Where did Yzerman go wrong with the rebuild?

[Henkka]

Hedman started playing in NHL at 18 , only at 22 he became #1 Tampa defansman. Seider was 20 in his first NHL season and instantly he became #1 team defansman. My biggest issue with Seider that he never had Better NHL defansman to play with , to learn from .

Hedman's seasons as 21-22-23 year-old (Seider is now)

180gp, 22+76 = 98 points, -3, 22:43 ice-time
0.54 points per game.

Seider
246gp, 21+113 = 134 points, -27, 22:51 ice-time
0.54 points per game.

It's quite equal, and Seider has has lesser teams and those 2 seasons with less experience.

Prime Kronwall scored at same level at 2012-2013-2014 as young Hedman on those years.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I want to set Raymond aside and talk about the philosphy here.

There is nothing wrong with having a player put up 70 points and give a solid two way game in there 22 - 28 year old seasons. Why on earth would we trade that?

I vibe with most of your posting but wtf is this?

Because we’re going to sign him to a contract that says we think he can be more, and 31 other NHL teams likely think he can be more and would value him as such in a trade. If he never improves (which is extremely unrealistic), this is as good as his value will be.

 

[SirloinUB]

Because we’re going to sign him to a contract that says we think he can be more, and 31 other NHL teams likely think he can be more and would value him as such in a trade. If he never improves (which is extremely unrealistic), this is as good as his value will be.

At his age, I'm keeping Raymond as building block for this team whether he is a 70 point player or a 90 point player. That's not to say he is untouchable if Makar or McDavid (or a few other players) became available.

My real point is Raymond is a nice building block block for this team even if he doesn't progress.

 

[raymond23]

Trying to put a ceiling on Raymond is wild. It shows we haven’t had a young superstar in the organization in quite some time

He’s coming off his 21 year old season where he led the team in scoring (a team that finished top 10 in goals for). Multiple incredibly clutch moments, highlight real goals, overtime hat trick winners… he’s been doing this since he was 16 years old at the u18s and leading Sweden to a gold medal (another overtime hat trick winner)

Somehow the kid is still being slept on

 

[SirloinUB]

Trying to put a ceiling on Raymond is wild. It shows we haven’t had a young superstar in the organization in quite some time

He’s coming off his 21 year old season where he led the team in scoring (a team that finished top 10 in goals for). Multiple incredibly clutch moments, highlight real goals, overtime hat trick winners… he’s been doing this since he was 16 years old at the u18s and leading Sweden to a gold medal (another overtime hat trick winner)

Somehow the kid is still being slept on

I am absolutely not putting a ceiling on Raymond but I prefer to not count my 90 point chickens before they have hatched.

 

[The Zermanator]

The more I think about it, the more absurd this entire thread feels.

Am I the only one who's incredibly optimistic about this team's prospects for the next decade? And I mean prospects in the sense of the team's future potential, not about drafted player prospects.

We have Seider and Raymond already tearing it up in the NHL, with more potential for improvement to boot. We've got Edvinsson loaded up and ready to go next season. Berggren and Johansson may carve out important roles for themselves as well. And this should more or less be the case for the foreseeable future, working in high-end youth to the roster every season. Cossa's getting close, Kasper and Danielson are getting close, ASP and MBN won't be far behind. There's also Mazur, Wallinder, Augustine, and a handful of other not-quite-blue chip prospects that could also surprise. And we have a fantastic leader in Larkin to provide a veteran presence (feels weird to say) and model what a pro should be.

Where did Yzerman go wrong with the rebuild? Well he's signed a handful of less than stellar contracts, none of which have hampered the team thus far and will likely come off the books before any harm is done. That's it, really.

Where did Yzerman go right with the rebuild? See above. We have one of the best 10 year outlook's in the league, IMO. I'm just enjoying the show and am both bemused and amused at all the Chicken Little sky-is-falling doomerism going on around here.

 

[Euro Twins]

Detroit completely forgot the most important part, acquire elite talent phase. Which leads us to the purgatory phase. Signing veteran players that are just good enough to keep us out of the bottom of the league, not good enough to consistently make the playoffs.

Rebuilding sometimes takes a few tries. Colorado had Duchene and O'Reilly, and it didn't workout so they had to tank a few more years to get Mackinnon/Rantanen/Makar. A core that is good enough to consistently win a cup.
Tampa got Stamkos/Kucherov/Point/Hedman
Florida got Barkov/Ekblad/Huberdeau
Toronto had Kessel and then Matthews/Marner/Nylander
Pittsburgh got Crosby and Malkin
Washington got Ovechkin and Backstrom
Edmonton got Mcdavid/Draisaitl/RNH

Seider is elite. Larkin and Raymond are legit first liners but none of them are good enough to be on this list as core pieces on a contender.

Who did Vegas have again? What about st Louis? Since we're cherry picking. What about LA?

Let's also not forget that you mentioned ovie/Backstrom. A duo that failed to even get past the second round every year but one. And even that took 11 years of them together. They've only gotten out of the second round 1 singular time in their careers. They got a cup though so you can look back with rose tinted glasses.

 

[raymond23]

Who did Vegas have again? What about st Louis? Since we're cherry picking. What about LA?

Let's also not forget that you mentioned ovie/Backstrom. A duo that failed to even get past the second round every year but one. And even that took 11 years of them together. They've only gotten out of the second round 1 singular time in their careers. They got a cup though so you can look back with rose tinted glasses.

Yep. Let's also talk about all the teams that have tanked multiple times and haven't gotten that same level of success. Because that list is endless...

 

[Euro Twins]

Yep. Let's also talk about all the teams that have tanked multiple times and haven't gotten that same level of success. Because that list is endless...

Like the very same Oilers that were mentioned that only made the playoffs 1 time between 2007-2019

They 4 first overall picks, a 3,4,6,7,8, &10 in that time. And it still took them 17 years to make the finals. Took 15 years to make the conference finals.

But we don't mention that when cherry picking stats.

Somehow the wings were supposed to get a McDavid and drai when we got shanked as hard as possible for 4 years in the draft lottery

 

[The Zermanator]

Who did Vegas have again? What about st Louis? Since we're cherry picking. What about LA?

Let's also not forget that you mentioned ovie/Backstrom. A duo that failed to even get past the second round every year but one. And even that took 11 years of them together. They've only gotten out of the second round 1 singular time in their careers. They got a cup though so you can look back with rose tinted glasses.

I can't even imagine looking at a list of Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson, Cossa, Kasper, Danielson, ASP, MBN, Augustine, Mazur, Wallinder and the plethora of 2nd tier prospects we have and considering the rebuild a failure that needs to be re-booted just because we don't have a MacKinnon or McDavid. Too many people around here making the perfect the enemy of the good.

 

[Perfect Human]

I love that this thread still exists and is regularly posted in

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I can't even imagine looking at a list of Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson, Cossa, Kasper, Danielson, ASP, MBN, Augustine, Mazur, Wallinder and the plethora of 2nd tier prospects we have and considering the rebuild a failure that needs to be re-booted just because we don't have a MacKinnon or McDavid. Too many people around here making the perfect the enemy of the good.

I don't think people appreciate all that would really need to be shed to make them as bad as some want them to be. It isn't accomplished by simply moving Larkin. You also need to move Seider and other pieces people will want to hold onto.

 

[Euro Twins]

I can't even imagine looking at a list of Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson, Cossa, Kasper, Danielson, ASP, MBN, Augustine, Mazur, Wallinder and the plethora of 2nd tier prospects we have and considering the rebuild a failure that needs to be re-booted just because we don't have a MacKinnon or McDavid. Too many people around here making the perfect the enemy of the good.

It's like the spoiled rich kid that gets a brand new car for their 16th birthday and they make a huge scene throwing a fit because it's not the 120k BMW they wanted....

 

[The Zermanator]

It's like the spoiled rich kid that gets a brand new car for their 16th birthday and they make a huge scene throwing a fit because it's not the 120k BMW they wanted....

...and then intentionally crashing it so that they have a chance at maybe getting a better new car.

 

[Euro Twins]

...and then intentionally crashing it so that they have a chance at maybe getting a better new car.

That ends up having multiple engine issues and recalls. So you end up trading it in for another shiny new toy

 

[DanielMarois]

The more I think about it, the more absurd this entire thread feels.

Am I the only one who's incredibly optimistic about this team's prospects for the next decade? And I mean prospects in the sense of the team's future potential, not about drafted player prospects.

We have Seider and Raymond already tearing it up in the NHL, with more potential for improvement to boot. We've got Edvinsson loaded up and ready to go next season. Berggren and Johansson may carve out important roles for themselves as well. And this should more or less be the case for the foreseeable future, working in high-end youth to the roster every season. Cossa's getting close, Kasper and Danielson are getting close, ASP and MBN won't be far behind. There's also Mazur, Wallinder, Augustine, and a handful of other not-quite-blue chip prospects that could also surprise. And we have a fantastic leader in Larkin to provide a veteran presence (feels weird to say) and model what a pro should be.

Where did Yzerman go wrong with the rebuild? Well he's signed a handful of less than stellar contracts, none of which have hampered the team thus far and will likely come off the books before any harm is done. That's it, really.

Where did Yzerman go right with the rebuild? See above. We have one of the best 10 year outlook's in the league, IMO. I'm just enjoying the show and am both bemused and amused at all the Chicken Little sky-is-falling doomerism going on around here.

The key over the next decade will be just what kind of impact Kasper and Danielson make. I don't think anyone can be certain either way, but to think that it's a guarantee that both will become very good two-way players is also being a bit optimistic. And I think that's where the concern is, after five years there's still quite a bit of uncertainty.

 

[Our Lady Peace]

Sure, it's real nice to get a MacKinnon. Everyone loves that thrill. Then you pick 10th in a deep draft and get a Rantanen. It's also nice when you swing for the fence at 4th for a Makar who wins a Hobey Baker, Calder, Norris, and Conn Smythe before his 24th birthday

Then you forget about the panic of how for the next 3 years after his rookie year, MacKinnon looked like a "bust" around these parts

...You forget that Makar was drafted out of an Alberta junior league as a late birthday and was seen as a major gamble vs the players left on the board

...You forget that you rushed a smallish BCHLer Jost to the NHL and he busted in not long after

...You forget you had Matt Duchene and Gabe Landeskog picked in the top 3 before your 2013 #1 OA pick was secured

It's easy to forget about the suffering these "lucky" teams went through despite their subsequent successes. Tampa is in a similar boat, as we know with what Yzerman inherited there. Didn't even win a cup until he left. Took 11 years after drafting Stamkos + Hedman to win that cup

Detroit has obviously not had the same fortune as Tampa, Colorado, Edmonton, Toronto, etc. Instead, it was masked by scraping every inch of crap out of the barrell while we hung onto the glory of a quarter century playoff streak. Shit lottery luck and all

Draft-wise, we've laid low and not gotten caught up in the hype, much like Holland did when Zadina fell to him. I'm sure Yzerman seeing Trevor Zegras on the board in 2019 sure looked realgud, but instead we drafted a monster RHD who won a Calder trophy 3 years post draft and is the only player from that class to have won an individual NHL award

We stick to trusting our own judgement, which involves an extremely valuable and decades-long tie to Swedish pro hockey. So far, we're seeing excellent early returns on our best picks. Many of which have gone through the SHL

Roster construction is pretty solid at this point, considering the tight cap landscape of the NHL these days, as well as integrating our developed draft picks. Hopefully the Wings make the playoffs, but I expect more turbulence this season. That top 4 RHD is a need obviously, but training camp is still 2 months away. We'll see what transpires

Yzerman is pretty low-key so I'll wait out the summer and keep checking in on the MBN thread and learn the correct pronunciation of his name

 

[dalem177]

I love that this thread still exists and is regularly posted in

 

[Dotter]

Regarding the state of the RW rebuild think a bit of the Minnesota Wild. I am not a fan of either team but I am more familiar with each than I am of most of the other teams. There are a lot of equivilancies between the two roster's pipelines/youth. Some favor the RWs some the Wild.
Larkin/Kaprizov
Wallstadt/Cossa-Augustine
Ohgren/Kasper
Boldy/Raymond
Faber/Seider
Z Buim/ASP
Heidt/MBN
Rossi/Dcat?
Danielson/Yurov

There is no equivilant for Ed but Mn is going to open $14 million in cap space next year. My point is nobody is saying how great a job Guerin is doing in Minnesota. He is making the playoffs (usually) and building for the future while SY is... Barely keeping up with Guerin is faint praise IMO.

^ lazy comparison., if not a bit insulting.

 

[Dotter]

Comparing us to Florida is fine but where is our Matthew Tkachuk coming from? And Larkin isn't Barkov yet.

Where did Panthers get their Matthew Tkachuk? Where did the cup winning Vegas get their Jack Eichel?

Drafting is just a partial way to building a cup winning team... The "Yzerplan" is coming along nicely, but he still has work to do.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Where did Panthers get their Matthew Tkachuk? Where did the cup winning Vegas get their Jack Eichel?

Drafting is just a partial way to building a cup winning team... The "Yzerplan" is coming along nicely, but he still has work to do.

They were traded for high value assets, it is important to get that right but Yzerman is approaching that phase I would hope.

 

[rangersblues]

Where did Panthers get their Matthew Tkachuk? Where did the cup winning Vegas get their Jack Eichel?

Drafting is just a partial way to building a cup winning team... The "Yzerplan" is coming along nicely, but he still has work to do.

Unless you get extremely fortunate in the draft it's the way to do it. Which is precisely why you need cap space so you can strike quickly if such a move becomes available.

 

[Dotter]

Unless you get extremely fortunate in the draft it's the way to do it. Which is precisely why you need cap space so you can strike quickly if such a move becomes available.

I think having more NHL teams in the league, more trade possibilities like these are going to open up. Havning cap space is crucial. Yzerman seems to understand this very well. Wings have flexible cap space and Yzerman can make moves to free up cash if needed.

I think if a young Jack Eichel or Matt Tkchuck situation came along, Yzerman would be ready to pounce. Imagine what this team would look like with a one, two punch of Eichel and Larkin = 100 point team.

 

[abj]

Detroit needs some new variants in the squad to renewal the team with hockey talent.

Lyon was first choice last season.

Lyon continue as first choice as goalkeeper?

Two goalkeeper rivals.

Talbot and Husso or Campbell.

 

[Dotter]

Also, my rebuttal to the guys saying DRWs don't have elite talent. If 'elite' means McDavid, Matthew, McKinnon, then you're right. But you're wrong thinking you 'need' them. Wings have star players in the making in Seider and Raymond, and we still have some up-and-coming talent in the system. Where those guys top out is a guess.

Yzerman seems comfortable with these kids. Oh, and by the way, he only has Lidstrom, Kronwall, Fischer, Draper, Cleary telling him how these kids are progressing. My gut tells me Yzerman's guys who are overseeing these kids development might be pretty damn well cued in on what we have.

So being "bored" with the rebuild might be merely "Yzerman thinks they have the right kids to push for a cup" in the system who are on an upward trajectory.

How not to build a cup winning team; Toronto Maple Leafs.
How to build a cup winning team; smothering SOB team to play against.

....but the internet message forum says "you need a McDavid to win a cup", even though facts and past cup winning champions show that is almost always not true. A good goalie is more important to have than a McDavid or a Matthews. ....and Cossa and Augustine are looking pretty g'dam good!