like Wings got two "2nd overalls", Seider and Raymond and a "3rd overall" DeBrincat. Several other players just getting started.

Because they're dumb. I somehow got tarred in the caring about draft slot number because I pointed out that signing Kane at the end of his career is not "adding a 1OA", it's adding a really damn good hockey player who is too old to be part of a long term core. The Wings only got him last year because there were serious concerns about his hip. Now, he liked it in Detroit and was encouraged by the play of their youngsters and that he can make a playoff push here... but Kane is a piece who will be gone next year... or at the very extent the following year. He's a fancy hat that gives +2 power on the avatar that is the Detroit Red Wings rebuild. Super cool and will definitely help out... but eminently replaceable in the coming years when younger pieces level up.

 

[Winger98]

The recent Cup winners, just limiting to at at least a #2 overall pick

TB: Stamkos , Hedman

FLA: Barkov, Ekblad

LA: Doughty

Pitts: Crosby, Malkin

Col: MacKinnon

Vegas: Eichel

Was: Ovechkin.

Not exactly fringe players.Now, this does not mean a team should tank until they get one, but it's pretty clear that most of the time you do need some top talent.

Some of those are not like the others, though. All are talented, but Barkov, Ekblad, and Eichel are not in the same tier as Stamkos, Crosby, etc. Good, but not HOF good, which is how I think some people throw around the top2/3 thing too often. We put a better team around our guys, they continue to mature into vet players, and I think the gap between those first three and guys like Larkin, Raymond, Seider, etc. will begin to narrow.

I don't think anyone is saying we don't need top talent, but I do think the guys we have are either at or closer to being "top talent" than some like to give credit to.

 

[odin1981]

I've seen many relative ratings versus draft picks height from 2000-2013, and it was Top10 drafting versus other organizations. Like, there was not maybe a superstar after Pavel and Z, but it wasn't bad either.

Biggest problem was traded 1st round picks in the success window. Those lower round picks were mostly great vs. average.

Others were worse.

On Wright era, they only got Larkin, as a bit of lucky.

I don't understand why Wright gets credit for him (Larkin) he didn't find crap. He was in our backyard for close to 4 years before he was drafted usdt and u of m.

We where honestly lucky to have him at 15. Only because of him playing behind the Buffalo center (Eichel) Because he was the 2nd line center at USDT during those years. If he was top line center, he would have went way before we got a chance to take him.

If I remember correctly Wright was also hired only like 1-2 months before the draft if I recall correctly.

 

[Euro Twins]

I hate that I'm having to argue against the Wings here but...

Barkov is not "essentially Larkin". Aleksander Barkov is a perennial Selke finalist. He has over 200 more points in only 80 more games than Larkin. He's more Pavel Datsyuk than Dylan Larkin.

Sergei Bobrovski may have been inconsistent, but when he's right... he's like 4x better than anyone Detroit has had in net. He's a legitimate game-stealing goalie when he's on. The last guy the Wings had that was remotely as talented was Mrazek and Mrazek was a god damn headcase that I wouldn't trust with a pair of safety scissors.

And Matthew Tkachuk is a 100 point forward who finished 3rd in Hart voting the year before last.

There is a lot of hand-waving going on in your post that I'm not remotely comfortable with.

And yeah, Kane was near-PPG last year and will probably be better with a full year. But if he ends up at 80 points, which would be a hell of a year and Larkin gets to 80.. they're still behind Barkov and Tkachuk if they repeat their years.

Lastly, in 2002... the league still enforced the two-line pass rule and basically any successful team played a neutral zone trap. The game, by its nature, was a slow game then. It was, by design, a game tailor-made to what the Hall of Fame Wings did well. Controlled entries, subtle interference, and choking the life out of the other team. What worked in 2002 will not work in 2024.

Well barkov had 80 points this season and tkatchuk 88. Let's not talk about past seasons let's talk about when they won the cup. Larkin took about 5 years to hit his stride in the league but he is a ppg 2 way center that is highly underrated both in the league and by wings fans.

Kane is called Showtime and has 3 cups for a reason. Trying to twist that because of his age and surgery is fair but so far he's already proved everyone wrong including myself.

Our goalie needs improving but realistically if Raymond takes another big step this year we are going to be in awesome shape to make the playoffs and maybe win a round or 2 depending how lucky we get.

No we're not winning the cup with this roster but acting like we needs a 24 year old first overall pick to do that is silly.

Would you rather have Yakupov (1st OA 2012) or kucherov (58th OA 2011)?

Which player helps you win a cup?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Come on, Howe is the best player not called Gretzky, Yzerman has literally scored more in season than McDavid ever did (or anybody not named Gretzky and Lemeiux), Fedorov and Abel won Harts, Lidström was the best player in the NHL between 1998 and 2009. Maybe you should learn about a thing or two about team you are supporting.

The second an individual becomes condescending their inferiority complex shines through..

I'm well aware of the elite players who have played in Detroit.. their is no question of that..

My opinion, McDavid is and will go down as a top 5 or 6 player of all time...we can disagree and that's fair and welcomed but don't resort to attempting to belittle the other..

 

[Euro Twins]

You nailed it.

Seider is already Top2 player from his draft, I could care less what his real draft position was.

Same for Raymond. I think I would take only Stutzle before him at re-draft.

So already have Top2-3 talents from their drafts. Nothing to worry about. And will add those talents more until the guys are ready.

That's the damn Yzerplan he talks all the time. He likes to build that young nucleus from our best own picks. People aren't just enough patient to wait for it.

Yup this is absolutely what I do not understand.

Redraft =
1. Hughes
2. Seider

Redraft =
1. Stutzle
2. Raymond

Edvinsson draft TBD

Getting caught up on a draft number is problematic because it makes a guy like kaapo kakko (2) seem like a more valuable asset than seider (6)

It also makes it seem like our most valuable player in 08 was Stuart because he was drafted 3OA even though our stars were 6,7,4,10 round players.

 

[TheOctopusKid]

The start of the 2026 Season will make us look close the 99 Dallas Stars:

Larkin (Modano)
Debrincat (Hull)
Raymond (Lehtinen)
Danielsson (Nieuwendyk)
Brandsegg-Nygard (Lagenbrunner)

Kasper (Morrow)
Mazur/Lombardi (Verbeek/Keane/Carbonneu/Mueller)

Seider (Hatcher)
Edvinsson (Sydor)
ASP (Zubov)

Cossa (Belfor)
Augustine (Turek)

These aren't all exactly comparable here but the point is generally more this - that was a tough team to play against. They were built around an incredible D of Hatcher, Matvichuk - real monsters, paired with some smooth skating partners in Sydor and Zubov. Had Eddie the Eagle and their backups were always really solid too. Our D is going to be great and it's going to stand on the backs of giants (Seider, Edvinsson) and will have some real offensive upside guys (ASP, Willander,

And I just remember that that top line just has Hull ripping snipes, Modano just pushing up ice and had the second scariest wrist shot outside of Sakic, and Jere on the other wing just... being really smart and could be the best offensive or defensive player on that line when they needed it. (Debrincat - Larkin - Raymond).

And the depth of that team was what felt like...just a crazy mix-and-match of middle six forwards that all seemed like... physical try-hards, who could all jam in a goal. Like they came in slightly different flavors like Nieuwendyk was obviously a smooth passer and Morrow was incredibly physical - Verbeek was speedier and smaller than the rest, etc. - but they all we're cut from the same cloth - aggressive, physical, and all could score. If that doesn't describe MBN, Kasper, Danielsson, Mazur, Lombardi, Rasmussen, etc. - I don't know what does.

Like I said, it's a perfect comp - but close enough for me to be excited in the direction of this team:

A true top line - a 'hard to play against' middle six full of two-way, versatile, physical forwards - all built on the back of an outstanding goalie, and a well-balanced Top 4 D.

We are two years from this.

 

[kliq]

No but it is you saying we can't win anything unless we have a top 2OA on our team. And when I point out we in fact have a #1OA and the arguably best American to ever lace them up you move the goal post because it didn't suit your narrative anymore.

Everyone has their own dream team and has such rose tinted glasses for all the cup winners of the last 10 years that they forget the horrible teams for years they either were or the horrible playoff records they had even with their top picks. Let's not forget top talent wants 12m+

Just to add to this, while Seider wasn’t actually picked #1 overall, he was a #1 overall talent. Had we picked #1 or #2 and taken him there, it doesn’t change anything. I think the point of that stat is that you need to have elite talent on your team which usually goes #1 or #2. If you get the elite talent at #4,5,6 etc. it’s ultimately the same thing.

 

[DanielMarois]

Yup this is absolutely what I do not understand.

Redraft =
1. Hughes
2. Seider

Redraft =
1. Stutzle
2. Raymond

Edvinsson draft TBD

Getting caught up on a draft number is problematic because it makes a guy like kaapo kakko (2) seem like a more valuable asset than seider (6)

It also makes it seem like our most valuable player in 08 was Stuart because he was drafted 3OA even though our stars were 6,7,4,10 round players.

I don't think anyone is saying that the focus should be on a particular number in terms of where someone was drafted , but that the truly top talent is usually at the very top of the draft. Seider and Raymond may get to that point, but right now they are "top 2" talents of their draft years because there were many busts in the top 5 those years.